For The "Liberals" In The Forum ...

[BudMcLovin]

Liberals don't know where they want to go until they are lead there. They just know their neighbors shouldn't have more than them even though the neighbor works smarter and/or harder. They know they should be tolerant of all dictators and tyrants. Anyone who believes in personal responsibility and individual freedom is the enemy. They believe in punishing someone for their thoughts. They don't rely on facts and logic to make decisions but feelings and emotions.

Our liberal President and his minions want to fundamentally change America and to do that they have to destroy the beliefs, ideas and traditions already present in this country. They know people will never accept servitude to the state in a rich nation so they must destroy the economy to give us what we deserve.

 

[undertheice]

so we are five pages into this thread and not a single one of our liberal lights have deigned to honor us with an answer to the original question. we have been given the dictionary definition of the word, but no one seems to know what they stand for. we have seen blame shifting and a round of general insult, but no clear idea of what liberal ideology is pointing us toward. it would seem that the liberals here have a pretty good idea what they are against, but they haven't the slightest concept of where their masters are leading us. maybe they simply don't care.

 

[NoDrama]

I noticed that they haven't given any answers also, I just figured it was because they had no specific goals and no idea what they were doing.

 

[mame]

I noticed that they haven't given any answers also, I just figured it was because they had no specific goals and no idea what they were doing.

There is no utopia.

I have given specific instances in which government should intervene(many threads, many times), like in times of recession or to help innovation that shows promise but struggles to make a profit at the beginning due to hefty research and development costs, etc. (like green energy). For example, as someone who has worked in the lighting industry I've watched LED lightbulbs go from over $100 each to $15-50(highly dependant on quality)... No one was buying $100 lightbulbs... What do you think gave these companies the incentive to research LEDs(linked is an example)? Pretty soon that investment will pay off, as LEDs are on track to be cheap enough for mass use within the next 5 or so years, in part thanks to government assistance in the absence of private investment.

You dont need a grand vision to realize government intervention can be useful at times (just as it's not always the best tool either), the important thing - I believe - is to remember that government and markets are not opposing forces, the relationship is meant to be symbiotic.

 

[UncleBuck]

so we are five pages into this thread and not a single one of our liberal lights have deigned to honor us with an answer to the original question. we have been given the dictionary definition of the word, but no one seems to know what they stand for. we have seen blame shifting and a round of general insult, but no clear idea of what liberal ideology is pointing us toward. it would seem that the liberals here have a pretty good idea what they are against, but they haven't the slightest concept of where their masters are leading us. maybe they simply don't care.

I noticed that they haven't given any answers also, I just figured it was because they had no specific goals and no idea what they were doing.

so i reject a loaded question riddled with false assumptions, and all of a sudden my "masters" are leading me around?



in my utopia, bill clinton is leader for life and has a 24 hour news channel which, despite the title, has very little news and lots of softcore presidential porn. the hardcore stuff starts after 11pm, but it only features anti-gay republican senators doing naughty things in airport bathroom stalls with other dudes or hiring a gay "assistant" to "carry their luggage".

in my utopia, traffic lights ask you politely to stop instead of signaling intention by color. dogs and cats exist, but their sizes are reversed. the troops are at home working n infrastructure projects and everyone in the entire world eats ice cream before going to bed. OSHA officials are on standby to support a ladder or simply to give you a hand, and bankers never charge a fee and give exceptional interest rates on savings accounts.

in my utopia, there are no price tags at the grocery stores, but the clerk will give you a nice smile if you donate enough for the food to help the poor. no one will ever step on and get stung by a bee when walking around in their backyard and you will never drop and break a wine glass while washing it. arugula munching is compulsory.

in my utopia, the DMV is replaced by the DOH, or department of hugs. that title is also misleading, as they do more than just hugs. if times are rough, which is impossible considering this is utopia, they are also there to give you a pat on the shoulder and a reassuring look. corn on the cob will be served with a mandatory number of toothpicks which will depend on how many kernels of corn become lodged in your teeth.

in my utopia, we all pay 85% of our income taxes to the government for no purpose other than to modify the weather so that it never rains on an outdoor wedding. ants that disturb picnics will be exterminated, but ones that are polite and do not disturb picnics will be relocated to canada. ron paul will be in charge of folding socks and organizing sock drawers so you are never without fresh, clean socks.

in my utopia, the government will oversee all bowel movements and will give extensive outlines and schedules concerning defecation: when you may poop, how long you may poop for, how many flushes you may take, including courtesy flushes, and will also direct you on how much toilet paper you may use to wipe.

