Changes the Way you Think about Drainage

Beansly

RIU Bulldog
@Beansly, that was an interesting read, thank you.
Ignore the noise (sadly, not only from the ignorant).

I've seen the PWT myself, and it did worry me (but my plants did not seem to mind it).

I use tall pots wich are narrower at the bottom, I wonder how that affects the PWT. After reading this, I decided to drill a lot of tiny holes in my pots - why not, can't hurt.
I really appreciate your open-mindedness krok. To me a simple sign of intelligence is whether someone can "agree to disagree" and be civil about it.
UB, your one talk. Didn't you write a thread on the exotic technique of topping...OOOOOhhhhhh tell me more! You wanna talk about threads that are pointless...
You and me write threads like this for one reason; to fill our humongous egos.
But I think it's deeper than that. UB put his name on "topping" like he was the first one who ever thought of the idea. I assume he's upset nobody's talking about him... and his "drainage technique."

I still don't understand what causes this problem. How does water come to just sit at the bottom layer of a pot?

You're trying to compensate for excess moisture (because you overwatered) rather than just watering properly.

And frankly your soil and containers should be porous enough that once it has absorbed all it can the rest will drain out the bottom. A "perched water table" should never happen in a container with quality soil and amendments. Why do you think runoff exists?
I don't believe your really wanna know the answer to that, cause if you did, you would have read the first post which explains why. Or you would have taken the link to the original thread and read that. I think you wanna just stir the shit. Try again when you have something intelligent to contribute.

Then you done screwed up having very poor root health and root tissue bulk.

UB
Maybe,
but your a poop face.
What I'm trying to is help other's learn from my mistake.
 

kevin murphy

New Member
excellent thread beansly lad very interesting and informative....as usual...
I really appreciate your open-mindedness krok. To me a simple sign of intelligence is whether someone can "agree to disagree" and be civil about it.
UB, your one talk. Didn't you write a thread on the exotic technique of topping...OOOOOhhhhhh tell me more! You wanna talk about threads that are pointless...
You and me write threads like this for one reason; to fill our humongous egos.
But I think it's deeper than that. UB put his name on "topping" like he was the first one who ever thought of the idea. I assume he's upset nobody's talking about him... and his "drainage technique."



I don't believe your really wanna know the answer to that, cause if you did, you would have read the first post which explains why. Or you would have taken the link to the original thread and read that. I think you wanna just stir the shit. Try again when you have something intelligent to contribute.



Maybe,
but your a poop face.
What I'm trying to is help other's learn from my mistake.
 

Jerry Garcia

Well-Known Member
"There will be a naturally occurring "perched water table" (PWT) in containers when soil particulate size is under about .125 (1/8 inch).. This is water that occupies a layer of soil that is always saturated & will not drain from the portion of the pot it occupies. It can evaporate or be used by the plant, but physical forces will not allow it to drain."

Why would you want to get rid of this? Sounds to me like additional water that will allow my plant to go longer between waterings. A healthy root system SHOULD provide all the wick you need, and if you aren't overwatering your plant in the first place this will help you, especially if growing large plants in small containers.

And aren't we really just talking about water retention and saturation here...but calling it a Perched Water Table?



And tbf, this is kind of advanced for this site.
Then why are you here. Clearly you are too advanced for this site.
 

Shadeslay

Active Member
I kept running into issues with my plants using rocks on the bottom. They tended to be over watered or under watered more often.
 

Beansly

RIU Bulldog
I kept running into issues with my plants using rocks on the bottom. They tended to be over watered or under watered more often.
I think the only ones upset about my innocent thread are the ones who didn't think of taking an old idea and sticking their name on it.
Stay tune for when I reveal Beansly's ScroG technique. I invented a way of growing that maximized space and lighting all by using simple chicken wire!
:roll:
 

Jerry Garcia

Well-Known Member
I think the only ones upset about my innocent thread are the ones who didn't think of taking an old idea and sticking their name on it.
Stay tune for when I reveal Beansly's ScroG technique. I invented a way of growing that maximized space and lighting all by using simple chicken wire!
:roll:
So you are admitting to contributing nothing of value then...you just stuck your name on something you read elsewhere on the internet, claiming it will change the way we think.

Why didn't you acknowledge my comments above? Didn't feel like addressing those?

Eventually, if you don't water, the suspended water within the medium will get used or evaporated, like it's supposed to. As long as you don't overwater, this isn't a problem. Right?

