True HP Aero For 2011

[Trichy Bastard]

Hi guys- it's 2011 and there is alot of good info out there on true High Pressure Aeroponics by now. There is still alot of "aeronneous" info out there too. I have been on quite a forum hopping adventure the last few months, and feel I have sifted through and extracted enough good info to create my system and document it here.
Why have I chose this path? Well for one- I like to be on the cutting edge of technology and have the best of the best- the latest science has to offer. I like to build and tinker with things- especially if the result is better than average, or offers some other sort of benefits. True HP Aero offers the benefits of faster growth than any other method with apparently tighter internodular lengths. A whole gamut of issues can be circumnavigated in regards to nutes. This system is so efficient, such small amounts of nutes can be used that it can all be set to drain to waste "DTW" and still save money on the amount of nutes you use. Yes- no recycling and tinkering with PH or EC levels. Just mix, spray, and mix again when it runs out. Usually there is no need to chill either, as the evaporative process keeps temps in line.

Most people think that if you have some roots hanging in the air and soak them with a sprinkler of nutes supplied by a "gph" pond pump that they are using "aeroponics". I think this is just a fancy way of old fashioned NFT hydroponics- and not at all the meaning of true HPA (High Pressure Aeroponics). The term is perpetuated and sold through companies pushing their false aero systems under the name of aeroponics however,- because it sounds cool and helps them sell stuff. These systems undoubtedly do grow well, but they do not have any of the benefits of HPA over traditional hydro techniques. HPA involves a little different setup, gonna be a little more expensive- but not much like you would think. After the system is set up though, the savings will begin to offset the initial money spent- not to mention the more efficient growth and yields.

I think through this adventure I am about to embark on- I will be able to demonstrate that aero is not much more to setup, and will be a win win situation.
First off- I have to give the story of how I got to this point. I started off listening to the hype on "ultrasonic fog". I thought I was being smart- circumnavigating all of the traditional aero equiptment for a single fogging setup from a guy named Jesse James referred to as "The Fogfather" . The system was called a Dominaero from Fogponics.com and is undoubtedly a good cloning chamber- but that's where it stops. In aeroponics- the best benefits are from the smaller 50 micron average target size droplets (Based on Nasa experiments years ago). Well, Ultrasonic transducers create from 1-5 micron droplets. I thought "if 50 was good, then 5 must be better!" But not so. The fogger also created enough heat to cause root rot- so I also invested in a chiller- another few hundred bucks down the drain. The size of droplets are so small that they cannot get enough fluid and nutes to the roots to sustain much growth at all- so much for that..! I was looking into if I could somehow ionize the droplets negatively and the roots positively in a fashion that they would be attracted to the roots and merge together and form larger droplets on them, but then my buzz wore off...

Credit where it's due: I had read the IC threads by Podracer, and something wasn't sitting right with me- think "Gorillas in the mist" hehe. It was cutting edge for 10 years ago and they really explored largely uncharted waters. It just didn't jive with me though, they were aged threads with lots of attitude and although I got some info from there, I didn't want to follow their footsteps for a few reasons. Then I came across a guy named Cavadge over at the gardens cure in a thread called "Forget the fogger- I'm going HP aero". It really was a good read- he was a likeable guy with excellent engineering and building skills- and he wrote in a way that made me feel excited like I was reading a good book I couldn't put down. There was obstacles he triumphed over, made friends and gained mentors along the way, and every post had good info in it. Most of what he had in that thread felt like good proper info to me, except for a few things- mainly the rootchamber sizing- but I still highly recommend anyone to read it. Quite a long read though, so make a pot of coffee. All the basic principles are there, and even some good schematics and pictures of all the necessary components and setup. That thread then lead me to Tree Farmer's thread here called "My True HP aero plug and play pods". I'd pretty much consider it the bible for DIY at home guys like you and me for correct information on the subject. Thousands of posts long, it finally ended last year when the thread was apparently closed after some drama and debate. I'm sorry to see that with so few people in this territory we couldn't all get along. We should all be a tight bunch, bound by our common interests- but apparently human nature always has other plans. In my mind, it takes a certain type of personality to actually pursue HPA, at least until commercial setups are commonplace- so those of us interested are usually techie gadget types who have a love of science, engineering and exploring newer frontiers, where gardening is more of the "canvas" that we decide to direct our creative energy to for the time being. If that's not you, and you just want to grow the best way possible, that's ok too. The information here I hope to have in this thread should outline all of the necessary knowledge and components I've picked up from others, and hopefully link some places to get it all from. I really thank People like Atomizer, Tree Farmer, Cavadge, and G-love, and a few others for really setting the initial groundwork and my inspiration for this, and I just want to have my own chapter in the story... Sure- I could just quietly build my system off the existing info out there, but I like how the other before me have shared their experience so that people like me can follow in their footsteps, and I would like to do the same.
I certainly am only running, so far, off of other people's work, and would love to be pointed out where I am wrong. I am not doing anything groudbreaking here, but just trying to share how their knowledge translates into my own experience. Anyone is welcome to this thread, and I only have one rule- constructive criticism and debate are helpful, but I want this place to be a neutral ground where negative posts and drama are left at the door. Agree to disagree if you must, but anything else would go against the basic purpose of this thread.

