True HP Aero For 2011

[Mike Young]

I gotta say, I think I could throw together a wood framed rig in about 1/4 the time, but if you're sure you have a solid plan... I think you may benefit from toying around with something a little more pliable before setting it in stone. Or in your case, fiberglass. But, if ya feel solid enough about it, do it! I got this hot tub thing from a buddy of mine. It's made from super dense styrofoam, about 5' in diameter, 3' tall, & octagon in shape. It's made of these panels that slide together at the corners with plastic fasteners. All it needs is a top & a bottom. I'll slap it together & snap a pic or two. Could help ya in your design.

 

[Trichy Bastard]

thats a clever idea...i would work with the aluminum layer first and make sure it bonds properly to the glass and resin..with fiberglass rigs its all about your mix

Thanks for the tips- I've found in the past that a heat gun or blowtorch helps work the bubbles out (light braising fof course as not not melt the styrofoam). I would adhere the foil and styrofoam via spray adhesive, and then just encase the whole structure in an envelope of fiberglass.

I gotta say, I think I could throw together a wood framed rig in about 1/4 the time, but if you're sure you have a solid plan... I think you may benefit from toying around with something a little more pliable before setting it in stone. Or in your case, fiberglass. But, if ya feel solid enough about it, do it! I got this hot tub thing from a buddy of mine. It's made from super dense styrofoam, about 5' in diameter, 3' tall, & octagon in shape. It's made of these panels that slide together at the corners with plastic fasteners. All it needs is a top & a bottom. I'll slap it together & snap a pic or two. Could help ya in your design.

Thanks mike- that would be interesting if not too much trouble. I am still on the fence if I should just so a simple styrofoam build first time around to get going- then go more fancy later once I know the specs are correct...

 

[mrflamboynt]

well, i know for a fact that sound waves can be substantially reduced by a few layers of material comprised of different density, but i dont think light behaves this way..... 1 layer of hard insulation foam "properly sealed" should provide enough strength and be light-tight! depending on the size of the enclosure, may require minor internal bracing..... thinner material can work aswell as long as the enclosure is properly braced....

 

[Trichy Bastard]

well, i know for a fact that sound waves can be substantially reduced by a few layers of material comprised of different density, but i dont think light behaves this way..... 1 layer of hard insulation foam "properly sealed" should provide enough strength and be light-tight! depending on the size of the enclosure, may require minor internal bracing..... thinner material can work aswell as long as the enclosure is properly braced....

Okay thanks- I just imagined that the white styrofoam sheeting may let some light through- and as mentioned, the foil may form a radiant barrier, although there wont be an air gap between it and the foam, which is apparently necessary to increase the R-value. Besides roots probably not liking light, I also want it dark in there to discourage algea and biofilms from proliferating.

I am still tossing ideas around, I don't want to make this more complicated than it has to be, but I do want a good chamber design.

 

[mrflamboynt]

instead of the white chunky beer-cooler-foam, why not use thick home insulation foam? harder stuff that comes in 4'x8' sheets.... it will be dense enough to block all light and is fairly rigid for "foam".... i have assembled mock subwoofer enclosures using it, with a little bit of strategic bracing, its rigid enough for a 1,000 watt 15" sub.... but plants wont need anything that strong will they? foam is easy to modify, then once you find the "perfect design", you can duplicate it using longer lasting materials....

 

[hammer21]

Here is a link for the controller http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270834230489

 

[hammer21]

I also am interested in the foam container very interesting concept 2"x2" wood 1" styro foam and some liquid nails and a can of marine grade spray paint

http://www.squidoo.com/styrofoam-glue

 

[Trichy Bastard]

instead of the white chunky beer-cooler-foam, why not use thick home insulation foam? harder stuff that comes in 4'x8' sheets.... it will be dense enough to block all light and is fairly rigid for "foam".... i have assembled mock subwoofer enclosures using it, with a little bit of strategic bracing, its rigid enough for a 1,000 watt 15" sub.... but plants wont need anything that strong will they? foam is easy to modify, then once you find the "perfect design", you can duplicate it using longer lasting materials....

