LED Grow Lights: Separating Fact from Fiction

[LookN2Research]

I would definitely go with the 180w as that light looks like it should actually pull that much, unlike the blackstar which would only pull about 133w. It also has more wavelengths and uses all 3w LEDs its definitely the better buy in my opinion. They will both grow, but one may be = 200w HID and the other 300w HID (and one is obviously higher quality light for plants)

The 180W Extreme is actually not several things that the Black Star is. Neither of them use ALL 3W LED's. Look at wattage draw, Kree, and Bridgelux LED's. The 240W Blackstar has these same LED's, but different angles, half the price and around a 15W less draw. You could run 2 X 240W BS LED's for the price of 1 X 180W. So, for about $500.00 after shipping you could have a literal draw of around 320W. Both companies use 2W & 3W as you will see in the description for the 180W that their 2W LED's have twice the intensity of a 1W, but the trick is where it says 3W and you have to find out that certain spectrums have not yet been manufactured to run above 2W per most LED's in both units. You will see one that is not visible to the human eye at 12,000 Kelvin (which I believe are Kree), and you will see the Blue ones which I believe are 3W by bridgelux. I believe the rest of the spectrum is currently going to be all 2W other than those mentioned. I'd go with the most proven, yet cheapest, and has reviews against a 1,000W HPS. 2 500W Units were compared.
Now, their 500W and 240W models are both good throughout Veg through Flower, and are identical except by size. 4 X 500W would be pricey, but would absolutely put MH and HPS to shame.
I have experience with Liquid Cooled Fresca Sol at 1000W Digital Ballast running Digilux Bulbs with 25% more spectrum.

IMPORTANT! The Black Star you are looking at is the 7th Gen (not the 9th which is the upgraded 2011 model), and more expensive on that site. Get on eBay, and just type Black Star 240, and inside the eBay listing you will see a phone number where you can call Vic. Ask him what you want. Try to call him a fraud. He sells HID, and LED. There's no reason for him to lie.

(400) 3w High Output LEDs (single chip)710w That is what the 180W LED site says about their 710W LED light. Thats when I have to look and say "Hmmm.... How do 400 X 3W LED's of actual draw not actually draw 3W per led (1,200W), but then put into account the draw for the few fans running.

 

[puffenuff]

The 180W Extreme is actually not several things that the Black Star is. Neither of them use ALL 3W LED's. Look at wattage draw, Kree, and Bridgelux LED's. The 240W Blackstar has these same LED's, but different angles, half the price and around a 15W less draw. You could run 2 X 240W BS LED's for the price of 1 X 180W. So, for about $500.00 after shipping you could have a literal draw of around 320W. Both companies use 2W & 3W as you will see in the description for the 180W that their 2W LED's have twice the intensity of a 1W, but the trick is where it says 3W and you have to find out that certain spectrums have not yet been manufactured to run above 2W per most LED's in both units. You will see one that is not visible to the human eye at 12,000 Kelvin (which I believe are Kree), and you will see the Blue ones which I believe are 3W by bridgelux. I believe the rest of the spectrum is currently going to be all 2W other than those mentioned. I'd go with the most proven, yet cheapest, and has reviews against a 1,000W HPS. 2 500W Units were compared.
Now, their 500W and 240W models are both good throughout Veg through Flower, and are identical except by size. 4 X 500W would be pricey, but would absolutely put MH and HPS to shame.
I have experience with Liquid Cooled Fresca Sol at 1000W Digital Ballast running Digilux Bulbs with 25% more spectrum.

IMPORTANT! The Black Star you are looking at is the 7th Gen (not the 9th which is the upgraded 2011 model), and more expensive on that site. Get on eBay, and just type Black Star 240, and inside the eBay listing you will see a phone number where you can call Vic. Ask him what you want. Try to call him a fraud. He sells HID, and LED. There's no reason for him to lie.

(400) 3w High Output LEDs (single chip)710w That is what the 180W LED site says about their 710W LED light. Thats when I have to look and say "Hmmm.... How do 400 X 3W LED's of actual draw not actually draw 3W per led (1,200W), but then put into account the draw for the few fans running.

You confused the shit out of me. Stop worrying about sounding smart and worry more about getting your points across more clearly.

 

[LookN2Research]

You confused the shit out of me. Stop worrying about sounding smart and worry more about getting your points across more clearly.