 

[Trichy Bastard]

Some time ago, NASA was looking into the most efficient ways to grow. They have a huge vested interest in being able to farm in space to sustain astronauts in continued space travel/interplanetary missions. They needed a system that was sterile, could perform in zero gravity conditions and required as little water and maintenance as possible. Aeroponics was the best answer they've come up with to date. The basic principle is to have roots suspended in mediumless conditions, where the proper size droplets allow them to feed as efficiently as possible, and also take in as much oxygen as possible. They concluded that a 30-80 micron mist emitted intermittently to allow short periods of feeding with short periods of oxygen uptake were ideal. There is no known way to emit only a single size droplet throughout a mist, so we are talking about average droplet size. For simplicity's sake, hereafter I will just refer to the ideal mist being 50 microns as most literature does. The idea of reproducing NASA's results sounds a little daunting, and is-somewhat- with all of the misinformation out there. But once the basic principles are understood, I don't think it requires too much more to build an aeroponic system over hydroponics- and I feel it is much easier to maintain after the initial setup. I found the answers were readily available, as long as I could seperate what I thought was the truth from the fiction. The components required have become much more commonplace and cheaper even in just the last couple of years.

BASIC COMPONENTS:

I am listing all the necessary components in this single post-(rough estimate prices for now- eventually will update with the brand I used and price I paid after I purchase) for anyone wishing to copy the design.

1) ROOTCHAMBER/POD- This is where the plants grow out of. It can be virtually any container that separates the roots from light and allows the mist to freely flow. It does not have to even be rigid- some people have found a shower curtain, or pieces of plywood sealed by epoxy resin could even work, top door freezers, 5 gallon buckets, ice chests, large diameter sewer pipe- the limit is your imagination. You may choose to have one pod for each plant, or a larger chamber containing many plants. You may choose to use an insulated chamber or not depending on the ambient temperatures. The basic needs are to block light, contain the mist, maintain a reasonable temperature, and provide the roots with enough room to spread out. A few drainage holes in the bottom to let excess condensation out (your used throwaway nutes) and a netpot or pvc step down size adaptor with a neoprene disk to hold the plant are about the only thing you need to add. I chose to use a 17 sq foot large plastic deck storage box for my initial build. I picked this because it was fairly cheap given the dimensions, and this particular one has dual walled construction that I will drill some holes in and spray low expansion polyurethane foam in the void between the walls for added insulation- since the ambient temps can get higher where I live. The rootspace you'll need for each plant varies by how much veg time you plan on. But I have seen 5 gallon buckets from Lowe's being used, and concluded bigger would have been better. A bigger chamber also allows the mist to spread out more evenly- a positive trait.

