Why Are We Broke?

[NoDrama]

Name some specific cuts that you think we can make without harming the economy and start adding up the amounts. I'm interested in what and how much you come up with. A lot has already been cut and more are scheduled. When you run out of things to cut, maybe you could consider returning to Clinton's Tax rates which helped the economy grow each of the 8 years Clinton was in office which was the longest period of economic growth in the history of the US.

Clinton's tax rates worked. The economy grew under them every year.

Where did you assume that I was against raising taxes? I am more concerned with Cutting spending though, because seriously that is where the problem REALLY is.

Clinton had a GIANT tech BOOOOOOM during his years in office. That is what drove the economy, not his higher tax rates.

Clinton presided over the longest period of economic growth? By what measure are we talking here? No recessions? 5%+ GDP growth per year, Least amount of welfare? The question is severely misleading. Clinton's years were certainly not even close to the greatest period of growth in the USA. The Statistic is disingenuous at best.

 

[BendBrewer]

Clinton had a GIANT tech BOOOOOOM during his years in office. That is what drove the economy, not his higher tax rates.

Clinton presided over the longest period of economic growth? By what measure are we talking here? No recessions? 5%+ GDP growth per year, Least amount of welfare? The question is severely misleading. Clinton's years were certainly not even close to the greatest period of growth in the USA. The Statistic is disingenuous at best.

Clinton's tax hike did not kill jobs or hurt the economy. In fact, jobs were created and the economy boomed after Clinton raised taxes. The GOP was wrong about tax increases then and they are wrong when they say the same thing about tax increases now.

What indicator do you want to look at? 8 straight years of Economic Growth averaging 4% per year.

Most jobs ever created under one President. Median Family Income Up $6,000.Unemployment at Its Lowest Level in More than 30 Years. Lowest Inflation since the 1960s. Highest Homeownership Rate on Record. 7 Million Fewer Americans Living in Poverty.

Those were the good old days. Let's give that another shot.

 

[hazyintentions]

Clinton's tax hike did not kill jobs or hurt the economy. In fact, jobs were created and the economy boomed after Clinton raised taxes. The GOP was wrong about tax increases then and they are wrong when they say the same thing about tax increases now.

What indicator do you want to look at? 8 straight years of Economic Growth averaging 4% per year.

Most jobs ever created under one President. Median Family Income Up $6,000.Unemployment at Its Lowest Level in More than 30 Years. Lowest Inflation since the 1960s. Highest Homeownership Rate on Record. 7 Million Fewer Americans Living in Poverty.

Those were the good old days. Let's give that another shot.

Clinton wasn't dealing with a 14.4 trillion dollar deficit either man. Looking back I was only a kid then but I believe Clinton did a good job although I'm upset about the whitewater affair he did a good job in office. With that said, do you want me to fetch the a reply I posted earlier relating to the exuberant amount of money the rich are taxed?

I am not defending Reagan but I wanted to just do some simple math here.

Let's say you are a CEO of a small time corporation, or a proud owner of a small business that is booming and you make an annual income of $500,000 a year and file as the head of the household.

According to the 2011 tax bracket you first off have to pay $106,637.50 from the baseline income of the top tier bracket which is $379,150 PLUS you then owe 35% of everything you make over the $379,150.

So $500,000.00
-$106,637.50
$393,362.50 <--- This is what your down to just after the baseline tax. Then you have to subtract another 35% off everything you made over $379,150.00 So that's 35% of $120,850 which comes out too $42,297.50

$393,362.50
- $ 42,297.50
$351,065.50 <--- That number is what you net only after federal taxes, not including the states cut, and whatever you would have to pay into SS.

If you that person you just handed the government $148,935 before any deductions simply in income taxes. Percentage wise that is 29.79% (rounded) of your income. 1/3 Just chopped right off. Money your probably worked hard for from a position you spent most of your life straining to get.

$148,935..


Compared to more common income of say $70,000 from simplicities sake. Once again, assuming Head of household filing status. Out of that gross number you would be taxed $12,267.50 before any deductions. That's 18.11% of your gross income. A lower rate than the "top tier" earners. (For simplicity sake I didn't put up the steps as before because , well the number just aren't as mind boggling)

Now let's put those numbers side by side

$148,935 vs. $12,267.50
(29.79% of a $500k gross income) (18.11% of a $70k gross income)

Not only are the rich going to pay almost 10% more than what I consider a "middle class" salary and they pay more than 12 times as much income tax as the person earning 70k.

Their water does come out 12 times faster,or 12 times hotter. Their returns don't come back 12 times quicker and the police don't respond for them 12 times quicker do they?