Yes, that is the foam I was planning to use, I just wasn't familiar with it enough to know if it transmitted light or not... Good to know how strong it is, I have held a sheet in my hands while at the hardware store, but never tried to flex it. I am really pulled on this subject between my perfectionism, and need to get up and running quickly, so we'll see which side of my brain wins- so far it's been a total gridlock-not having any free time making it worse... hehe
I can't remember but it must be 1.5-2" thick- perhaps I will just go by Atomizer's advice and frame it together, or maybe I'll get to the hardware store and go back to the original deckbox idea... The good news is whatever I do, I can always make the perfect chamber later and switch it out in a matter of minutes as all the controls and majority of plumbing will be seperate, and only attached by a single quick connect JG line, and some wires for the solenoids.

 

[Mike Young]

The foam ranges from like 3/4 to 2". I used the 2" for my lids. Recently, they've applied a mylar backing to one side of the sheeting. Almost as if they read my mind. Dunno if its everywhere. Its only been around here a couple of months. Oh, and there's the pink shit too. It's a little more rigid, but not sure what it's made of. Could be toxic...

 

[aerojunkie]

Trichy, my chambers are made of polystyrene foam but I dont recommend the home depot material as it is only a 1 lb density. If you do decide to fiberglass it wont be a problem but you need to use a specific resin that will not eat polystyrene. Most foam does not stand up to many chemicals.

Originally I planned to use fiberglass as well but it was much cheaper to build the chambers with 2 lb foam and line the inside with extruded polystyrene sheets. Most glues will destroy polystyrene so I recommend 3M 78 polystyrene adhesive. For lids I used a combination of polystyrene sheets on the underside and FRP on the top as FRP is more rigid and the texture diffuses light and prevents hot spots. The lids are 3 lb density foam. To prevent light penetration of the walls, I glued reflectix brand insulation around the perimeter.

If you plan to fiberglass you may want to consider spraying a gelcoat between the polystyrene and your fiberglass or you could line it like you said with aluminum foil and glass it right over top. If I remember correctly polystyrene resin isn't cheap. Good luck

 

[aerojunkie]

I also have another chamber that is 2x2 framed with polystyrene insulation between studs and lined with extruded sheets. The perimeter is lined with Masonite and painted flat white.

 

[Mike Young]

Here's a shot of the hot tub I hope to one day convert into a rig. Minus one of the sections, as I am using it for something else currently.

 

[Trichy Bastard]

I also have another chamber that is 2x2 framed with polystyrene insulation between studs and lined with extruded sheets. The perimeter is lined with Masonite and painted flat white.

Thanks for the info AJ... Yes, I believe epoxy is polystyrene friendly, but since I live in a surfboard friendly part of the world, I am sure the local shops can point me in the right direction of things. I guess my best bet is to go to the stores tomorrow, and out of what's available hopefully I can make up my mind and buy whatever I need to start in that direction. I know I could probably be up and running even this weekend if I chose a simpler design. For lining the interior, Atomix used a pond liner, so that is always an option as well. Whatever I do I will try to take some pics and post the progress. Wish me luck

Here's a shot of the hot tub I hope to one day convert into a rig. Minus one of the sections, as I am using it for something else currently.View attachment 1837020

Wow Mike- that would be a good sized chamber! Thanks for the pic- I'd love to see you have it filled with fuzzy roots one day-lol

Maybe I will just convert a Dogloo into a root chamber, that's actually something I considered in the past-

 

[boodadood]

Here's a shot of the hot tub I hope to one day convert into a rig. Minus one of the sections, as I am using it for something else currently.View attachment 1837020

now THATS a root chamber!

 

[foresakenlion]

TB, I don't mean to come off as I don't appreciate the concepts you're trying to illuminate to me, I do get the concepts, but I am stuck at the design phase, not even into an operational mindset at this point, I did not take offense, to your comments, if only to the concept of rereading all that to try to gleam the few useful tidbits I did on that first rather long read through, I think in total it was over 400 pages of posts we're talking about re-reading here, w/ about 10% of that being anything relevant, so please do understand my resistance and its root cause.

I do fully agree Atomizer's calculation he mentioned is certainly something for people in an operational status to focus on, and Id like to take the time to thank him for setting me straight on Stoner, that book from 55 which is truly the origin of this method, as well as the two practical examples of an older working systems.

I believe PodRacer and then Stoner are good stepping stones, I certainly learned a lot from reading their available information, my main concern comes down to specifics, Stoner is the only one that I know that has a documented layout of a system, every piece, every connection, if you look at the available pieces on aerponics.com which you obviously did since that's where you got the sprayers, you can see that his system is fully layed out, except he used vinyl tubing.