Hmhm... The point is if you buy the 180W you are simply paying double the money. The second point is there is no system running all 3W LED's, and only certain spectrums are being installed in these units at 3W.
I guess I should just say look at response #5 from another person. He is exactly right. One person simply wants more money.

 

[puffenuff]

Hmhm... The point is if you buy the 180W you are simply paying double the money. The second point is there is no system running all 3W LED's, and only certain spectrums are being installed in these units at 3W.
I guess I should just say look at response #5 from another person. He is exactly right. One person simply wants more money.

Much better, thank you for the simplified explanation. I do believe I have one of these 180w lights you keep taking about, and from what I've seen, they produce just as good as two of the blackstar 240s you mention, if not better. I don't feel like I overpaid either so I guess we all have our own opinions on the subject. Happy growing to you sir!

 

[LookN2Research]

Much better, thank you for the simplified explanation. I do believe I have one of these 180w lights you keep taking about, and from what I've seen, they produce just as good as two of the blackstar 240s you mention, if not better. I don't feel like I overpaid either so I guess we all have our own opinions on the subject. Happy growing to you sir!

In order to know or assume that it is brighter would be to own both and compare. Again, you are running the same LED's as Black Star, but double the price. Look and you will see a USA Flag Across the shape of America selling for these companies that are "Identical" to the Black Star's LED's, but double the price from this company that sells the 180W, same LED manufacturers. I think I'm not the 1st time you have read for the thousandth time that they are all made in China, and you have to know what LED's are inside, and what degree they are angled. There are few LED's that the USA has a hold on. Your eyes will not be able to tell which one has the most advanced Photosynthesis. Again, the most important light in there for growth is not visible to anyone, but it is very visible when the plant see's it. If you're noticing more light spread, or more direct light beam from the unit you use then it is simply the degree/angle of the LED's in your unit which may be angled for more coverage area, and not penetration.
I understand if you''re feeling upset, or like someone came in here & is trying to say "Hey, you wasted your money!". I'm giving advice, and a method to help you research if you so choose.
Hey, if it works, it works

 

[puffenuff]

In order to know or assume that it is brighter would be to own both and compare. Again, you are running the same LED's as Black Star, but double the price. Look and you will see a USA Flag Across the shape of America selling for these companies that are "Identical" to the Black Star's LED's, but double the price from this company that sells the 180W, same LED manufacturers. I think I'm not the 1st time you have read for the thousandth time that they are all made in China, and you have to know what LED's are inside, and what degree they are angled. There are few LED's that the USA has a hold on. Your eyes will not be able to tell which one has the most advanced Photosynthesis. Again, the most important light in there for growth is not visible to anyone, but it is very visible when the plant see's it. If you're noticing more light spread, or more direct light beam from the unit you use then it is simply the degree/angle of the LED's in your unit which may be angled for more coverage area, and not penetration.
I understand if you''re feeling upset, or like someone came in here & is trying to say "Hey, you wasted your money!". I'm giving advice, and a method to help you research if you so choose.
Hey, if it works, it works

Not upset at all buddy! I appreciate you trying to help and all, but I just don't agree with your opinion, and I do know the basics of what's inside my light and I'll bet anything that it's not the same as in the Black Star. I'll be the first to admit that I don't really know shit about all the scientific or electrical stuff, but like you said, if it works then it works, and that's all I care about. You keep saying I'm "running the same LED's as Black Star, but double the price" but that's not true and I don't know where you are getting your information from. I'm pretty sure there is a big difference in probably quality of LEDs, number used, the ratio of colors used, and number of wavelengths, not to mention the quality of drivers and heatsinks, and maybe all that adds up to make a superior and more durable product than the Black Stars. That's just my viewpoint on why I don't think I overpaid for a better product.

 

[LookN2Research]

Just call "Vic" at Gotham Hydro & let him clarify & send you articles of the only lights proven to do as advertised, and ask him what LED's are in the Unit's, and angles. Also, keep in mind he sells HID also. So, your going to get straight info. The 240 is the #1 seller worldwide. Their 500W is #2 Worldwide.
Call Vic 845-504-5723
#1 Selling LED GROW LIGHT IN THE WORLD
http://www.gothamhydroponics.com

Their site doesnt look up to date with 2 Generation old 240W. Just go to eBay and type "Black Star 240" to find the 9th gen.