My point is I'm tired of this "the rich have to do their part. Pay their fair share" montra, it's completely bullshit. The top 1% earners in this country covers almost 95% of the taxes our government "collects" from us.

Class warfare is at an end and it's just beating a dead horse. Would do we allow the country villainize the rich whom not only pay more percentage wise but pay many times the amount of tax we do?

I am not rich, I am on the very opposite end but I am sick of this mindset I keep seeing that somehow the rich are "responsible" for the bad yet they are the key supporters when it comes to keeping the government pumped full of money. It's fallout and blame meant to distort us. The rich should not be a target or a villain..

The tax rates on the rich are ridiculous, to even suggest that we should raise them more for any one to make up for this monstrous debt our government is raking in for us is even a worse idea.

Do you understand that "cuts" aren't "cuts" they are only decreasing the increase in spending. Have you seen the charts and numbers? There is talk about almost doubling our deficit! We don't have double the people or double the land so why our we going to double or government?

MY though. FREEZE the budget right here and now as it is. That in itself would balance the budget in like 8 years. Even better than that? Bring our troops home! There's at least 500 billion is spending a year cut. What about all the troops? Take a portion of that 500 billion saved and train them for jobs that can help rebuild our infrastructure (roads, electricity, water mains) as well as jobs to help develop better way to power our country (free solar,wind,water power, drill our own oil). Even more, strip the federal reserve's power to print money! Stop them from inflating our dollar.

You can even keep all the entitlements for now and still turn this country around ! It's not fucking rocket science, it's common sense. Unless you have a better idea, if so please do divulge it.

 

[BendBrewer]

You forgot to mention any of the numreous tax loop holes that someone who makes 500k uses to avoid taxes.

Nice try though. Hope you didn't waste too mush time on it.

The simple answer is to raise taxes that Bush cut based on erroneous data. No Surplus - no justification for the cuts. You simply cannot deny this.

 

[hazyintentions]

You forgot to mention any of the numreous tax loop holes that someone who makes 500k uses to avoid taxes.

Nice try though. Hope you didn't waste too mush time on it.

The simple answer is to raise taxes that Bush cut based on erroneous data. No Surplus - no justification for the cuts. You simply cannot deny this.

If I was making an honest 500k a year and the government wanted to take 1/3 of it I would use those same loopholes as well. No I'm not saying I'm in favor in them but it is a bit ridiculous to ascertain that the rich need to be taxed more. Close the numerous loopholes, I would be for that, but not more taxes. My point is that just targeting the rich is well pointless, we need to get down to brass tacks and stop spending more than our country makes. raising taxes wouldn't even put the slightest dent in the deficit. I remember hearing somewhere if you taxed the top tier earners 100% is still wouldn't come closet o balancing the budget. Not sure if that's right but my point is simple, stop spending increases.

Are you against FREEZING the budget? Why don't you address and shoot down the idea of bringing troops home while your at it? I mean what did the USA do after the Great Depression? We invested our money into infrastructure, technology, and growth, not some useless and illegal wars on make believe enemies who I don't' even believe would of ever bothered us has we stayed out of their country.

Fuck all the other half ass plans, you wanna fix the budget, it's simple:
- FREEZE domestic spending at what it is
- Bring the troops home
- Invest in architecture
- Use our own resources

What is wrong with that plan?

 

[BendBrewer]

Fuck all the other half ass plans, you wanna fix the budget, it's simple:
- FREEZE domestic spending at what it is
- Bring the troops home
- Invest in architecture
- Use our own resources

Obama? Is that you? If so, I don't know why you had to repeat yourself here.

 

[hazyintentions]

Obama? Is that you? If so, I don't know why you had to repeat yourself here.

Ohhh aren't those some of the glittering generalities he won his election on? Tehe, I hate parties, I love liberty. But I'm at a loss in faith in the decision making ability of the people in my country.

 

[BendBrewer]

No, those are all things he has proposed since being in office including a 5 year freeze on Domestic Spending. You and he think a lot alike. Talk to the McCains of the world if you want our troops home. He and his kind don't think bringing our troops home is "Not Too Important".

Invest in Infrastructure? You bet Obama knows that we need to do that. The Obama Administration&#8217;s budget proposal, announced Feb. 14, included a record $3.2 billion in funding for 28 transit construction projects across the United States.

Now what do you think the Republicans had to say about that? What in the world do you think the talking heads at Fox News had to say about it?

And investing in energy has always been part of his plan. The Republicans just want to use up all the oil.

I am wondering who you voted for.