One of the most attractive features of HPA is being able to drain the nutes to waste. I think one of the harder aspects of regualar hydro, or low pressure aero to maintain, is the fact of recirculating the nutrients. As home growers, we are not afforded the ability of commercial ops to analyze the nutrients for each individual nutrient and the ability to add back just what the plant took out and automatically maintain the PH, so we can only measure the total concentration of them as a whole, and it's not very precise at all. Once spores or other nasties get in the mix- they are free to multiply and take hold of the system. All this is done away with in HPA. The roots take on a different structure- actually looking like fishbones- fuzzy and puffed out as opposed to the typical spaghetti roots that are subjected to large amounts of water. These specialized roots are very efficient, with the ability to really take out what you spray at them. Apparently the plant roots will prefer to find pooling water, and if so- the fuzzies will quickly absolve and return to a nornal root structure. So the idea it to perpetually keep them in the right environment, subject only to atomized mist-and never allowed to touch pooling nutes in the bottom. Some people have found silkscreen suspended from the bottom of the chamber installed very tightly so roots cannot climb around and under it, is a good way to keep the roots out of the bottom condensation. Overspraying the nutes to point of saturation, or any types of stress on the plant may make the fuzzies dissappear apparently. The idea is to get the fuzzies, and keep the fuzzies...

There are a few methods of producing the droplets required for HPA-
ATOMIZING- where high pressure air is used to mix with the nutes in a specialized and expensive nozzle
CENTRIFIGUL- where a high speed disc shears the water into tiny droplets
PUMPED- where a liquid pressure of generally at least 60 psi is used.
I have investigated all of the methods, and the high pressure pump style is the most simple and cheapest method- so I will be using it here. There may be some small advantage to the atomizing type, but it's a bit more complicated and expensive upfront than I am willing to deal with at this time.

PUMP: The pump needs for pressure over volume is a difference between HPA and other methods. The amount of fluid your pump pushes (GPH) becomes less important to the pressure it pumps it at (PSI). Although sizing the volume output will have some effect on your setup, it only has to do with how long the pump will be on for in it's cycle to fill the accumulator. The higher pressure the fluid pushes through the nozzles at, the smaller the droplets of water will be. 50 micron droplets are the target size, and most low volume nozzles generally need at least 80 psi to achieve this size. Diaphram pumps are the least expensive and most readily available type of pump to create these pressures. They are commonly used on carpet steam cleaners among other things. There are also 2 styles of high pressure diaphram pumps:

Demand Pump: this pump type has a built in pressure switch and automatically comes on when it senses demand, or a drop in pressure initiated by the opening of a solenoid or valve. There will be a preset pressure level that the switch turns the pump on (cut in pressure) and a preset pressure level it switches back off at. (cut out pressure). Most nozzles we are looking at for this seem to produce the 50 micron droplet size between 80psi-100psi.

Bypass pump: this pump is just always on when an electric current is applied to it's terminals. It has an internal fluid bypass that routes the excess flow of water to recirculate within the pump beyond the psi rating it is set for. Apparently this bypassing can cause the fluids to warm, so allowing the pump to run for long periods in bypass is not ideal.

It seems that a Demand pump is the better bet, but I've heard the pressure switches included with most of them are not the greatest quality, and offer poor control- so the ideal situation is to get a demand pump, but also purchase a high quality pressure switch to use independently of the pump. Perhaps you could find a pump that does not bypass or have an included pressure switch, which would save you a few bucks, but I have yet to find one. A reasonable demand pump with a pressure switch rated for 100 psi can be had for $100-200 usd.