It seems silly to me that my main concern at this point is whether the tap adapter coming out of the accumulator tank tapers from the 3/4" BSP into a 1/4" or 3/8" John Guest -> Swivel Branch Tee 1/4" or 3/8" x 3/4" NPTF x 1/4" or 3/8" John Guest, the NPTF goes to either a Piston Style Pressure Relief Valve, which has a port on it for a 1/4" NPTM pressure gauge, or the NPTF goes to a Dayton Pressure Relief Valve, then the end of the STB goes into another STB which has a 1/4" NPTF or M, which will have to be adapted, then a 1/4" NPTM pressure gauge.

Based on what is available above, then we go into a 1/4" or 3/8" John Guest Solenoid Valve -> Two Way Divider 1/4" or 3/8" -> 1/4" or 3/8" Swivel Branch Tee x 1/4" or 3/8" (only sizes available if only they had a 1/8" F) x 1/4" or 3/8", out of the center of the tee the 1/4" or 3/8" would be reduced or coupled (still hunting for the proper term for NPT and female to female connectors)

So sorry if I've seemed frustrated, the logistics on this are not nice.

 

[foresakenlion]

I use 1.5" PVC Couplers (HD/Lowes) and neoprene pucks from hydro stores to hold my plants in place. I don't need the neoprene pucks until ~ 4 nodes .

The PVC Couplers come in a variety of very similar shapes. Look for the ones with the widest mouth on the bottom, the fewest threads, and a flat lip that rests on the table top. Some are beveled, which makes balance precarious. hth

View attachment 1650478
View attachment 1653702

Even larger versions available as Male Iron Pipe couplers, no idea if there's pucks available but you can always make some.

 

[Trichy Bastard]

I agree that the parts hunting is a real pita for this project. I guess the reason I wanted to make sure you understood the operational parameters is that they will affect your design, so they need to be considered now. To achieve the proper misting, you will need to mate the right mist nozzles (and number of them) with chamber size/design. I just want you to succeed, and not spend money and end up in frustration finding that you need to re-design your concept after you already spent hard earned cash. How can you know adamantly how to design your rig, if you don't have clarity on exactly what is important in the results it will need to yeild? I agree that podracer and Stoner are stepping stones, everyone is a piece of the puzzle, fortunately tree farmer and Atomizer have pretty must posted how to do this right, and combined with the parts and step by step building Cavadge posted, the formula is complete in my mind. The original goal of this thread was to put it all together for everyone, and I tried to list all my parts. The big job of making sure you have all the right adapters and stuff is a pain, and since they will vary by each person's build, aren't worth mentioning. However, if you write your basic design on paper, and see which parts are available from the sellers websites, you can eventually figure out how you'll connect it all up and what to buy. Also, everyone seems to have to place multiple orders for JG fittings/adaptors as even when you think you have it all figured out, as you start putting things together, there seems to always be an adaptor or something you forgot- lol... Happened to me 2-3 times already and I specifically tried to not have it happen!...

I'd steer clear of pressure relief valves designed for sprinkler systems, as they tend to have large diameter ports, and I would only guess they may be less precision than their home plumbing counterparts. Besides all the cornucopia of JG fittings you'll need to figure out on your own, I have listed all the actual parts and links where to buy them reasonably. Most of these pieces were not only chosen because good price, but more importantly because they are definitely up to the task at hand. The only exception is the pressure switch I chose, which is experimental although by it's specs it should work fine for this type of work. I would have bought the one Cav and tree farmer both used, except it was thrice the price, and had reported issues of kicking when the solenoid actuated... I hope I've found a cheaper model that also doesn't have that problem, and I will find out soon enough as you'll read in my next post.

 

[Trichy Bastard]

Ok guys- I went to the hardware store today, and with a mission to decide once and for all the approach I would take for my chamber design. After much searching and looking around, I came full circle and decided my original plan of the deck box was indeed the direction I wanted to go. I also purchased a smaller one to put my reservoir, accumulator, pump, filter, battery, pressure switch, pressure relief valve and timer into. I will use a 10 gallon insulated jug like the kind they use for gatorade at construction sites. I believe the bottom spout can be retrofitted with a JG bulkhead for simplicity. I got nearly everything I needed to finish the job, so tomorrow I will start building, and journaling my progress and posting some pics along the way. I went with the exact deck bin I originally posted at the beginning of the thread, it has a dual wall construction, so should be better with insulation than a single wall which would be more like a rubbermaid container. I intend to drill holes every few inches around the top, and fill with "Great Stuff" spray polyurethane foam for additional insulating qualities. Originally I'd planned cutting in a door on the front side of the chamber, but upon rethinking, I will cut the door into the lid for top access to the roots and misters of the chamber (and of course good root porn hopefully). For a while I'm sure just liftiing the lid itself will work, but expect as the roots fill in and cling to the sides, the top door won't be openable without tearing roots. Here we go onto the next phase of putting this bad boy together finally! Will post progress tomorrow night !!!