 

[Cali chronic]

Legalize all drugs, stop spending on enforcement. Use the left over Police or DEA to crack down on insurance, medicare and food stamp fraud. Incarceration and employing those people to watch and house over 65% in jail that are non violent offenders is ludicrous as they talk about letting Felons out who rape and Rob.
65% of the judicial system NON VIOLENT! Billions there.
Afraid to legalize all drugs?
10,000 heroin related deaths in a year
450.000 deaths related to cigarettes.
Diabetes and sugar I can go on...
No Aid to these country's we are buying friendship.(Like Somalia) Pull out of the Muslim Jew War and let them settle it. Like the US did with Britain. Yes, we got some cannons from France but no lives or anything like that.
Like George Bush that Bastard and his drug dealing Contra friends, those people need to be brought up on charges and hung, thereby stopping their cushy pensions and evil ways.
There is enough right there to get us to even keel before they ask you and your kids for more then 38% of your income and do nothing for the economy but suck it dry with their badges and missions. No matter what label they give themselves.

 

[hazyintentions]

No, those are all things he has proposed since being in office including a 5 year freeze on Domestic Spending. You and he think a lot alike. Talk to the McCains of the world if you want our troops home. He and his kind don't think bringing our troops home is "Not Too Important".

Invest in Infrastructure? You bet Obama knows that we need to do that. The Obama Administration’s budget proposal, announced Feb. 14, included a record $3.2 billion in funding for 28 transit construction projects across the United States.

Now what do you think the Republicans had to say about that? What in the world do you think the talking heads at Fox News had to say about it?

And investing in energy has always been part of his plan. The Republicans just want to use up all the oil.

I am wondering who you voted for.

Let me redefine what I consider "domestic spending" to include entitlements. I have to respectfully say that no, I don't think anything like Obama, he is a pathological liar.

[video=youtube;HUTYL8HfCGo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUTYL8HfCGo[/video]

When Obama proposes those bills what the people are misses are all the earmarks and red tape that are put up so the government can siphon some of the top.

The american reinvestment and recovery act is the only piece of legislation Obama has passed that I can even slightly agree with and partially because I managed to get 2 months worth of work out of it helping to erect steel buildings.

I didn't vote, I knew from his campaign the Obama would never fulfill his "promises" he never truly gave me any reason to believe in him and I couldn't accept McCain either, it was a fucked up scenario. Had I known about Ron Paul I would have wrote him in. So I did NOT vote for Barrack Hussein Obama.

Back to infrastructure imagine if we took even 20% of our current military expenditure after bringing troops home and invested it in rebuilding newer better bridges, rebuilding our electrical infrastructure. Investing in small start up researching and developing new more efficient solar panels, wind generators, electric motors, batteries, and EV technology. I believe our troops (veterans at this point) would be doing our country a better better service helping to pioneer new technology such as this.

Don't affiliate me, both parties are a joke and miles from what the were originally founded as. Republicans, Democrats, Conservative, Liberal, Libertarian, Progressive. Don't thos all sound like titles to help divide our country?

I am an American. If I had to squeeze myself under any of the titles above I would be a Conservative Libertarian with progressive ideas in new technology.

ahh I lost where I was even going, it's all such a shit storm.

 

[BendBrewer]

I don't view programs like SS and Medicare, 2 programs that I have paid over $54,0000 in the last 10 years alone into, entitlement programs.

I'm with you on the Military spending. I consider expecting to be able to wage war anywhere in the world no matter the cost an entitlement program.

But the programs that I pay into and expect something out of are Social Insurance Programs, not Entitlements. By contributing to these programs, I am investing in the American People. I cannot think of a better investment or a more Patriotic one.

Tell that to a Tea Bagger and watch their head explode.

 

[undertheice]

I don't view programs like SS and Medicare, 2 programs that I have paid over $54,0000 in the last 10 years alone into, entitlement programs.

I'm with you on the Military spending. I consider expecting to be able to wage war anywhere in the world no matter the cost an entitlement program.

since the inception of these safety net programs, the average lifespan in the united states has increased by almost fifteen years. while i'll agree that these are not, strictly speaking, entitlements, something obviously must change in these programs that are essentially nothing more than pyramid schemes. national defense, unlike these government mandated scams, is a prime duty of the federal government. trimming the fat is certainly a necessity, but, as recent events have shown us, the heart must not be cut out of our capacity to defend ourselves. as the globe continues to shrink, world wide response is a necessity for one of the planet's preeminent powers.

 

[BendBrewer]

They say 1 in 8 Americans that pay into SS die before getting a dime out of it. By the time I am of age I will have paid over 1/4 million into it. Expecting that money back with interest isn't getting a hand out. Again, I proudly invest in Americans.

