Obama can cite the 14th Amendment of the Constitution

mame

Well-Known Member
The economy is headed for collapse. Whether it is next week or next year. Sometimes you need to amputate a limb to save the patient. Intentional brush fires are set to clear out the build up of combustable growth and in doing so, prevents catastrophic fires. Old buildings are brought down to make way for new construction. Power grids, under extreme conditions, are allowed to fail, so as to make it easier to pick up the pieces later and get the power flowing again. Bad teeth are pulled, instead of waiting for them to drop out on their own. Invasive surgeries are performed to remove tissue that endangers the patient.
Adding to the debt, minuscule cuts in spending, years down the road and trying to tame the beast while allowing it to continue to grow is tantamount to a doctor, whose treatment of a patient is not working, so he prescribes more of the same.
It may be better to let the pressure off now than to wait until later when the results may be even worse.
Your "we must destroy it to save it" attitude will only make things worse; Your entire premise is based off of the idea that we've been in a giant bubble for decades fueled by inflation, etc and that's just not true. Keep on making predictions... I look forward to seeing your catastrophe never take place.
 

Mr Neutron

Well-Known Member
Your "we must destroy it to save it" attitude will only make things worse; Your entire premise is based off of the idea that we've been in a giant bubble for decades fueled by inflation, etc and that's just not true. Keep on making predictions... I look forward to seeing your catastrophe never take place.
I don't WANT it to happen but there is little evidence that Congress is going to do anything to stop it. They're too busy repeating bipartisan mantras of compromise and sacrifice. Their compromise=our sacrifice.
 

SlicePro

Member
Your "we must destroy it to save it" attitude will only make things worse; Your entire premise is based off of the idea that we've been in a giant bubble for decades fueled by inflation, etc and that's just not true. Keep on making predictions... I look forward to seeing your catastrophe never take place.
Seems like your the only one in this thread with an actual SENSE of reality. Republicans or Republican Ideologists can offer nothing more than scare tactics, fear mongering, conspiracys and WHAT if scenarios to save their FAST dying way of the "Conservative" lifestyle.
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
What you guys are talking about isn't just about personal responsibility blah blah blah... A balanced budget Amendment ensures economic ruin, there's just no other way to say it. There is no workaround. There is no way to avoid "Fear mongering"... The passage of a balanced budget amendment is on par with electing Sarah Palin as POTUS... It's just a bad idea.

I mean, Luger hit it on the head; Austerity can be done in normal times and it wont hurt an economy too terribly but Austerity in the face of economic downturn makes the downturn WORSE. ND, don't play dumb - you know full well the economic ramifications this Ham-fisted bill would have... If you think the government is too big, cool; But to support a bill that completely destroys the U.S. economy is, well... destructive... And for what? To serve your idealogical agenda of "starving the beast"?
When are you going to learn that no matter what Government does we are all screwed? Government has zero control over money, none, nada zip. therefore it ultimately has zero control over the economy. Fractional reserve banking and the unstoppable ever compounding interest that comes from being legally levered at 12 to 1 but becomes many many times worse when some of the biggest financial institutions have $1 in reserves for every $333 in loans. Legally they can have no more than 1 to 12 ratio. LOL Goldman Sachs is levered like a MoFo, any idea how much the interest payments on that amount come to? Hint: its more than $10 billion a year.
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
Your "we must destroy it to save it" attitude will only make things worse; Your entire premise is based off of the idea that we've been in a giant bubble for decades fueled by inflation, etc and that's just not true. Keep on making predictions... I look forward to seeing your catastrophe never take place.
LOl yep, no devaluation here (Devaluation is the exact same thing as inflation).

Here is a graph to prove it.
you love graphs.

 

mame

Well-Known Member
LOl yep, no devaluation here (Devaluation is the exact same thing as inflation).

Here is a graph to prove it.
you love graphs.

I never said there hasn't been any inflation, I said that the idea that we've been in one giant bubble economy for several decades is not true; I said "fueled by inflation, etc" in reference to constant pointing to inflation to support the "bubble economy" theory.
 

Mr Neutron

Well-Known Member
Seems like your the only one in this thread with an actual SENSE of reality. Republicans or Republican Ideologists can offer nothing more than scare tactics, fear mongering, conspiracys and WHAT if scenarios to save their FAST dying way of the "Conservative" lifestyle.
Do you mean scare tactics like going on prime time, national TV networks to tell the people on SS that they may not get their SS checks? Do you mean fear mongering like if we don't raise the debt ceiling, we will default? Do you mean conspiracies and WHAT if scenarios like "we CAN borrow and spend our way out of recession"?
I can't speak for everyone who has contributed to this thread but I am neither a Republican or a conservative.
 

mame

Well-Known Member
This is actually a pretty decent summary of the consequences of adding a balanced budget amendment to the constitution:
We, the undersigned economists, urge the rejection of proposals to add a balanced-budget amendment to the U.S. Constitution. While the nation faces significant fiscal problems that need to be addressed through measures that start to take effect after the economy is strong enough to absorb them, writing a requirement into the Constitution that the budget be balanced each year would represent very unsound policy. Adding additional restrictions, as some balanced budget amendment proposals would do, such as an arbitrary cap on total federal expenditures, would make the balanced budget amendment even worse.