ACCUMULATOR TANK: This is a pressure vessel meant to store energy in the form of compressed air with fluid. It holds air which will compress when the fluids are pumped in since water does not really compress in itself. The idea is that the pump pressurizes the accumulator, filling it with the nutes, until the desired psi is achieved by the pump and it shuts off. A solenoid is located down line at the mist nozzles that can open and close, initiating the misting cycles. Most people try to get by using a pump without an accumulator, and it yields poor results. I have wasted alot of time trying to figure out how to exclude the accumulator, but there is no known way to get the proper results without one. HPA is all about control. As discussed earlier, the nozzles wil output various micron mist size under different pressures. There is a ramping up and down of the pump pressure as it starts and stops, during which lower pressures are affecting the nozzle's spray. The mist cycles on HPA are generally fractions of a second to 2 seconds per cycle, the pump spends a portion that much time just getting to pressure, causing undesirable large drops spitting out of the nozzles which will cause wet roots, and undermine the benefits were trying for here in HPA. It's like a shooting competition where you get infractions for every shot outside the bullseye, with an accumulator you have a sniper rifle with a scope, without the accumulator you're shooting with a shotgun. Sure, you hit the bullseye with the shotgun for 10 points, but you also lost 10 points for all the droplets hitting outside the bullseye. Even if the proper 50 micron mists are created during part of the cycle, the larger droplets will land on top of them and wet them all together as if it never happened. A good accumulator will have a bladder that can be initially charged with air that will compress and exert pressure upon the liquid you pump in, and force it out under such pressure when the solenoids open. You'll want to pressurize the bladder with air at 2psi less than the minimum pressure you plan to run in your system. Tanks often come precharged to 40 psi or so, and more air will have to be added before connecting them to the system- using an accurate digital air gauge preferably. If using a pressure cut in switch set to 80psi, then the idea is to set the accumular air charge to 78psi. The interior will be coated with a plastic coating to resist the nutes from rusting it out. Most are only rated for 80-100 psi max- but I've stumbled upon a cheap place that has them rated for 150 psi which is better, even higher levels are great, as long as the pump can match them, but they tend to get more expensive. The larger volume the accumulator can hold, the longer you can go without the pump even coming on. If you size your accumulator correctly, you can go days or a week without the pump even needing to come on. Some people use a large accumulator tank along with a manual hydraulic pump. They only have to hand pump once a week for a few minutes and have the timers/solenoids on 12v battery... Off the grid and reliable no matter what the electric company is doing. A 5 gallon accumulator rated to 150 psi can be had for $60 usd or so- 34 gallon only $220 or so...

TIMER: If control is the most critical aspect, then we can't skimp here. Luckily there are some good timers reported that will have adjustable cycles with a resolution of 1/10 of a second. They only cost about $80 usd or so- I'm not going to even think of anything less. I saw a nice digital 120v timer with resolution of 1 second, but it cost more and people reported it was not accurate at the 1 second level... Plus the first timer mentioned comes available in many voltages- from 12dc to 220ac. The misting cycles I see most people use are around 2 seconds on for every 2-4 minutes off. Apparently the timings will change with growth stages of the plant and ambient temps, so being able to finely control to tenths of a second sounds nice.

SOLENOID: This is simply an electrically actuated liquid flow on/off valve, that instantly opens/closes to control the flow to the nozzles from a signal sent from the timer. They come in all sorts of voltages and pipe diameters depending on what you are running. I like the idea of running everything, including the pump and timer at 12v DC, so a deep cycle battery can be connected with a trickle charger. This way if the power fails, the plants won't die- the system can operate for days without external power. In aero everything happens pretty fast apparently, and the roots can dry out fairly quickly if not supplied with mist. I've read it is best to have a solenoid just before each nozzle if possible. One solenoid could control the flow for the whole system, but once again, it's about control. The longer the run of tube between the solenoid and all the mister nozzles, the more the tube can expand and contract, causing pressure variations. It seems solenoids can be found for $15 usd if you get lucky. There are so many sizes and variations, but ideally I am looking for a 1/4" John guest type fitting 12v DC normally closed version. This type is ideal for my setup, but I can't find them yet and they are probably more expensive with the JG fittings.

HIGH PRESSURE LINES: For anything pressurized after the accumulator, the best bet seems to be John Guest tubing (PEX) 1/4" and using all John Guest fittings. It is simple to slide in the tubing and lock into the fittings, and can also come back apart and together again without cutting the lines. I've seen some people using pvc, but it doesn't make sense to me as the pvc leaves too much volume to expand and will cause the issues we're trying to avoid with pressure variations. The tubing is cheap 15c-30c/foot, but each T or other fitting are around a few dollars or so- apparently they can really add up- but everyone swears by them and they make the most sense.

NOZZLES: There are alot of different manufacturers of low flow, high pressure nozzles rated for 50ish micron mist. Apparently alot of manufacturers don't really have information to support the claims of the actual droplet size their nozzles emit, but the forums seem to agree on a few different brands as being good. I am going to run Biocontrols plastic impingement style nozzles. They are around $10 usd each, and apparently they are good, but around 1 out of 10 doesn't spray correctly... Other sources sell nozzles for only $2-3, but I'd rather not skimp here after doing everything else right.