 

[undertheice]

There is no utopia.

you do understand the meaning of the word and its origin, don't you. it is, quite literally, no place. it is the final destination that is never reached. it is the culmination of all our plans and dreams, the desired conclusion of our chosen philosophies and ideologies. occasionally impractical, it is what we see as the ultimate example of all we work for. it is what we hope for, not necessarily what we attain. this is what was asked for and what no one has yet explained.

aside from buck's tongue-in-cheek posting, no one has stepped up to describe the desired outcome of liberal intent. maybe it's because liberalism is all about putting out every little fire by any means possible. there simply is no end game envisaged aside from the well fed, clothed, housed and educated populace we would all like to see as our ultimate state. no one wants to admit that the result of statism, when taken to its logical conclusion, is slavery. no one wants to admit that enforced equality ends in mediocrity and stagnation. there is always this naive hope that, once all individual power is assembled in one authority, it will be doled out equally to us all. the "end justifies the means" mentality of modern liberalism has no "dream conclusion". it isn't about dreams at all, but about smashing them through efficiency and control.

 

[mame]

you do understand the meaning of the word and its origin, don't you. it is, quite literally, no place. it is the final destination that is never reached. it is the culmination of all our plans and dreams, the desired conclusion of our chosen philosophies and ideologies. occasionally impractical, it is what we see as the ultimate example of all we work for. it is what we hope for, not necessarily what we attain. this is what was asked for and what no one has yet explained.

aside from buck's tongue-in-cheek posting, no one has stepped up to describe the desired outcome of liberal intent. maybe it's because liberalism is all about putting out every little fire by any means possible. there simply is no end game envisaged aside from the well fed, clothed, housed and educated populace we would all like to see as our ultimate state. no one wants to admit that the result of statism, when taken to its logical conclusion, is slavery. no one wants to admit that enforced equality ends in mediocrity and stagnation. there is always this naive hope that, once all individual power is assembled in one authority, it will be doled out equally to us all. the "end justifies the means" mentality of modern liberalism has no "dream conclusion". it isn't about dreams at all, but about smashing them through efficiency and control.

What I was saying is that for me at least, there is no desired endgame. I believe that the markets and government have a symbiotic relationship; Markets lead to generally desirable results and in some cases of market failure to achieve said results, the government often has the ability to help correct those failures in the short term and can facilitate growth in the long term. Full employment, for example, is something that the government can realistically work to facilitate.

I feel like the question implies that modern liberalism is equitable to communism, but in reality - especially in the U.S. - modern liberalism is more accurately described as Democratic capitalist . Are you familier with the Samuelsonian synthesis (aka Neoclassical synthesis) of Paul Samuelson of MIT? The way I see it, this is the foundation much of modern liberalism is built upon. There are no soviet style 5 year plans in my "utopia".

 

[NoDrama]

Full employment, for example, is something that the government can realistically work to facilitate.

Full employment is the job of the Federal Reserve, not the US Government. You should know better.

 

[mame]

Full employment is the job of the Federal Reserve, not the US Government. You should know better.

Congress hols the purse strings and fiscal expansion via direct government spending is a legitimate tool for short term unemployment - especially in the dreaded liquidity trap, where more spending is the only option left as monetary policy is rendered inneffective.

You're right though, "full employment" is technically the job of the Fed.

 

[NoDrama]

Funny we gave that power to a private corporation that can not be overruled. LOL we are stuuuuuuupid people!

 

[UncleBuck]

you guys bitch and moan that we did not outline our liberal utopia, so i take the time to do so, and now you guys ignore it?

fucking dicks.

