I've been updating my first grow thread here
Room30's HP Aero Cabinet
- Thread starter r0m30
- Start date
foresakenlion
Active Member
What specific type of tubing did you use, I'm looking and I see PEX, and then there's polyethlylene, non cross linked LDPE and LLDPE.
and I'm linking for the next design maybe a rigid setup using PEX, or PVC w/ Sharkbite fittings, should be as easy as JG but more rigid, so I'm thinking more pressure making it upstream. though BD said the fluid dynamics would be negligible, they already have some pretty affordable water hammer nullifiers for PVC, I would assume they could adapted to the same size PEX easily. Ok thanks again for the help.
and I'm linking for the next design maybe a rigid setup using PEX, or PVC w/ Sharkbite fittings, should be as easy as JG but more rigid, so I'm thinking more pressure making it upstream. though BD said the fluid dynamics would be negligible, they already have some pretty affordable water hammer nullifiers for PVC, I would assume they could adapted to the same size PEX easily. Ok thanks again for the help.
Trichy Bastard
Well-Known Member
Pex is the easiest to work with, and the best for holding pressure without expanding. The downside is the connectors are a bit pricey as they add up- but no one ever said proper hpa was cheap. Don't use pvc, especially anywhere after the solenoids as it actually does expand and will not transfer the pressure wholly as it expands. This is stressed in most of the threads I still think it wouldn't hurt for you to skim through again. I personally had to re-read them over a couple times until I got the details and the lightbulb came on myself (so don't be offended). Sharkbite fittings are brass btw, also not entirely ideal in mass quantities.
I used the John Guest LLDPE tubing. I couldn't source any 1/4" OD PEX.
Trichy Bastard
Well-Known Member
I did as well- I read that only the black JG tubing is made with UV stabilizers so I went for that, even though I may insulate all my tubing in the end anyway and it won't matter in that case.
I am under the impression that PEX is just generic JG tubing- am I incorrect?
foresakenlion
Active Member
No offense taken but I'm not re-reading all of that, it's thicker than a book and most of it, especially reading pod racers drivel was soul sucking. I swear if you condensed that entire thread to relevant posts it'd be three pages at max.
I was under the impression that was standard PVC, not CPVC they seem to stock now? The PVC I have says it's rated to 600 psi, seems pretty rigid.
Ah sharkbites are brass, didn't know that, maybe they have some stainless steel somewhere, honestly the PVC was just an idea seeing how easy it's to whip up a manifold w/ it.
JG as I understand it is LLDPE, or LDPE, and PEX is crosslinked polyethylene that has transformed from a thermoplastic into a thermo-set. I take it, it's more rigid and has a tighter mesh matrix.
I was under the impression that was standard PVC, not CPVC they seem to stock now? The PVC I have says it's rated to 600 psi, seems pretty rigid.
Ah sharkbites are brass, didn't know that, maybe they have some stainless steel somewhere, honestly the PVC was just an idea seeing how easy it's to whip up a manifold w/ it.
JG as I understand it is LLDPE, or LDPE, and PEX is crosslinked polyethylene that has transformed from a thermoplastic into a thermo-set. I take it, it's more rigid and has a tighter mesh matrix.
I read that as well but went with the green because it felt more "gardeny". After all every garden has several hundred dollars worth of high pressure equipment
I'll probably end up replacing the tubing in the flower chamber once I stop messing with the system set up.
PEX is cross-linked high density polyethylene. LLDPE is linear low density polyethylene. They are different base plastics and PEX is treated to cross link the polymers.
Trichy Bastard
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the explanation both you and R0m gave on the tubing differences. It rings a bell now, and my only further question is which tubing would be theoretically better for this application. I have a feeling that at the pressures and temps we use, there might be no real life difference, but perhaps someone knows if one resists expansion better than the other or something.
I don't think podracer's thread in particular needs re-reading. Matter of fact I felt that I didn't get anything more out of it than the first third or so, and even that was filled with a bit of what would be considered mis-information by todays standards. While Cavadge's own design wasn't optimal, his thread was filled with little bits of good information, and much easier/fun to read. Matter of fact, he was the one who had to stop using pvc because it allowed for alot of mist run on, and that was only in his spray manifolds. I'd imagine the more pvc used in a system, the worse things would get. It does expand under pressure, and that is the issue. Also it is a much larger diameter than JG or pex, and even if all tubing were to expand say 10%, then 10% of a pvc pipe at it's larger diameter would be alot more volume of water than 10% of 1/4" diameter JG tubing. tree farmer's thread is a monster read, but it had alot of really good info in regards to hpa principles, stuff that is commonly misinformed on most other threads. Although G-love's journals on UK420 were about the atomized hpa, he still reinforced the importance of short mist timing, and the principles remain the same regardless of delivery method. But that's all I have to say about it. I can only tell of the info, and whether someone choses to read it, or even buy into it for that matter, is completely up to them. I only wanted to make sure people that were purposefully trying to follow the information I summed up in my thread, were understanding all of it- if that was their intention.