 

[puffenuff]

Just call "Vic" at Gotham Hydro & let him clarify & send you articles of the only lights proven to do as advertised, and ask him what LED's are in the Unit's, and angles. Also, keep in mind he sells HID also. So, your going to get straight info. The 240 is the #1 seller worldwide. Their 500W is #2 Worldwide.
Call Vic 845-504-5723
#1 Selling LED GROW LIGHT IN THE WORLD
http://www.gothamhydroponics.com

Their site doesnt look up to date with 2 Generation old 240W. Just go to eBay and type "Black Star 240" to find the 9th gen.

You make me laugh brother! I'm not going to call them because I don't care enough. Like I said, I'm happy with my lights, and now I'm starting to think you're a salesman with a pitch like that! Take care buddy, maybe I'll see you around on the forums but I'm through trying to talk to you about this because either there's a language barrier happening here, you're very hard headed, or you're on the lighthousehydro payroll. Happy Growing dude!

 

[BlackMesa]

I agree about the value of Blackstar regarding price however I don't believe it has the same quality as other panels. I personally own and love my 2 - 240 9th gen units and have no complaints at all. I would also argue the point that you can buy 2 240's for the price of just about any of the competitions 180 watt units, you do indeed get more watts and coverage in general but lets just hope they last as long as the more expensive units. I have temp tested my heat sink in different areas and am content on the tempatures never being an issue but I do hope the drivers last.

I am also interested in that Diamond panel because it made a leap in lens/light spreading tech and that is where LEDs need to go next, we have the light now we just need the coverage. I also wanted to throw out there That there is a home made panel over at bubbleponics that has the diodes spread apart 4 fold from what current panels are doing and the thing looks to out yield panels of much higher wattage. Interesting stuff!

 

[Cococola36]

Im curious about led for veg, I've been using a quantum badboy 16 bulb unit with good results, however its around 900 watts fully lit and after 6 weeks veg I'm not that impressed by the trunk size or stem strength...Thinking about just switching to mh but before I do can led create a strong plant structure comparable too hid?

 

[Cococola36]

?? would greatly appreciate any feedback

 

[puffenuff]

Im curious about led for veg, I've been using a quantum badboy 16 bulb unit with good results, however its around 900 watts fully lit and after 6 weeks veg I'm not that impressed by the trunk size or stem strength...Thinking about just switching to mh but before I do can led create a strong plant structure comparable too hid?

?? would greatly appreciate any feedback

Some of the healthiest, bushiest indoor vegging plants with the thickest stalks I've seen were grown with LEDs. So, yes, I believe they can.

 

[bodyshop54]

my personal experience with some 90w and 45w ufo type LED setups has been that for cloneing the blue ones are sweet,especially if you wanna take tall clones in aeroponics i like the 1w 90 bulb configuration in blue i have used the red ones in a area of a bloom room covering a few plants and also big $1300 replace a 1k hid supposedly led light and everything grew very dense underneath it and was better than using t5s but no where near the area a 1k air cooled can cover in regards to sqft and penetration
so i have about 10 for sale now hahaha anyone in michigan just pm me they are awsome for veg and clone and supplemental. they make the clones stand up and point at them its really funny in homemade aero cloner they would follow that led anywhere

 

[Cococola36]

Some of the healthiest, bushiest indoor vegging plants with the thickest stalks I've seen were grown with LEDs. So, yes, I believe they can.

Thanks alot for the info puff

 

[Cococola36]

my personal experience with some 90w and 45w ufo type LED setups has been that for cloneing the blue ones are sweet,especially if you wanna take tall clones in aeroponics i like the 1w 90 bulb configuration in blue i have used the red ones in a area of a bloom room covering a few plants and also big $1300 replace a 1k hid supposedly led light and everything grew very dense underneath it and was better than using t5s but no where near the area a 1k air cooled can cover in regards to sqft and penetration
so i have about 10 for sale now hahaha anyone in michigan just pm me they are awsome for veg and clone and supplemental. they make the clones stand up and point at them its really funny in homemade aero cloner they would follow that led anywhere

I was considering led for clones considering they dont need much light

 

[RanTyr]

LEDs are too far off to be worth the investment still. CMH or HPS/MH are still far superior.

 

[puffenuff]

LEDs are too far off to be worth the investment still. CMH or HPS/MH are still far superior.

My led investments have already paid for themselves, and keep adding money back to my wallet from energy savings. How is that not a worthy investment?

 

[jdizzle22]

My led investments have already paid for themselves, and keep adding money back to my wallet from energy savings. How is that not a worthy investment?

yup, depends on the situation. Absolutely its still way too expensive, but its not TOO expensive for everyone. People who have to deal with a lot of heat will love how little heat LED produces (my 395w LED puts out less than 20% as much heat as my 400wdigital HPS system did).