 

[undertheice]

you guys bitch and moan that we did not outline our liberal utopia, so i take the time to do so, and now you guys ignore it?

i had hoped your post was facetious. considering your posting history, i probably should have realized just how close to the truth it actually was. the whole president for life thing and the mandated defecation schedules go right along with your demand to be led by the nose in every facet of your life. the avoidance of all conflict and willful ignorance of humanity's need for it are textbook examples of modern liberalism's demand that our humanity be subverted for the needs of efficiency. the idea of giving the vast majority of one's earnings to the state and silencing the opposition by sending it to some laundry gulag is another dead giveaway, directly out of the statist's playbook, and the whole hopey-changey, lollipops and ice cream theme should have told me how honest you were actually being. i apologize for not taking your post more seriously and so drastically underestimating the inanity of today's liberal mind.

 

[holmeed]

Since the New Deal, Republicans have been on the wrong side of every issue of concern to ordinary Americans; Social Security, the war in Vietnam, Iraq,equal rights, civil liberties, church- state separation, consumer issues, public education, reproductive freedom, national health care, labor issues, gun policy, campaign-finance reform, the environment and tax fairness. No political party could remain so consistently wrong by accident.

The only rational conclusion is that, despite their cynical "family values" propaganda, the Republican Party is a criminal conspiracy to betray the interests of the American people in favor of plutocratic and corporate interests, and absolutist religious groups.

"Spite voting is mostly a white male phenomenon, which is why a majority of white males vote Republican. It comes from a toxic mix of thwarted expectations, cowardice, shame, and a particular strain of anomie that is unique to the white American male experience."

 

[holmeed]

"Spite voting is mostly a white male phenomenon, which is why a majority of white males vote Republican. It comes from a toxic mix of thwarted expectations, cowardice, shame, and a particular strain of anomie that is unique to the white American male experience."

 

[UncleBuck]

i had hoped your post was facetious. considering your posting history, i probably should have realized just how close to the truth it actually was. the whole president for life thing and the mandated defecation schedules go right along with your demand to be led by the nose in every facet of your life. the avoidance of all conflict and willful ignorance of humanity's need for it are textbook examples of modern liberalism's demand that our humanity be subverted for the needs of efficiency. the idea of giving the vast majority of one's earnings to the state and silencing the opposition by sending it to some laundry gulag is another dead giveaway, directly out of the statist's playbook, and the whole hopey-changey, lollipops and ice cream theme should have told me how honest you were actually being. i apologize for not taking your post more seriously and so drastically underestimating the inanity of today's liberal mind.

lollipops and laundry gulags?

learn to read, you inbred, hillbilly, three tooth having redneck.

lollipops were never mentioned. but if you want them to be there to satisfy you ayn rand wet dreams, so be it.

LOLLIPOPS FOR ALL!

 

[Johnnyorganic]

Since the New Deal, Republicans have been on the wrong side of every issue of concern to ordinary Americans; Social Security, the war in Vietnam, Iraq,equal rights, civil liberties, church- state separation, consumer issues, public education, reproductive freedom, national health care, labor issues, gun policy, campaign-finance reform, the environment and tax fairness. No political party could remain so consistently wrong by accident.

The only rational conclusion is that, despite their cynical "family values" propaganda, the Republican Party is a criminal conspiracy to betray the interests of the American people in favor of plutocratic and corporate interests, and absolutist religious groups.

"Spite voting is mostly a white male phenomenon, which is why a majority of white males vote Republican. It comes from a toxic mix of thwarted expectations, cowardice, shame, and a particular strain of anomie that is unique to the white American male experience."

Social Security: If you mean to say that by supporting that particular Ponzi scheme, Republicans have been on the wrong side; I agree.

The Viet Nam War: You are aware that a Democrat started and escalated that war and a Republican ended it, right?

Iraq: Democrats voted to go to war in Iraq, too. Does your abhorrence of war extend to Libya, too? At least Bush asked Congress for authority to go to Iraq.

Equal Rights: The Republicans championed this in the 50's. It was the Democrats who opposed it.

Civil Liberties: I suppose the Patriot Act counts. But did not the Messiah sign an extension to it, then another? Face it, the Donks don't have a leg to stand on.