Right?

I shouldn't expect a response though, as clearly I'm not smart enough or have the desire to understand the point of this thread :dunce:
 

krok

Active Member
So you are admitting to contributing nothing of value then...you just stuck your name on something you read elsewhere on the internet, claiming it will change the way we think.

Why didn't you acknowledge my comments above? Didn't feel like addressing those?

Eventually, if you don't water, the suspended water within the medium will get used or evaporated, like it's supposed to. As long as you don't overwater, this isn't a problem. Right?

Right?

I shouldn't expect a response though, as clearly I'm not smart enough or have the desire to understand the point of this thread :dunce:
Why are you making such a big deal over this? I learned something, never heard of the PWT before. That's all this thread was for me, and I don't see your point? That a healthy plant will suck the water out of the pot? That is knowlegde even the most stupid knows! Of course the PWT is not a problem per se - for a healthy plant.

When I find new information related to growing I'm happy, after all 99% of the posts on forums are useless in this regard. This post was not (for me).
Just because this post was old news to you, there is no need to be a dick.
Just because your plants have no water uptake problems, you cannot assume it applies to all growers. (No, I'm not saying it's BECAUSE OF the PWT).
Just because you don't find this information useful, a lot of people might.
 

Jerry Garcia

Well-Known Member
Why are you making such a big deal over this? I learned something, never heard of the PWT before. That's all this thread was for me, and I don't see your point? That a healthy plant will suck the water out of the pot? That is knowlegde even the most stupid knows! Of course the PWT is not a problem per se - for a healthy plant.

When I find new information related to growing I'm happy, after all 99% of the posts on forums are useless in this regard. This post was not (for me).
Just because this post was old news to you, there is no need to be a dick.
Just because your plants have no water uptake problems, you cannot assume it applies to all growers. (No, I'm not saying it's BECAUSE OF the PWT).
Just because you don't find this information useful, a lot of people might.
My point is that the PWT isn't CAUSING PROBLEMS, like Beansly seems to indicate it does. I had never heard of a PWT before this thread, so I learned something as well, but In my opinion, and it's just the opinion of a dick who apparently knows nothing at all, the PWT is beneficial to indoor container plants. Without it soil would dry out much faster--I have a Sour D plant in a 3.5 gallon pot that requires water every other day...without suspending water in the medium it would probably need water a few times a day.

Which is why I said we are really just discussing water retention and saturation, not drainage. For the vast majority of people growing in containers indoors, a wick to absorb excess water is just plain silly. Growing 101: DON'T OVERWATER--this means don't water TOO OFTEN. If you wait the appropriate time between waterings, the roots wick up all moisture...even the PWT. There is really no situation where doing anything to the PWT is necessary.

The Perched Water Table is not some mysterious layer of water that no matter what will remain in your pot, requiring additional measures to remove. A plant will use it as it does the rest of the moisture trapped within the soil matrix.

If you or anyone else is having water uptake problems, you need to re-evaluate your understanding of plant culture, because wicking off excess moisture is certainly NOT going to make the plant uptake water any faster...it will just make less water available for the uptaking.

And if your plant isn't growing right indoors it is because the controlled environment you provided for it isn't acceptable--too hot, too cold, too much water, too much/little nutrients, not enough air circulation--NOT BECAUSE OF THE FUCKING PERCHED WATER TABLE.

The reason I'm being a dick about this is because people will read this thread and say "my plant is messed up because my Perched Water Table is too big, I should use a wick" which in the end doesn't help the person overcome their problems...if anything they exacerbate them.
 

xXOnyxXx

Well-Known Member
shit i dunno, i have used hydroton in the bottoms of my pots for drainage. it didn't help much at all, i found that if my roots are in good shape and healthy i don't have that wet layer "pwt" issue. i prefer to just use all soil and let my plants do the talking when it comes to what they want.

 

krok

Active Member
My point is that the PWT isn't CAUSING PROBLEMS, like Beansly seems to indicate it does. I had never heard of a PWT before this thread, so I learned something as well, but In my opinion, and it's just the opinion of a dick who apparently knows nothing at all, the PWT is beneficial to indoor container plants. Without it soil would dry out much faster--I have a Sour D plant in a 3.5 gallon pot that requires water every other day...without suspending water in the medium it would probably need water a few times a day.