Also most panels from most companies have been using way outdated crap and they are only now starting to update this year. You gotta buy a good panel from a good company if you want to grow with a good LED (because there are so many more variables than with HID systems)

 

[RanTyr]

Energy savings aren't in any way important to the plant. LEDs are still not tuned well enough to make min/maxing with them worth it. If you are what I like to call a casual enthusiast then they may work perfectly for you. That does not mean they are perfect or even close to being perfect.

 

[Red1966]

I'm not sure what your angle is.... The technology is incredibly durable. I don't know about *all* LEDs, but here's what Philip's has to say about their mortality/durability. It also explain the B/L ratings a lot more in depth. http://www.philipslumileds.com/pdfs/WP12.pdf Page 8 has the composite graph of the LEDs by B/L ratings over hours/temperature/current. 50,000 hours is the typical minimum lifetime rating for LEDs I've looked at. I'm not sure about these figures. As I recall most LEDs are 80-90% efficient at converting electrical energy to luminous flux. That's why they're so damn useful. They put out most heat via the resistance required to drive the low-power LEDs. 10w actual LED = 100w incandescent equivalaent. For a CFL it's 23w actual watts. CFLs are around 80% electrically efficient. This makes LEDs... so many people already know this., as it's probably common sense if you're any sort of nerd.. but that's over 90% efficiency. Light converted to matter? Uhm.... WTF? I can't take much more of this. The room with 1000w HPS would be significantly hotter than the one with 1000w of LEDs. They do not convert electrical energy to thermal energy equally or similarly. The difference between the HPS vs LED room could possibly be 2-3x times hotter with HPS, watt for watt. Again, times the difference, not ambient temperature(aka measure & substract the baseline from the results). Why? The LEDs have a surface area advantage, in addition to the aforementioned reasons. This will act as a much larger heat sink, allowing more efficient thermal(mostly convection, as our cooling source is air movement) exchange. The HPS outputs powerful radiant heat, this penetrates/strikes surfaces deeper/more intensely, warming them internally, causing higher emissivity of radiant heat(turns struck objects into heaters), increasing the amount of retransmitted/irradiated IR rays(as many surfaces absorb light ranges, and remit vastly different, often useless ranges, like FIR heat signatures, radio waves, etc.). Even if it's as claimed, consider taking one match, or lighter, versus, say 10? Assuming HPS is "10 times better than LED." This is just an argument to make a point, and not technically accurate. Anyway, consider 10 butane lighters, individually, each lighting a joint perhaps. Now put them all together, to form one flame. It's the same energy, but certainly a more dangerous(you could torch an ENTIRE single joint), and much higher temperature ball of flame. Entropy quickly brings excitation to rest. Having a single much higher temperature source(1100C arc in the HID lamp) will also create a higher ambient temperature. And a decaying gradient from the light source, so also room temperature irregularity. WTF, again. Voltage (E) is equal to current (I) multiplied by resistance (R). If one changes the other will change, assuming R is fairly constant. -- Other manufacturers(CFL) who claim to out shine HID: www.nexstarlighting.com http://www.maxlite.com/PDFs/FocusSheets/HighMax.pdf -- Seems to make sense that an equal wattage of CFL or LED would be superior to HID(30% vs 80-90% electrical efficency). The problem is execution, and lost light, and it's a problem in most setups. HPS? No... not really. The best LEDs are over 150 LM/w, HPS tops out around 140 LM/w(brand new HQ bulb on a HQ ballast). Maybe low pressure sodium oxide lamps(200LM/w) are more efficient than LEDs, but not HPS. Especially if you consider 50k hours(basically 6 full years), a fairly long life when temps stay under 120C. You'd have to replace your HID bulb around 6 times to stay above 70-80% rated output. That's around $500 for hiqh quality bulbs. Then operating 1000W... what, about $900.00-$1800USD/year? So $1400.00-$2210.00 + ballast/fixture versus.... how much are these LEDs? Versus LED, which by the numbers, well, divide $$900-$1800 (depends on your kWh) by how much better you think an LED is. A difference of a grand, maybe.

Not a word you posted is true. LEDs and HID are about 40% efficient. Your "common knowledge" is bullshit. I've never heard anyone claim LEDs were 80% or more efficient, except maybe some clueless salesman. Maybe you and the idiot who plans to use Christmass tree lights should team up.