1. A balanced budget amendment would mandate perverse actions in the face of recessions.

In economic downturns, tax revenues fall and some outlays, such as unemployment benefits, rise. These so-called built-in stabilizers increase the deficit but limit declines of after-tax income and purchasing power. To keep the budget balanced every year would aggravate recessions.

2. Unlike many state constitutions, which permit borrowing to finance capital expenditures, the federal budget makes no distinction between capital investments and current outlays. Private businesses and households borrow all the time to finance capital spending. A balanced budget amendment would prevent federal borrowing to finance expenditures for infrastructure, education, research and development, environmental protection, and other investment vital to the nation’s future well being.

3. A balanced budget amendment would invite Congress to enact unfunded mandates, requiring states, localities, and private businesses to do what it cannot finance itself. It also invites dubious accounting maneuvers (such as selling more public lands and other assets and counting the proceeds as deficit-reducing revenues), and other budgetary gimmicks.

Disputes on the meaning of budget balance would likely end up in the courts, resulting in judge-made economic policy. So would disputes about how to balance an unbalanced budget when Congress lacks the votes to inflict painful cuts.

4. Balanced budget amendment proposals typically contain escape hatches, but in peacetime they require super-majorities of each House to adopt an unbalanced budget or to raise the debt limit. These provisions are recipes for gridlock.

5. An overall spending cap, which is part of some proposed amendments, would further limit Congress’s ability to fight recessions through either the built-in automatic stabilizers or deliberate changes in fiscal policy. Even during expansions, a binding spending cap could harm economic growth because increases in high-return investments—even those fully paid for with additional revenue—would be deemed unconstitutional if not offset by other spending reductions. A binding spending cap also would mean that emergency spending (for example on natural disasters) would necessitate reductions elsewhere, leading to increased volatility in the funding for non-emergency programs.

6. A Constitutional amendment is not needed to balance the budget. The budget not only attained balance, but actually recorded surpluses and reduced debt, for four consecutive years after Congress enacted budget plans in the 1990s that reduced spending growth and raised revenues. This was done under the existing Constitution, and it can be done again.

No other major nation hobbles its economy with a balanced-budget mandate. There is no need to put the nation in an economic straitjacket. Let the President and Congress make fiscal policies in response to national needs and priorities as the authors of our Constitution wisely provided.

7. It is dangerous to try to balance the budget too quickly in today’s economy. The large spending cuts and/or tax increases that would be needed to do so would greatly damage an already-weak recovery.

The letter was signed by, among others, Nobel Prize winners Kenneth Arrow, Peter Diamond, Eric Maskin, William Sharpe and Robert Solow.
 

WillyBagseed

Active Member
Are you leading to that acceptance that the government should bail the people out?! The government should pump money out for the hope of diminishing returns?

No comment..
The Government is not here to make a profit, it is supposed to take care of the wishes of the majority of people " For the Common Good".

What I like (sarcasm) in the bill is the fact you need a super majority to raise revenue but only a simple majority to raise spending......


Anybody ever read the "2 Santa Clause memo" from 1976?

The Two Santa Claus Theory is a political theory and strategy published by Wanniski in 1976, which he promoted within the U.S. Republican Party.
The theory states that, in democratic elections, if one party appeals to voters by proposing more spending, then a competing party cannot gain broader appeal by proposing less spending. The first "Santa Claus" of the theory title refers to the political party that promises spending. Instead, "Two Santa Claus Theory" recommends that the competing party must assume the role of a second Santa Claus by offering some other appealing options.
This theory is a response to the belief of monetarists, and especially Milton Friedman, that the government must be starved of revenue in order to control the growth of spending (since, in the view of the monetarists, spending cannot be reduced by elected bodies as the political pressure to spend is too great).
The "Two Santa Claus Theory" does not argue against this belief, but holds that such arguments cannot be espoused in an effort to win democratic elections. In Wanniski's view, the Laffer curve and supply-side economics provide an attractive alternative rationale for revenue reduction: that under reduced taxation the economy will grow, not merely that the government will be starved of revenue, and that that growth is an attractive option to present to the voters. Wanniski argued that Republicans must become the tax-cutting Santa Claus to the Democrats' spending Santa Claus.

In practice it has been used by Republicans... spend spend spend when in power (tax cuts to the rich and tax increases to the middle class and poor by Reagan, tax cuts to the rich,wars during Governor Bush's term, I refuse to call him President) then bitch about the deficit and spending when Dems are in power.

