The Best N-P-K

[infrared]

Only way to find out is to try it.

First off, a big thanks to UB.

I used your topping method with great success on my first grow. After having read more of your stuff and other well respected growers, I'm ready to get away from my hundreds of dollars of Fox Farms, the dummy chart and all those yellow leaves.

I understand that there's nothing resembling a hard and fast rule for how much NPK each plant needs, other than the fact that they need nitrogen, phosphorous, potassium and 13 others.

But I haven't yet found an answer I understand on exactly what to "try". I get that it's all about adjusting to the plants' needs and they give visual feedback, but I'm not sure exactly what to look for.

Should I seek to 'push' my plants by increasing dosage/PPMs until I see some problems, then back off to find the max they can handle?

Maybe it's more of a 'middle road' where I'm just looking to maximize healthy green foliage without pushing it in an attempt to maximize yields? (thereby maximizing yields through a healthier overall plant instead of one that's just fed more)

TL;DR:
I'm done with the hype and firmly on the path of basic botany; how do I 'read' my plants to achieve the best results?
I bet there's a link out there that answers and/or points in the right direction, I just need some help to find it

 

[Uncle Ben]

First off, a big thanks to UB.

I used your topping method with great success on my first grow. After having read more of your stuff and other well respected growers, I'm ready to get away from my hundreds of dollars of Fox Farms, the dummy chart and all those yellow leaves.

I understand that there's nothing resembling a hard and fast rule for how much NPK each plant needs, other than the fact that they need nitrogen, phosphorous, potassium and 13 others.

But I haven't yet found an answer I understand on exactly what to "try". I get that it's all about adjusting to the plants' needs and they give visual feedback, but I'm not sure exactly what to look for.

Glad the topping worked out for you and that you're progressing towards a state of "normalcy" when it comes to common sense gardening. The vendors who use charts and other "aids" have designed their marketing methods/sales pitches to make you dependent on them. Confusion and the never ending need for another additive or booster is their game. They don't want you to become wise to their lies or they lose a customer......and a liter of watered down snake oil is a lot to lose in sales.

Should I seek to 'push' my plants by increasing dosage/PPMs until I see some problems, then back off to find the max they can handle?

Maybe it's more of a 'middle road' where I'm just looking to maximize healthy green foliage without pushing it in an attempt to maximize yields? (thereby maximizing yields through a healthier overall plant instead of one that's just fed more)

TL;DR:
I'm done with the hype and firmly on the path of basic botany; how do I 'read' my plants to achieve the best results?
I bet there's a link out there that answers and/or points in the right direction, I just need some help to find it

Only experience will guide you on how you're doing. Leaves should be a nice green with no chlorosis. With any plant material, if the new set of leaves (branches) are smaller than the previous ones, you got problems and most times their root health related.

If you push your plants and they stress out as reflected by leaf bronzing, burn or premature necrosis the damage has been done and can not be reversed.

IMO, the following cross I grew is what you should strive for regarding leaf color and foliage mass. Focus on the production and maintenance of leaves and a robust root system until harvest. Don't flush, it's a stupid practice (to be blunt). Forget about the buds, they will come if you support the overall health of the plant. It's nature's way.



Going on 12 weeks of flowering, looking a bit ragged leafwise, ready to harvest.



Good luck,
Uncle Ben

 

[squarepush3r]

Advancedc Nutrients, and Canna and Dutch master typical use something like this for NPK values

Veg
5-2-5

Flower
5-4-9

You still need nitrogen in flowering, just not as much in proportion, and according to the "Phosphorous myth" P is overstated too often

 

[Uncle Ben]

The industry standard is 9-3-6 for foliar production and cannabis is nothing more than a flowering foliage annual.

1-3-2 is the standard for a flowering ratio, but at the risk of premature leaf necrosis.

 

[watchhowIdoit]

The guidelines I follow are 3-1-2 for veg and 2-1-3 for flower with a bit of a P boost the last 3-4 weeks....
Miracle Grows All Purpose 24-8-16 is great for veg for example. Epsomas Plant Tone 5-3-3 and Garden Tone 3-4-4 are great choices. Well rounded and contain some beneficials also....

 

[Izoc666]

The guidelines I follow are 3-1-2 for veg and 2-1-3 for flower with a bit of a P boost the last 3-4 weeks....
Miracle Grows All Purpose 24-8-16 is great for veg for example. Epsomas Plant Tone 5-3-3 and Garden Tone 3-4-4 are great choices. Well rounded and contain some beneficials also....

True about the Miracle grow all purple is great for veg but make sure you add lime to your soil because of cal-mag, that MGAP dont contain cal-mag on it.

 

[Izoc666]

hey Uncle Ben, first of all I really have utmost respect for ya

I would like to hear your opioion on the dyna s Pro Tek ?

Ive been thinking to get Pro tek for my outdoor MJ plants...I would get Pro foliage as well....do you have any advice to how to dilute Pro tek with 9-3-5 ? how often I should use Pro Tek throughtout MJ s veg stage ? and it would be good idea to switch 9-3-5 to 7-9-5 with dyna s bloom for starting flower stage ? Ill highly appreicate with your advice, thanks.

BTW im using soilless in the container

 

[Uncle Ben]

Never used Pro Tek. I don't use something I don't believe I need.

sorry.....

 

[Izoc666]

Never used Pro Tek. I don't use something I don't believe I need.

sorry.....

ohh its alrighty , still thanks.