Well, that is the major components. As you see, it is not unfathomably expensive, or complex. There are a few other components that would be important, but not a necessity:
A pressure gauge to tell you the psi of the system.- $15usd
A high quality pressure switch rated for 80psi cut in and 100 psi cut out- $70 usd
A pressure regulator to keep the pressure exact despite the pressure the accumulator is at depending on how much it's been drained $30 usd. -Remember- it's all about control, and if the pressure is varying over time, the mist will too.
A pressure relief valve- Very important if not manually pumping- incase the pressure switch fails and the pump keeps running- the accumulator could reach a bursting pressure and blow up like a bomb! $20 usd- GET ONE AND INSTALL IT IN THE PROPER LOCATION!!!
An inline filter- 60 microns or smaller. $30usd. Actually I have been steered to a 1 micron filter bag that I can just pour the nutes through as I add them to the reservoir, they are only a few dollars and can't ever clog or leak- they're even machine washable...

Thats pretty much it... I aim to build a 6 site setup and it looks like it will cost 5-600 bucks- but adding a larger root chamber for more plants would be minimally more expensive as the rest of the system is expandable and already able to service many more sites by just adding more spray nozzles and solenoids. In the days and weeks to come, I will write about how to put it all together, and take some pics of the setup... All this is just extracted and concentrated from what I judged to be the best advice currently circulating in the forums in thousands of posts...

I'd also like to add that copper components, or even brass, as it contains copper are a no-no... Copper leaches out into the nutes and becomes toxic to the plants. it does seem that it will be hard to completely avoid, but I will try to source all components that are copper free. Stainless steel is fine, but components made of it tend to be pricey. Hopefully most of what we need here comes in plastic versions.

 

[tpsmc]

Could you list the timer you use? I was burned by a CAP art-dne and I dont want to shell out the money on something that is going to kill my crop.

 

[Mike Young]

Yeah man, that's the problem. People aren't that interested even when you spell it out in great detail like you did, and a great job you did btw. I think there haven't been enough builds for people to access without reading through 100+ pages of conversation. I've read through all the ones you mentioned, but not to entirety.

It's a good idea to condense materials needed/build, so the info is easily accessed. I'd be lying if I said the thought of manufacured HPA units selling for a couple hundred bucks, didn't make me a little sad though. They'd probably be shit, and give HPA an even worse name.

How many grow journals have followed a HPA grow from start to finish? Being that I've not had one myself yet, beg the question... Are the results so phenomemal that nobody wants to talk? I sure as fuck hope so! You'll know when I mysteriously disappear from cyber-existance, lol.

 

[Trichy Bastard]

Could you list the timer you use? I was burned by a CAP art-dne and I dont want to shell out the money on something that is going to kill my crop.

Yeah tpsmc, I have read all too often that those art-dne suck. I looked into one of those digital DRT-1 timers, but the resolution is only 1 second, and too many reports of it not being accurate at that 1 second level at all- too bad as I liked the "digital" look. This 422 flip flop timer seems to be what everyone agrees is the best without being too expensive. It can go down to 1/10 of a second and is available in a number of ac and dc voltages. You'll need the octal base it plugs into- but its only $8 or so extra... And I guess an electrical box to mount it into... Apparently these last for the long haul... http://www.iseincstore.com/422_Timer.aspx?gclid=CNqN--m1pakCFQM6gwodVCMhuA

 

[Trichy Bastard]

Yeah man, that's the problem. People aren't that interested even when you spell it out in great detail like you did, and a great job you did btw. I think there haven't been enough builds for people to access without reading through 100+ pages of conversation. I've read through all the ones you mentioned, but not to entirety.

It's a good idea to condense materials needed/build, so the info is easily accessed. I'd be lying if I said the thought of manufacured HPA units selling for a couple hundred bucks, didn't make me a little sad though. They'd probably be shit, and give HPA an even worse name.

How many grow journals have followed a HPA grow from start to finish? Being that I've not had one myself yet, beg the question... Are the results so phenomemal that nobody wants to talk? I sure as fuck hope so! You'll know when I mysteriously disappear from cyber-existance, lol.

Thanks Mike, yeah- that was the issue I had- I read all those thousands of posts, and when I was done I couldn't even re-find half of the stuff in them- so this post is to serve me as well as my "shopping list" Also I thought if I gave a detailed preface to the thread on just exactly what we meant by "true hp aero" we wouldn't have some guy in here talking about how much he loves his aero unit- spraying 24/7 and proud he was up to 2600 ppm- lol...