Which is why I said we are really just discussing water retention and saturation, not drainage. For the vast majority of people growing in containers indoors, a wick to absorb excess water is just plain silly. Growing 101: DON'T OVERWATER--this means don't water TOO OFTEN. If you wait the appropriate time between waterings, the roots wick up all moisture...even the PWT. There is really no situation where doing anything to the PWT is necessary.

The Perched Water Table is not some mysterious layer of water that no matter what will remain in your pot, requiring additional measures to remove. A plant will use it as it does the rest of the moisture trapped within the soil matrix.

If you or anyone else is having water uptake problems, you need to re-evaluate your understanding of plant culture, because wicking off excess moisture is certainly NOT going to make the plant uptake water any faster...it will just make less water available for the uptaking.

And if your plant isn't growing right indoors it is because the controlled environment you provided for it isn't acceptable--too hot, too cold, too much water, too much/little nutrients, not enough air circulation--NOT BECAUSE OF THE FUCKING PERCHED WATER TABLE.

The reason I'm being a dick about this is because people will read this thread and say "my plant is messed up because my Perched Water Table is too big, I should use a wick" which in the end doesn't help the person overcome their problems...if anything they exacerbate them.
OK, I understand. Your discussion with Beansly went above my head, I wasn't paying attention.
I was trigger happy because this forum, in general, is getting so noisy - a lot of people seem to NEED being correct all the time - at all costs, even enjoying it when they find some statements they can attack.

I've had water uptake problems in the past (newbie mistakes), I used towels under my pots to force air/water through pot. It worked for wicking out some moisture.

These days I don't have water-uptake issues, but I'm still REALLY paranoid about drowning my roots. So this thread was useful to me.
 

delta9nxs

Active Member
these links are about media and container mechanics. the term "saturated layer" means the same as "perched water table".


http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/1000/1251.html

http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/n...g-physical.pdf

"slowness is thoroughness"
__________________
Passive Plant Killer

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=138004


i just want to add that the old saw about letting your medium dry down between waterings evolved as a means of dealing with the pwt. and using too fine of a medium.

drying concentrates salts and brings you dangerously close to xylem embolism.


you may be one of those "natural" gardeners, with a "green thumb", and grow beautiful plants using a drainage layer. you could probably grow a plant in a glass bowl with no holes in it using glass marbles as a medium. that's great!

but if you:

do away with the drainage layer

use a medium with approx 30% air porosity

deal with the perched water table by using a device to move it out of the root zone

keep your medium moist at all times. remember the assimilation of nutrients is dependent upon water

you will grow a higher yielding plant.

i just harvested a plant using these principles that yielded over 22 oz's of dry bud in a 3.5 gallon container of coco. this is with a cut i've been running for 8 years. i used to get around 10-12 zips per plant with the same cut.

hi, JJ!

delta9nxs
 

doser

Well-Known Member
ya what he said
Ive seen it..........didnt know the mechanics of how it occurred
now I do
right on bro
 

Wolverine97

Well-Known Member
these links are about media and container mechanics. the term "saturated layer" means the same as "perched water table".


http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/1000/1251.html

http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/n...g-physical.pdf

"slowness is thoroughness"
__________________
Passive Plant Killer

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=138004


i just want to add that the old saw about letting your medium dry down between waterings evolved as a means of dealing with the pwt. and using too fine of a medium.

drying concentrates salts and brings you dangerously close to xylem embolism.


you may be one of those "natural" gardeners, with a "green thumb", and grow beautiful plants using a drainage layer. you could probably grow a plant in a glass bowl with no holes in it using glass marbles as a medium. that's great!

but if you:

do away with the drainage layer

use a medium with approx 30% air porosity

deal with the perched water table by using a device to move it out of the root zone

keep your medium moist at all times. remember the assimilation of nutrients is dependent upon water

you will grow a higher yielding plant.

i just harvested a plant using these principles that yielded over 22 oz's of dry bud in a 3.5 gallon container of coco. this is with a cut i've been running for 8 years. i used to get around 10-12 zips per plant with the same cut.

hi, JJ!

delta9nxs
I'd like to see pics of this 22 oz plant grown in a 3.5 gallon container...
 

delta9nxs

Active Member
here are a few. my first time uploading pics here. i got them out of order but from left to right:

1,2,3. pics of harvested bud.
4,6,7. the plant in question
5. a different plant in veg showing the stacked 3.5 gal buckets. bottom is a reservoir and top is the grow container.