Church-State Separation: Is there an established religion I have not heard about?

Consumer Issues: The D's don't have a leg to stand on here either. Taxes and regulations make everything more expensive. That's not good for consumers.

Public Education: If, like Social Security, you mean the Republicans have been on the wrong side by supporting Public Education; once again, you would be correct.

Reproductive Freedom: Women are absolutely free to choose to kill their unborn children.

National Health Care: It is unconstitutional.

Gun Policy: The Second Amendment says they are on the right side.

Campaign-Finance: The First Amendment says they are on the right side.

The Environment: If the Republicans eliminate the E.P.A., you may revisit that point.

Tax Fairness: When the bottom 47% start paying income taxes, we might approach some level of fairness to the tax structure.

 

[redivider]

Social Security: If you mean to say that by supporting that particular Ponzi scheme, Republicans have been on the wrong side; I agree.

The Viet Nam war: You are aware that a Democrat started and escalated that war and a Republican ended it, right? the same republican who ordered unauthorized military action in other countries without telling the nation??

Iraq: Democrats voted to go to war in Iraq, too. Does your abhorrence of war extend to Libya, too? At least Bush asked Congress for authority to go to Iraq. democrats were told there were WMD's in iraq. it wasn't true.

Equal Rights: The Republicans championed this in the 50's. It was the Democrats who opposed it.
you should do a little more research.
Civil Liberties: I suppose the Patriot Act counts. But did not the Messiah sign and extension to it, then another? Face it, the Donks don't have a leg to stand on.

Church-State Separation: Is there an established religion I have not heard about?

Consumer Issues: The D's don't have a leg to stand on here either. Taxes and regulations make everything more expensive. That's not good for consumers. lol. they also ensure that asbestos isn't part of the premium package in homes... lol..

Public Education: If, like Social Security, you mean the Republicans have been on the wrong side by supporting Public Education; once again, you would be correct. american public education has been hurt by continuous budget cuts leaving behind a system where everybody must watch out b/c they could be the next pink slip. we should have a public education system with enough money to spare and enough teachers to go around.

Reproductive Freedom: Women are absolutely free to choose to kill their unborn children. not if the republican establishment can help it. republicans have passed more legislation reducing abortion rights than legislation creating jobs in the last 12 months. OUCH!!

National Health Care: It is unconstitutional. no it is not. look at the case law.

Gun Policy: The Second Amendment says they are on the right side. gun policy in the US is ajoke. we don't need more guns on this planet.

Campaign-Finance: The First Amendment says they are on the right side. for more than 40 years the supreme court thought otherwise. now the conservative supreme court basically said that money should dictate politics. not the people. when you consider that the majority of wealth in this country is controlled by less than 10% of the population it should be no surprise our leaders have to resort to 'debt ceiling' theatrics for political ammo. they are clearly on the corporation's side. we can thank republicans.

The Environment: If the Republicans eliminate the E.P.A., you may revisit that point. republican's are working to defund the EPA, while it doesn't eliminate it, it restricts the efficiency with which it can perform its duties.

Tax Fairness: When the bottom 47% start paying income taxes, we might approach some fairness to the tax structure. when the top 4% stop controlling 90%+ of this nation's wealth, there will be some fairness to overall social structure. until then, a progressive tax structure is here to stay.

there you go..........

 

[undertheice]

LOLLIPOPS FOR ALL!

now you've got it, the cycle is complete. another perfect example of useless liberal giveaways by that oh so compassionate government you are so eager to embrace. i don't suppose any of you care who it is that pays for it all or of what use these entitlements actually are, as long as self-described victims are the recipients.

 

[Johnnyorganic]

Johnnyorganic is absolutely correct; all the time.

There YOU go.

One good quote alteration deserves another.

 

[UncleBuck]

now you've got it, the cycle is complete. another perfect example of useless liberal giveaways by that oh so compassionate government you are so eager to embrace. i don't suppose any of you care who it is that pays for it all or of what use these entitlements actually are, as long as self-described victims are the recipients.

stick a lollipop up your ass.

the lollipops are derived from magical libertarian pixie dust, you lily-livered cunt.