 

[nick17gar]

another question, one that i've come across a few times, is the use of flowering nutes during veg. do an images search on feeding charts and youll see that the big companies all recommend a lil of their personal bloom fertilizer during the veggie state from early on. Is this an evil diabolical scheme to get you to buy all their crap?
Is the best thing making a nutrient soup, with the N preferred (during veggie) and still having some bloom stuff in there? anyone know? i mean is the other stuff not absorbed and wasted in form of (expensive) run off?
i guess this is the age old question, with answers varying from grower to grower.

Edit:
Also, if it has anything to do with solute and solvent in chemistry, mixing a 3-3-3 with a 5-5-5 nutrient, still gives the same 1-1-1 ratio. thats the thing, they are ratios. you wont end up with 8-8-8. (the only way to end up with 8-8-8 would be to not add more water.. possibly resulting in a nute burn).

 

[Uncle Ben]

No matter what life cycle you're in, you use whatever it is that will support leaves.

UB

 

[infrared]

Only experience will guide you on how you're doing. Leaves should be a nice green with no chlorosis. With any plant material, if the new set of leaves (branches) are smaller than the previous ones, you got problems and most times their root health related.

If you push your plants and they stress out as reflected by leaf bronzing, burn or premature necrosis the damage has been done and can not be reversed.

So can I take this to mean that feeding them as much as they can handle without any negative visual feedback should result in the best (largest/most potent) harvest, assuming all the environmental variables are optimized?

 

[Uncle Ben]

So can I take this to mean that feeding them as much as they can handle without any negative visual feedback should result in the best (largest/most potent) harvest, assuming all the environmental variables are optimized?

Like I said, it depends on the health of the root system and foliage at harvest.

 

[infrared]

Like I said, it depends on the health of the root system and foliage at harvest.

I want to get on board with 'common sense' gardening. Your tip about leaves getting smaller was so 'elegant', I didn't even comprehend it until I re-read the post later. Good stuff!

You also mention supporting the leaves and roots, a basic idea that makes perfect sense. Most of what I know has been gleaned from the net along with a few books that, while fairly 'complete' in terms of getting started with cannabis, clearly have left me without so much as a framework that I could say I understand what goes into growing happy plants.

Got any good 'common sense' book recommendations or links for a novice botanist like me?

 

[Uncle Ben]

I want to get on board with 'common sense' gardening. Your tip about leaves getting smaller was so 'elegant', I didn't even comprehend it until I re-read the post later. Good stuff!

You also mention supporting the leaves and roots, a basic idea that makes perfect sense. Most of what I know has been gleaned from the net along with a few books that, while fairly 'complete' in terms of getting started with cannabis, clearly have left me without so much as a framework that I could say I understand what goes into growing happy plants.

Got any good 'common sense' book recommendations or links for a novice botanist like me?

I've tried for years to steer noobs from the never ending cannabis growing brainwashing and myths down the path of "what makes a plant tick".

Books? For the price and solid advice, it's hard to beat Mel Frank's 'MJ Insiders Growers Guide'. It's your shortcut to success. I consider 80% of posts in cannabis forums as being a "shortcut to disaster".

 

[Izoc666]

well to be honest, most of the books about cannabis grow isnt give you a sucessful, just give you tools to start with...like mine, i read several books...its doenst really help me at all...i just decided to read plants...it take times and trial and error until you master your skill to read the plants...it will click in your head, thats mean you know what plants need you provide...i learned a lot from here and my exprience as well.

 

[brewing up]

i got something for flowers, its says npk 6-6-2 is that any good for flowering? :-/

 

[brewing up]

i found this if it helps any1 else,,,,,,,,,

N= Nitrogen. This is the most important nute for Vegitative growth. It get's the plants green and going strong in the early ages of development. Once in Flowering you need to cut the nitrogen down a lot.

P= Phosphorus. This is important during flowering. It causes your buds to swell up. The amount of P is low during Veg and dramatically increased during flowering.

K= Potassium. Some people like high levels throughout the whole grow. It is supposed to increase your foliage and make your plants fatter and fill in more. Also increased levels during flowering...

 

[MzYou]

I don't get why people mix 5 different nutes together. Can you not just use one for veg along a trace elemant nute, and one for flowering along with a trace elemant nute? It's confusing how people use so many when they all do the same thing.

 

[PerfectNPK]

Yep, if in equal amounts.

Ok, I've been trying to figure this out for at least a couple weeks now and I'm still lost. I also might be putting WAYYY too much thought into this. UB maybe you can clear it up for me.

You say that the NPK ratio's stay the same if added in equal amounts. So lets go with the Flora 3 part series, or the "Lucas" formula to be specific. Lucas recommends for Vegetation to go (5ml Micro) and (10ml Bloom) per gallon.

Micro has an NPK of 5-0-1
Bloom has an NPK of 0-5-4


My question is, if 5ml Micro is added to a gallon of water, that would leave the water at a approximately (5 Nitrogen - 0 Phosphate - 1 Potassium), right?
Then 5ml of Bloom is added to the water would leave the water at approximately (5 Nitrogen - 5 Phosphate - 5 Potassium, right)?

If this is right, then what happens when I add the extra 5ml of Bloom that Lucas calls for? Does the water become (5 Micro - 10 Phosphate - 9 Potassium)?
Or say I add 12ml of Bloom instead of 10ml, would my NPK be somewhere around 5 - 12 - 9.8 ? What happens to the numbers when I add 1ml, or 2ml, or 3ml, or 13ml, etc. more of one nute compared to another?

What I want to be able to do is pull numbers that I like, say for Veg 20 - 16 - 13 or 23 - 15 - 15 and make the solution as close as possible by adding how many every ml more it takes with whatever nute I have laying around.

Thanks in advance to anyone that can shed the light needed.
BBL ------------------>