Anybody see what happened to California with its FINE balanced budget amendment ? .... lol

Willyß
 

MuyLocoNC

Well-Known Member
Let's not use California as a model for any economic argument. I was born and raised in Southern California, but I escaped...before the liberal lunacy could infect me.
 

beardo

Well-Known Member
Willyßagseed;6031324 said:
The Government is not here to make a profit, it is supposed to take care of the wishes of the majority of people
No It Is Not !!!
This belief is why we are in the situation were in now
The purpose of Govt is not to give out free lunches.
 

Mr Neutron

Well-Known Member
Willyßagseed;6031324 said:
The Government is not here to make a profit, it is supposed to take care of the wishes of the majority of people " For the Common Good".
This is an all too common misconception. It reminds me of what I heard Bob Scheiffer, chief Washington correspondent for CBS say, "It's the government's job to make people's lives better."
With attitudes like that, is it any wonder we don't get the truth from MSM?
 

SlicePro

Member
Do you mean scare tactics like going on prime time, national TV networks to tell the people on SS that they may not get their SS checks? Do you mean fear mongering like if we don't raise the debt ceiling, we will default? Do you mean conspiracies and WHAT if scenarios like "we CAN borrow and spend our way out of recession"?
I can't speak for everyone who has contributed to this thread but I am neither a Republican or a conservative.
Key word there is MAY. Last time I checked, the Government will only have enough cash to cover 55% of its bills for August IF the debt ceiling is not raised. NOBODY can be guaranteed a payment if the US cannot meet 45% of its obligations. That includes Social Secuirity, Verterans, Military, Disabled, interest on DEBT, SNAP programs, payments to the Chinese government.
 

Luger187

Well-Known Member
This is an all too common misconception. It reminds me of what I heard Bob Scheiffer, chief Washington correspondent for CBS say, "It's the government's job to make people's lives better."
With attitudes like that, is it any wonder we don't get the truth from MSM?
what do you think the government is for?
 

hazyintentions

Well-Known Member
Your "we must destroy it to save it" attitude will only make things worse; Your entire premise is based off of the idea that we've been in a giant bubble for decades fueled by inflation, etc and that's just not true. Keep on making predictions... I look forward to seeing your catastrophe never take place.
I must ask, did you miss the 2008 collapse of the housing "bubble"?? Do you buy food? Ever notice that a gallon of milk now costs as much if not more than a gallon of gas? If government wasn't so far up every small business ass trying to sniff out every last dime in taxes and "codes" that they could things wouldn't be so rough.. If government had not bailed out all those big companies the economy would of went through the end of it's downfall and at this very moment we could've been in an upswing, the economy goes up and down , up and down, the more the government interferes with the natural cycle of the economy the worse of it will become and the worse it is for us (the people footing the bill).

This is basic civics and economics, how is it that I can still be a teenager and see through all the crap but most 30 and 40 yr old adults seem to be clueless??

In fact, the president said during one of his appearances that he had a plan but "wouldn't bore you with the details"... GTFO?! Obama doesn't want to share his plan? Probably because it does nothing but give him more money to waste!!


Just to be sure we are on the same page remember these speeches???

[video=youtube;cfu1_Scgyow]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfu1_Scgyow&feature=related[/video]

What was that second, oh wait FOURTH one? "No more secrecy"???
 

WillyBagseed

Active Member
No It Is Not !!!
This belief is why we are in the situation were in now
The purpose of Govt is not to give out free lunches.
You guys should read the Constitution some time, Like I said the Government is not here to make a profit. The Constitution CLEARLY states it is to serve "We the People".

And nowhere do I mention free lunches.

this is just the Preamble.......

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence,promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.


"The laying of taxes is the power, and the general welfare the purpose for which the power is to be exercised." - Thomas Jefferson
 

hazyintentions

Well-Known Member
Willyßagseed;6031873 said:
You guys should read the Constitution some time, Like I said the Government is not here to make a profit. The Constitution CLEARLY states it is to serve "We the People".

And nowhere do I mention free lunches.

this is just the Preamble.......

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence,promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.


"The laying of taxes is the power, and the general welfare the purpose for which the power is to be exercised." - Thomas Jefferson
Insuring domestic tranquility would mean not putting our country in debt in my mind, not devaluing our dollar! Not fighting 3 un declared and 100% illegal wars. Hell you can put that under the warfare clause as well, I'm sure as hell not faring well with this government. Is anybody gonna realize enough is enough and stop making excuses for our government? We are feeding this monstrous machine as we have done for decades and this point in time is the vanishing point, I don't know what I'm going to tell my kids in 30 years when they asked what happened to America .
 

WillyBagseed

Active Member
The America I grew up in took a shit in about 1981, a year after I got out of high school.

Every "war" we have been in since WW2 has been Undeclared. Technically, the USA has not been in a war since 1945 ish.
 
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