I don't think podracer's thread in particular needs re-reading. Matter of fact I felt that I didn't get anything more out of it than the first third or so, and even that was filled with a bit of what would be considered mis-information by todays standards. While Cavadge's own design wasn't optimal, his thread was filled with little bits of good information, and much easier/fun to read. Matter of fact, he was the one who had to stop using pvc because it allowed for alot of mist run on, and that was only in his spray manifolds. I'd imagine the more pvc used in a system, the worse things would get. It does expand under pressure, and that is the issue. Also it is a much larger diameter than JG or pex, and even if all tubing were to expand say 10%, then 10% of a pvc pipe at it's larger diameter would be alot more volume of water than 10% of 1/4" diameter JG tubing. tree farmer's thread is a monster read, but it had alot of really good info in regards to hpa principles, stuff that is commonly misinformed on most other threads. Although G-love's journals on UK420 were about the atomized hpa, he still reinforced the importance of short mist timing, and the principles remain the same regardless of delivery method. But that's all I have to say about it. I can only tell of the info, and whether someone choses to read it, or even buy into it for that matter, is completely up to them. I only wanted to make sure people that were purposefully trying to follow the information I summed up in my thread, were understanding all of it- if that was their intention.
boodadood
Active Member
"The thing in the front that isn’t very well in focus is my DIY recycle timer, it’s PIC based so it can be made to do just about any interval with software but I’ll post a DIY when I get it a little more presentable."
hi r0m...ive been thinking about this lately and would be very interested in learning how to wire up my own timer...do you have any details on your timer worked out yet?
thanks,
BD
hi r0m...ive been thinking about this lately and would be very interested in learning how to wire up my own timer...do you have any details on your timer worked out yet?
thanks,
BD
I've sat down and tried to document the timer twice. It's not really an accessible design. It was built based on what I had in my electronics stash and my dislike of using pots to adjust the timing. The pots mean that you have to guess at what your timings are and that doesn't sit well with me.
I think a 555 base timer would be something most people could build. I looked into the component values and drew up a schematic for one but I didn't want to spend the money on the pots so I only tested it on a breadboard using different resistors in place of the pots.
Here are the schematics for both designs. If you're interested in either I'll be glad to help you build one.
boodadood
Active Member
wow...awesome...thank u so much...im off to try n digest it a bit...im sure i will be back with a ton of questions...thanks again man!
Trichy Bastard
Well-Known Member
Thats what he was afraid of hehehehe
boodadood
Active Member
IC1: NE555 Timer Integrated Circuit TLC555/TLC555CP Radio Shack Catalog #: 276-1718 - $1.99
C1: 220µF 35V 20% Radial-lead Electrolytic Capacitor 272-1029 Radio Shack Catalog #: 272-1029 - $1.49
R1: 1K Ohm 1/4-Watt Carbon Film Resistor (5-Pack) 271-1321 Radio Shack Catalog #: 271-1321 - $1.19
D1 & D2: 1N4004 Micro 1-Amp Rectifier Diode 1N4004 Radio Shack Catalog #: 276-1103 - $1.19 x 2
K1: Solid State Relay for Vdc & Vac Input/ Vac Output SSR330 Series SR330DC25 omega.com - $21.00
R2A: 75K Ohm 53C2-75K Clarostat Potentiometer Item #: PMP0029 talonix.com - $8.30
R2B: ?????
a ton of questions as we all were expecting!
How are the pot sizes selected? Can they be oversized? If the load needed across the pot at the optimal point is only say 50K would it be sized to 50K or sized to 100K to offer range? Im trying to figure out how it all works and i think too mechanically
How many solenoids could this circuit drive? Is it possible to run 2 or 4? What would the valve specs have to be?
This may sound stupid to you and naïve but im totally confused on the power i think i get why youre grounding between the relay and the timer but why is there a capacitor before the ground on the other side of the timer chip?
My other power question is why do you call the unregulated power supply optional how is the top part of the diagram regulated? Where does the +5V come from? Why would someone use the optional unregulated power supply vs using what is shown above it?
I could only find one 75K pot out there and there are only 2 in stock. I could not find a 6M pot anywhere on the web. Also, what is meant by the term Audio does that mean to use a pot made for a stereo amp or receiver or something?