the 2 bud shots showing my arms are on different sides of the plant, about 5.5 feet apart. i weigh about 195 and wear large gloves for reference.

the system was designed to deal with the hydraulic and mechanical problems inherent in most container growing schemes.

the perched water table is moved out of the grow container and into a 1.5" tube which both drains and sub-irrigates. the top of the medium is kept at the right level of moisture by a pulsed top irrigation system. the medium is never allowed to dry. but also is never saturated.

the overall effect is that the device keeps the interface between air, water, nutrients, and roots at maximum efficiency.

this plant is the largest i've grown yet but i'm averaging over a lb per plant with sweet tooth #4.

it was grown using ro water, jack's hydroponic special and calcium nitrate at ec 1.2 or 600 ppm on a .5 meter. this is for all phases. from clone to harvest. no ph adjusters, no pk boosters, no magic potions. just the right environment and a straightforward, honest, nutrient program.

hi, beansly! thank you for reading my thread. i'll do a condensed version here soon. sorry for the hijacking but this thread needed the references. i've got many more on the same subjects from universities all over the world.
 

Attachments

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
Thought I'd look this up again. Found the link on soil container issues while searching. Gotta eat some crow on this one Beansly! (spits out feathers)

You don't have to believe the ICmag PO
It's not the ICMag POV. It was lifted from Gardenweb. A real guru by the name of Al wrote it and has hundreds of followup posts. I've been touting the merits of it at several sites having ignored it until just recently. http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/contain/msg0316064615891.html?14

Probably the most important concept is the perched water table concept. He does clarify that the wicking thingie when a pot is full of roots top to bottom.
 

delta9nxs

Active Member
at last! four months! hi, uncle ben! could you please explain what you mean by "a real guru". and this sentence, " He does clarify that the wicking thingie when a pot is full of roots top to bottom." i'm a little confused by your terminology. al tapla is one of my references in my thread but he only deals with the perched water table and media characteristics.

the passive plant killer is about much more than just controlling the perched water table. it is a coordinated device that integrates many design concepts into one unit. if you've read my complete thread you know that i don't claim invention. i did not "invent" any single design element. however i know i'm the first to put these design elements together in one device. i have provided links to research to back up all claims and statements. by the way, it grows the hell out of weed at high speed with no symptoms or displays of any deficiencies, antagonisms, or stimulations. it controls ec and ph with no changeouts. it is so totally reliable that no one, in the first 2 years since we began working on it, has ever lost a plant in one due to system failure. belts and suspenders. it is designed to grow large plants which most legal medical growers who have plant count limits must do to produce the quantities they need. but at the same time people with smaller areas have built variations to fit their spaces and are reporting success. it is designed to eliminate continuous heavy maintenance. and the stress that normally accompanies new growers. and drain to waste. experienced growers, after growing their favorite strain for a while, try it in this device and invariably make comments like, "i am stunned" at the yield increases. or, "the plant outgrew my space", or my favorite, "the fuggin' colas are huge!" it is designed to be easy to build, maintain, and operate.

i felt compelled to state all this here in view of the negative and/or somewhat derogatory remarks made earlier in the thread. i sincerely hope we have gotten past all that and can pursue knowledge with open minds.

yours truly, delta9nxs



 

delta9nxs

Active Member
Read his thread and his replies to hundreds of Gardeweb members and you'll know what I mean. Al is really good.
actually, i've read about everything i could find written by him, i may have missed something. no, it's the term "real guru" that confuses me. do you mean as opposed to an "unreal" guru or perhaps a "fake" guru. gosh, it just occurred to me that, no, that couldn't be true, scratch that!

really, since reading all the crap filled books by supposed "gurus", i don't consider anyone in the cannabis growing community to be a "guru". guru has such mystical connotations and i'm one of those believers in science. there are no magic potions or green thumbs. just people who know something about plants and people who don't.

well, i guess i'll do a grow here in a little while. i'm trying to spread the word about this medical "love machine". maybe you can come by and share your opinions? there is still much to accomplish. we learn everyday.

later, d9
 

Afka

Active Member
Perched water table is only relevant to excessively capillary media, media lacking sufficient aeration, or very young plants with little root mass.

Otherwise, it's rather irrelevant. It's just more water for an established plant to take up, and it's not preventing any gas exchanges.
 
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