 

[foresakenlion]

I do not trust any steryoform glue product around plants, pond tarp has a proven track record of apparent in activity.
fiberglass, you have to worry about microscopic glass shards, those are a real health concern, I'm not sure if the form of the silica in fiberglass is amorphous and therefore smooth, or crystalline and therefore sharp and jagged, this is somethig to research


Cavadge used PVC, if I was using PVC this would be a lot easier past the Accumulator, however I want to use JG because of it's superior ability to be taken apart and cleaned easily. I have listed two specific junctions with part sizes, if no one can help, and I can't find an NFT female to female 3/8" or 1/4" to 1/8" then I will be forced to use PVC.

I specifically mapped out all my parts with all the principles you had in mind, and have been described by the others with up and running working systems. I remember someone had a solution, problem is after reading all these posts I don't know who it was anymore.

I believe everyone posting their connectors is far more important than you give credit too, Cavdage used


DOW Foam = Polyisocyanurate
R-Tech Foam = Polystyrene
Owens Corning Foamular = Polystyrene
R-Matte Plus = Polyisocyanurate

Well personally I'm sad to see you didn't go the wood, pond liner route, but you're past that point now no point looking back.

 

[Trichy Bastard]

Funny you mention it- I just came to the same conclusion: after doing research, I am scrapping the spray foam idea. It's chock full of synthetic chemicals and outgasses nastiness. Not to mention it expands with enough force to bend window frames and even studs. I think I'll be ok with the closed air between the double walls, and let the evaporation of the mist keep the temps down.

As mentioned before, the main reason you wont want to use pvc is that it will undo any control you have over the mist. it will cause the mist response to not be crisp- anytime the pressure is lower than 50psi or so (like when the pvc is pressurizing/depressurizing), the droplets will be too large and undo any attempts at finer mist (Imagine a nice fine misting -but at the end of the cycle spits big blobs of water all over the roots). This will be the same effect as pouring water on them to begin with. Plus your timer might be set at .5 seconds, but with pvc depressurization could double your timing to a second or more. As I mentioned- Cavadge dropped the pvc manifolds and switched to exclusive JG with reporting MUCH better results- this is why I asked if you really read the stuff, or just skimmed through it? ( I know- there really is so much to absorb and retain... )

I wouldn't have worried about the glass fibers because they would have been completely trapped in the epoxy- although not too sure how toxic epoxy is after curing either.

I had the same issue you are having. I was able to fit a regular PVC (it's actually the same as NPT) 3/8 male to 1/2 female threaded reducing bushing in the Accumulator which now sizes the accumulator output to 1/2 NPT female. After that I purchased a 1/2 npt male to 1/2" JG male stem piece then I used a 1/2 J/G to 1/4" jG reducing adaptor to size it down once more.

The pvc adaptor I just mentioned is located at any hardware store (standard schedule 40)- and I remember tree farmer writing that his leaked, but he switched to a schedule 80 adaptor and it stopped leaking- it looks like this: http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/GF-PIPING-SYSTEMS-Reducer-Bushing-6MZ88.
And these 2 parts complete the transition:
http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-1662-male-stem-12-cts-x-12-npt.aspx (1/2 NPT male to 1/2 JG male)
http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-1627-reducing-union-12-cts-x-14-od.aspx (its 9 bucks, and the pic doesn't show the back side, but it is a 1/2 JG female to 1/4 JG female). These 3 mentioned parts will take the output of the accumulator down to 1/4" JG/PEX ready to pop your line into it.

If it makes you feel any better, this was by far the hardest thing to figure out about the plumbing. Took hours including reading plumbing threads to figure out that BSP was interchangable with NPT, and that CTS is interchangable with JG or PEX. What a confusing mess I agree, and I hated having to buy a $9 adaptor to fit the other 2 pieces together just because the correct piece I needed (3/8 npt male to 1/4 JG) was not a manufactured adaptor. Perhaps there is another way to go about all of this, but this was how I tackled it. Hope this helps you out man...