Do the parts i list look ok to you? I have to go to Omega to find the SSD and they have a few to choose from. Listed is one i just took a guess at really
Your microcontroller timer looks high tech man .nice work on that I think the assembly work on that alone is way above my pay grade I need to start small just to get my feet wet and the 555 is going to be a difficult challenge for me
Just looking at the parts I could save about 50% of the cost on the ATC 422 flip/flop timer I would still need a board, a case, some knobs, and various other supplies all from the shack most likely
I was thinking to use a breadboard as the permanent board would this be ok? I dont have a soldering gun and theres no way im going to make my own pcb or order one or anything? They sell one at radio shack for 5 bucks, WBU-D.
I also have control questions what would the resolution of this 555 timer be? How tightly could I control the time? Why did you say with the pots you have to guess what your timing will be? Isnt the use of the pots what allows you to constantly adjust the timing to suit the needs of the root chamber? Or am I missing the meaning of a potentiometer all together? Im thinking it is a way to vary the resistance through the path .if its a 75K ohm pot then it can vary resistance from 0-75K ohms the resolution one would get would be dependent on the resolution of the turning axis but what tells the pot to say one ¼ turn is equal to say 1 second or one ¼ turn is equal to 0.2 seconds, etc.
This is just the beginning imagine all the questions im going to have once I actually try it out!!
and the final million dollar question is...well not really, the final 110 dollar question...the 422 timer is about 110 bucks shipped...would someone completely green be better off just buying an off the shelf fractional second timer or would the smaller cost with the upfront labor of the DIY 555 payoff with custom settings?
THANKS MAN!!
C1: 220µF 35V 20% Radial-lead Electrolytic Capacitor 272-1029 Radio Shack Catalog #: 272-1029 - $1.49
R1: 1K Ohm 1/4-Watt Carbon Film Resistor (5-Pack) 271-1321 Radio Shack Catalog #: 271-1321 - $1.19
D1 & D2: 1N4004 Micro 1-Amp Rectifier Diode 1N4004 Radio Shack Catalog #: 276-1103 - $1.19 x 2
K1: Solid State Relay for Vdc & Vac Input/ Vac Output SSR330 Series SR330DC25 omega.com - $21.00
R2A: 75K Ohm 53C2-75K Clarostat Potentiometer Item #: PMP0029 talonix.com - $8.30
R2B: ?????
a ton of questions as we all were expecting!
How are the pot sizes selected? Can they be oversized? If the load needed across the pot at the optimal point is only say 50K would it be sized to 50K or sized to 100K to offer range? Im trying to figure out how it all works and i think too mechanically
How many solenoids could this circuit drive? Is it possible to run 2 or 4? What would the valve specs have to be?
This may sound stupid to you and naïve but im totally confused on the power i think i get why youre grounding between the relay and the timer but why is there a capacitor before the ground on the other side of the timer chip?
My other power question is why do you call the unregulated power supply optional how is the top part of the diagram regulated? Where does the +5V come from? Why would someone use the optional unregulated power supply vs using what is shown above it?
I could only find one 75K pot out there and there are only 2 in stock. I could not find a 6M pot anywhere on the web. Also, what is meant by the term Audio does that mean to use a pot made for a stereo amp or receiver or something?
Do the parts i list look ok to you? I have to go to Omega to find the SSD and they have a few to choose from. Listed is one i just took a guess at really
Your microcontroller timer looks high tech man .nice work on that I think the assembly work on that alone is way above my pay grade I need to start small just to get my feet wet and the 555 is going to be a difficult challenge for me
Just looking at the parts I could save about 50% of the cost on the ATC 422 flip/flop timer I would still need a board, a case, some knobs, and various other supplies all from the shack most likely
I was thinking to use a breadboard as the permanent board would this be ok? I dont have a soldering gun and theres no way im going to make my own pcb or order one or anything? They sell one at radio shack for 5 bucks, WBU-D.
I also have control questions what would the resolution of this 555 timer be? How tightly could I control the time? Why did you say with the pots you have to guess what your timing will be? Isnt the use of the pots what allows you to constantly adjust the timing to suit the needs of the root chamber? Or am I missing the meaning of a potentiometer all together? Im thinking it is a way to vary the resistance through the path .if its a 75K ohm pot then it can vary resistance from 0-75K ohms the resolution one would get would be dependent on the resolution of the turning axis but what tells the pot to say one ¼ turn is equal to say 1 second or one ¼ turn is equal to 0.2 seconds, etc.