I think you're right man... It must be once you get the system dialed in, and try the results- you get pulled into another dimension, unable to ever tell anyone in the simple world how it went...
How is your leaf bag pod setup going? I liked that idea and almost went the same route, but I decided i might need a bit more insulation here in the sun...

 

[FatDaddyG]

I'm interested to see how this goes... I've been running a DWC\Fog setup for about a year with decent results but the res changes are a total drag. I've definitely lost some yield to extended weekends and vacation time away from the garden. I have returned home to find PH in the 3s with 1800 PPM and leaves dropping like mad. I love to tinker with this stuff but of course, I'm still a stoner so the less work I have to do the better. In other words, "Laziness breeds efficiency" so let's crank this fucker up and see just how lazy I can get. Links to parts retailers would be very helpful.

www.fatdaddyg.com

 

[Trichy Bastard]

I'm interested to see how this goes... I've been running a DWC\Fog setup for about a year with decent results but the res changes are a total drag. I've definitely lost some yield to extended weekends and vacation time away from the garden. I have returned home to find PH in the 3s with 1800 PPM and leaves dropping like mad. I love to tinker with this stuff but of course, I'm still a stoner so the less work I have to do the better. In other words, "Laziness breeds efficiency" so let's crank this fucker up and see just how lazy I can get. Links to parts retailers would be very helpful.

www.fatdaddyg.com

I know what you mean man. It would seem this method requires alot of up front work, and the back end should be alot easier in return. I recommend reading a very lengthy thread by tree farmer here- "my true hp areo plug n play pods". This is just my comprehended summary of all the basic system design. I'll try to post some links as I go. But I have a feeling if your not up to reading alot for now, you probably are not up for the challenge ahead. Just putting this together requires an understanding of what and why- it will be like entirely re-learning everything you used to know. But in the end it seems alot better, and even cheaper over time. For me it's about the journey just as much as the destination in this case, but if your only interested in final throughput, you might end up in frustration.

 

[Trichy Bastard]

My biggest holdup in obtaining parts for my system is actually the small plumbing parts. After deciding on a rootchamber, the pump and accumulator are fairly easy as there are only so many to choose from. In the plumbing supplies there is alot to take into account. I am trying to avoid copper and brass (which contains copper) as it is toxic to the plants. I'd like to chose components that all have the same thread and tubing size- as I prefer the cleaner design of less adaptors. The pump and accumulator I've chosen are both 3/4" npt threads, so I suppose all the components I get will be in this size and i will go down to 1/4 John Guest tubing from the pressure regulator to the solenoids and on to the nozzles. There are so many brands and styles of pressure release valves, pressure regulators, and pressure switches and huge variations in pricing. On top of it all- it is harder to find components that will be compatible with 100+psi as most products are designed for home plumbing pressures around 35-75 psi. Is there anyone subbed that might have some links to solutions for components they have used and would recommend? Once I figure out my list, I will post it for anyone's benefit after myself.

 

[PetFlora]

Subbed. Once you get it all up and running, school begins by studying your root development. I have learned the hard way to check mine ~ 5Xs day.

There is no substitute for having a few complete grows to see problems looming and correct them. The excitement comes once you get a visual feel for how they look when healthy and happy, and you see how quickly they respond. It only takes a day or two to notice when they are not. The tops may look fine as they have stored energy for a few days. When they droop, it's usually after several days of the roots not getting what they need. hth

 

[Trichy Bastard]

Thanks Petflora... I will keep this all in mind. I have chose a location for my root chamber that is easy to check on a normal basis for this very reason. I assume once things are on autopilot it will be a different story, but in the beginning I want to be there learning every second of the way. I fully agree with your statement of growing becoming addictive on your sig...

I just read another treefarmer thread from another forum where he was using bio-balls as medium. Was wondering if I should consider this in lieu of hydroton? Originally I was considering no medium, but Atomizer reminded me that the plants would need some anchorage in the wind, an early moisture buffer, etc. I have never even used hydroton before, I understand it needs to be rinsed well, but would I also use a small rockwool cube in the hydroton for the sprout? Perhaps someday I will do clones, but I'm going to be just starting out this first time from seed and am trying to imagine the best way to get things started off.