Going over seas to kill people doesn't protect Americans, it protects American Corporations. They should pay for it. Tax Payers should not have an open check book for the War Mongers.

Expecting to be protected with other people's money is for pussies and is socialism.

 

[hazyintentions]

I don't view programs like SS and Medicare, 2 programs that I have paid over $54,0000 in the last 10 years alone into, entitlement programs.

I'm with you on the Military spending. I consider expecting to be able to wage war anywhere in the world no matter the cost an entitlement program.

But the programs that I pay into and expect something out of are Social Insurance Programs, not Entitlements. By contributing to these programs, I am investing in the American People. I cannot think of a better investment or a more Patriotic one.

Tell that to a Tea Bagger and watch their head explode.

True, and if I was you I would expect my returns as well when the time came, the system is not a complete failure but it needs major changes to get going back in the right direction again. Such as a bill declaring the US government can not touch the Social Security under any circumstances. As far as medicare, this "Obama-care" idea is absolutely appalling to me and the fact that the auto-correct recognizes "Obama-care" as a word says something in itself. I am not against the cuore ideals of these programs but they need major reform and you may think you investing in the "people" but truth is your investing the Federal government and it's just not right, they can take that money whenever they feel like it. I would rather pay into my OWN insurance and safety net, I am willing to bet my life that I could invest the money the government takes out of my checks much better than by letting them control it for the hopes of getting it back when the time comes only to have to jump through hoops just to get access to the program you paid into your entire life.

It's a ponzi scheme at this point and I don't want anything to do with it. I want to be able to opt out if I feel so inclined, Social Security should not be a mandatory tax for those who do not want it.

Anything I pay into it I will never get back and that's is robbery as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Corso312]

we are broke actually..if china calls in the loans we have we would be fucked..the dollar would collapse..biggest reason why we are broke is greed..defense spending is a huge failure and the biggest single reason we are broke

 

[BendBrewer]

we are broke actually..if china calls in the loans we have we would be fucked..the dollar would collapse..biggest reason why we are broke is greed..defense spending is a huge failure and the biggest single reason we are broke

We don't owe China as much as you think and collapsing our dollar would hurt China as much or more than us.

That's why China buys our debt on the open market. Helps keep their currency cheap. If the value of their money rises, then it costs everyone in the world more to buy Chinese goods. Global economics is pretty interesting.

 

[Corso312]

i am estimating that we owe china somewhere in the neighborhood of 950 billion dollars

 

[hazyintentions]

We don't owe China as much as you think.

Your right, that is another falsification led by media on both sides of the isle, it's not much compared to what our deficit is (sad to say isn't it) but the amount is still substantial enough to kick our economy off the tall rock it's already teetering on. China's success is mostly due to our failure to as a country.

I hate people who confuse defense spending and Militarism, don't cut defense spending, our borders our in trouble, bring our troops home close at least 75% of the bases worldwide and we can combine that with a frozen budget to balance the budget in no time.

The single most important part of restoring our economy is stopping our (failing ) worldwide empire, doesn't the US spend close to 1 trillion a year on these illegal and unannounced wars? And people wonder why the rest of the world looks at us with an eyebrow raised?

My number #1 concern is ending our global military-industrial complex. Obama promised and failed to come through, we need a real politician, a real candidate. For me that man's name is Ron Paul. Despite some of his more extreme views on certain topics he has always been right about our economy, our foreign policy, and the federal reserve. I also believe he is right about all these "departments" they are a waste of taxpayer dollars and should be stripped into nothing. America: Built for the People, By the People... not Built for the Government by the people.

There is a major uprising as people are realizing this and I can only hope Americans can look past making emotional decisions and drop the pre tense that they have to be part of and supportive of one party or another.

 

[redivider]

since the inception of these safety net programs, the average lifespan in the united states has increased by almost fifteen years. while i'll agree that these are not, strictly speaking, entitlements, something obviously must change in these programs that are essentially nothing more than pyramid schemes. national defense, unlike these government mandated scams, is a prime duty of the federal government. trimming the fat is certainly a necessity, but, as recent events have shown us, the heart must not be cut out of our capacity to defend ourselves. as the globe continues to shrink, world wide response is a necessity for one of the planet's preeminent powers.

unless the president is a black democrat... then ANY sort of military action is against our interests and just stinks of socialism.... am I correct??

 

[Corso312]

well all that money you want to cut out is considered "defense" actually ..the 1000 base we have world wide..and i am sure there are more that we don't know about..cut em all..send troops home , agreed..all those bases only create more anti american feelings and increase the chance of an attack..so they actually make you less safe and bankrupt us while doing so.. clean and renewable affordable energy is also a must..but greed will stop all this from ever being addressed