This is just the beginning imagine all the questions im going to have once I actually try it out!!
and the final million dollar question is...well not really, the final 110 dollar question...the 422 timer is about 110 bucks shipped...would someone completely green be better off just buying an off the shelf fractional second timer or would the smaller cost with the upfront labor of the DIY 555 payoff with custom settings?
THANKS MAN!!
You might try mouser, they are usually cheaper than the shack.
Here is a page with the math (Basic circuits #4), and here is a capture of the spreadsheet I used to come up with these values.
That depends on the (mili) amps required to trigger the solenoid and the amps supplied by the PS.
It's required to control the cycle times of the 555 timer.
Most SSR's have a 5V control voltage, if you use a 5V regulated PS you wouldn't need the optional components. If you use an unregulated PS then you need the optional components to regulate and lower the voltage.
I think I looked for and found the pots at mouser. Audio (AKA logarithmic) describes the way the resistance changes as you turn the knob (wiki link). I chose the audio taper pots because using them gives you finer control at the lower end of the pots resistance.
I'm assuming you meant SSR, again mouser has a selection of them cheaper than the one you listed.
Yep, that was no fun to solder, I'm working on a PCB for it but I haven't had much luck making PCBs in the past so I'm not working very hard at it.
That's more than you should have to spend on parts. Mouser should be able to about halve the cost.
The shack has a project board with copper plated holes for a few bucks. That's what I used for my timer. It would work fine for the 555 timer, but you would need to solder it. I guess you could run it off a breadboard but it would be fragile.
That depends on the pots and your manual dexterity, theoretically you should be able to get any time that the components support. Reality is you can't adjust the posts that finely. See the spreadsheet capture I posted above for the range.
I say you have to guess because you are working with several variables. The tolerances of the parts (20-30% on a cap), the repeatability of the pot, and the mechanical and electrical delays of the rest of the components. You should be able to get close if you measure the resistance of the pot in a specific position and mark it but close is all you'll be.
Most people would be better off buying a timer, I built mine mostly to kill time waiting for parts to arrive.
Trichy Bastard
Well-Known Member
Another issue is that the timing may vary by ambient temperature (dirty) although the timings we use here will not likely suffer any percievable amount... I have that issue with a 555 based oscillating circuit I built for another project but it's on/off cycle is measure in hertz not seconds... 
Your a good guy r0m, that was a big homework assignment...
I'm glad I bought my timer in my case, as it seems I am having a hard enough time getting up and running despite the timer already being made and I'm not really that much of an electrical circuit whiz. I'm hoping to start on the chamber this weekend thogh (cross fingers).
Your a good guy r0m, that was a big homework assignment...I'm glad I bought my timer in my case, as it seems I am having a hard enough time getting up and running despite the timer already being made and I'm not really that much of an electrical circuit whiz. I'm hoping to start on the chamber this weekend thogh (cross fingers).
boodadood
Active Member
thanks for that reply bro...it really cleared some things up for me...i may pursuit both means to the same end and try and build one while i wait for the real one to get here...if i can spend around 30 bucks or so why not? it would be a great learning experience for me
im going to check out mouser and do some more searching around this weekend...i really need to tighten up my overall parts list too as ordering day is coming soon!
also, an FYI for us all...i got those push to connect fittings in that i ordered from mcmaster...the 3/8" tee is 51055K145 and only $3.89...i also ordered a bunch of npt adapters...they are actually brand name john guest fittings...i dont know why they are not labeled as such on their website
thanks again r0m
im going to check out mouser and do some more searching around this weekend...i really need to tighten up my overall parts list too as ordering day is coming soon!
also, an FYI for us all...i got those push to connect fittings in that i ordered from mcmaster...the 3/8" tee is 51055K145 and only $3.89...i also ordered a bunch of npt adapters...they are actually brand name john guest fittings...i dont know why they are not labeled as such on their website
thanks again r0m
whats the pressure reducing valve for? when i click it its not on the site but they have one on their should i order it? and the how many selenoids do i need if i have 9 aero sites?
The pressure reducing valve keeps the pressure fed to the misters at a constant 70PSI. This keeps the mist consistent as the pressure in the system varies from 70-90 PSI while the accumulator is drained and refilled.
It looks like they only have the 4 port model available, I used the 2 port one. I 've been having some reliability issues with the valve too. You may want to explore other options.
Trichy Bastard
Well-Known Member
r0m- you got the same pressure reducer as me, right? I hope to not have issues with it. I looked over Cavadge's thread last week and noticed he used the same one! For some reason I thought he used a brass one, but nope- it's the same... Mine has 4 ports- and I like it cuz I mounted a gauge right on the top port...