 

[skunkd0c]

i find this subject pretty interesting , especially , the "specialized roots" phenomena you mention,

although i have noticed these fluffy hairy roots outside aeroponic setups,

when the humidity is very high but the root zone is dry this can happen when i take cuttings, i find 1 or 2 of the rockwool blocks have dried out, but because of the high humidity of the propagator they burst out with these bleach white fluffy hairy roots that seem to grow very fast, compared to the string like roots from the other cuttings ..

i have also noticed this in my NFT tanks the portion of the roots that sits outside of the solution is almost completely dry, the black white plastic i cover the top plate / roots with creates high humidity as i can see condensation built up on the surface of the plastic, again i see these fluffy aeroponic roots

each root has tiny little hairs allover them they look fluffy and fatter than normal roots and also much whiter
i wondered if anyone had specific information as to what is happening here at the "plant biology level" when they produce these type of roots .. ive not found much information on it myself when searching

 

[PetFlora]

I use 1.5" PVC Couplers (HD/Lowes) and neoprene pucks from hydro stores to hold my plants in place. I don't need the neoprene pucks until ~ 4 nodes .

The PVC Couplers come in a variety of very similar shapes. Look for the ones with the widest mouth on the bottom, the fewest threads, and a flat lip that rests on the table top. Some are beveled, which makes balance precarious. hth

 

[Trichy Bastard]

i find this subject pretty interesting , especially , the "specialized roots" phenomena you mention,

although i have noticed these fluffy hairy roots outside aeroponic setups,

when the humidity is very high but the root zone is dry this can happen when i take cuttings, i find 1 or 2 of the rockwool blocks have dried out, but because of the high humidity of the propagator they burst out with these bleach white fluffy hairy roots that seem to grow very fast, compared to the string like roots from the other cuttings ..

i have also noticed this in my NFT tanks the portion of the roots that sits outside of the solution is almost completely dry, the black white plastic i cover the top plate / roots with creates high humidity as i can see condensation built up on the surface of the plastic, again i see these fluffy aeroponic roots

each root has tiny little hairs allover them they look fluffy and fatter than normal roots and also much whiter
i wondered if anyone had specific information as to what is happening here at the "plant biology level" when they produce these type of roots .. ive not found much information on it myself when searching

Skunk- I would consider it less mythical, and more legendary . It is my understanding that the roots try to make most efficient use of the environment (if it's conducive). Each little hair is actually one big single root cell that only lives for a day or 2 and are constantly replaced. Roots only feed from the tip, but since there are hundreds of tips in a tiny sample area when the hairs develop, you can figure out the obvious advantages from there... This is pretty much the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow for me, and I've yet to see them in real life for myself, also I'm still learning, so anyone correct me if my understanding was wrong. But I think a picture is worth a 1000 words in this case... http://www.thcfarmer.com/forums/f29/trees-aero-15936/
If you're like me, that was all you needed to see and you'll not be able to stop till you have it for yourself.. lol

 

[Trichy Bastard]

I use 1.5" PVC Couplers (HD/Lowes) and neoprene pucks from hydro stores to hold my plants in place. I don't need the neoprene pucks until ~ 4 nodes .
They come in a variety of very similar shapes. Look for the ones with the widest mouth on the bottom and a flat lip. Some are beveled, which makes balance
precarious. hth

View attachment 1650478

Thanks PF, I am still trying to visualize how the plants stay in the pvc adaptor before you add the neoprene, but Atomizer tells me I should try 2" net pots with a layer of rockwool in the bottom, set the seed on one layer of the cubes, and then lightly fill over it to the top with more rockwool chunks without packing down. Apparently the roots will fill in the spaces and lock it all together- sounds pretty good to me. I'll probably put an inch of hydroton over the top once the sprouts are 6" tall or so- but just for aesthetics. Cubed rockwool looks like fiberglass insulation to me- and I'm a perfectionist... I'm really excited- I just ordered most of my components today. I will update the second post in this thread to reflect what I bought and where with prices in the next day or so... BTW I found a smokin deal on a 150 psi flojet pump in the most unlikely of places, they have 6 more on hand for only 75$/ea- it's a steal- so anyone interested give a shout.

 

[hammer21]

Great thread been working on the system you have told about now

 

[Trichy Bastard]

Great thread been working on the system you have told about now

Welcome aboard the aero-train hammer21. There is a few of us just getting sucked into this at the moment. I guess were the new generation of aero-heads. The components and concepts are largely unfamiliar as opposed to the normal hydro/aero setups, so feel free to ask lots of questions and definitely do your research before you buy. You could easily buy alot of costly wrong stuff that ends up in a closet or drawer collecting dust, so be sure to research and ask questions here to save yourself alot of grief. I bought the majority of my components this last week, and I believe the grand total is coming in just shy of 500 bucks. Not too bad considering I got a 150 psi pump and a 10 gallon accumulator rated for 150 psi in the mix...

 

[Mike Young]

Trichy, good score on the pump & acc. What's the model of the flojet pump? I've not seen anyone use one before, that I can recall. I somewhat have to disagree about the pile of unused parts. That's a good pile to have around. The bigger the better! I think that jby this time next year, my outdoor greenhouse will be pimpin. I never had any interest in gardening before, but am really enjoying the differnet branches this hobby has opened up to me. I'm still obsessed after about 6 months of tinkering & 3-5 months of researching prior to that. I really think that anybody who commits to building a true aero system, will never look back.

 

[Trichy Bastard]

Your right Mikey... I just have a bit of ocd and not alot of $$ to waste on anymore wrong parts and hate unusable junk lying around- my mom was a bit of a hoarder so I guess I went the other direction. But I gotta agree that when you need parts to rig something that stuff sure comes in handy for whatever project... Also agree- I figure that this has learned me quite a bit in engineering, horticulture, plumbing, physics, math, fluid dynamics, and even some psychology after seein everyone's ego ... Here's manufacturer's page on the pump: http://www.ittflowcontrol.com/special-industrial/construction/3000-series-triplex-series-high-pressure-pump.htm - I think it has slighlty better specs than both similar aquatec and sureflo comparable models. But they're all pretty much on par. I haven't seen anyone else use this brand for aero yet either, so I get to do some pioneering- hope it's not real loud or somethin, but it wouldn't be the end of the world in my case anyway. If you need to buy one, I'd send the link in a pm where I found it (hit me up), but I'm not ready to tell the world yet because there's only 6 left and I'd like to score a backup before the stock is all gone (once I test out the first one). Here's the best accumulator pricing site I found, and like I said- they're rated for 150 psi, so this is the best I could find so far... I got the 10.3 gallon ST25-V model... 100 bucks or so... http://www.pexsupply.com/THERM-X-TROL-Tanks-354000

 

[Trichy Bastard]

Well, crudd... I didn't realize until just now that a post can only be edited for a certain amount of time after it is originally posted. I had originally planned to reference a parts list with pricing and links in post #2 of this thread, but it's no longer possible. I will just wait until I have decided on all components and post them in the near future. The idea is that after someone reads the thread in the future, at least they don't have to skim all around to find the crucial parts scattered everywhere. I had this issue with all of the other threads on the subject, and I even saw Tree farmer originally complained about the same problem on UK420 site when referring to gathering info for his setup. On a positive note- I don't really need a parts list anymore because I've read so much I thoroughly understand the concept and why I would need each component- so perhaps it's not the end of the world... Ironically I am searching through Cavadge's thread this very moment looking for the proper mesh silkscreen to suspend the roots from the bottom of the rootchamber that was mentioned there- lol... I need to figure out how to tightly suspend silkscren in my bin- but it's a little more of a feat than his 5 gallon Lowe's buckets... I may cut an oversized sheet, screw wood 1x1 trim (or something less permeable) a couple inches from the bottom of my bin with the mesh sandwiched between it and the chamber walls. In case anyone reading is lost, the roots only stay fuzzy as long as they don't get soaked, and sitting in the chamber bottom with the condensation and runoff is bad for that. So the idea is to use a super fine mesh screen slighly above the bottom that allows drainage, but not the roots to slip through into the moisture. Either a silkscreen or a NFT Spreader mat is what was recommended, as normal window screen is not fine enough to keep the roots from going through. And it must be installed tightly around the edges, because once a tiny root gets under it, the root will continue to press through it like the way they push through the soil. I wonder if some fibery (not plastic) weed matting could do the trick, and maybe harbor less moisture?