Dr Greenthumbs G13

consumer reports

Well-Known Member
Greenthumb or I mean Stonedmeathead/Bajafox/OG Man/Farmboi/DD I am calling you out! You are very sly with your reverse spamming on this thread. Go away already! Almost 100 pgs of spam on this merry go round. Spend some money and do some real advertizing with your G13 money already you cheap prick! YOUR NOT FOOLING ANYONE ANYMORE FIGHTING WITH YOURSELF ON THIS WORTHLESS THREAD!
 

stonedmetalhead1

Well-Known Member
Greenthumb or I mean Stonedmeathead/Bajafox/OG Man/Farmboi/DD I am calling you out! You are very sly with your reverse spamming on this thread. Go away already! Almost 100 pgs of spam on this merry go round. Spend some money and do some real advertizing with your G13 money already you cheap prick! YOUR NOT FOOLING ANYONE ANYMORE FIGHTING WITH YOURSELF ON THIS WORTHLESS THREAD!
lol, guy with 50 posts.

When I get trolled by people with no resources or facts you better believe I'll rebuttal with facts that prove them wrong.
 

chongsbuddy

New Member
it does not matter if he is lying now or not,he has lied before and once a liar always a liar in the public eye!the guy is constantly getting bad reviews and good ones too,but who do you believe?i tend to stay away from these seedbanks because way more often than not when they are constantly being put on a hotplate there is a good reason for it.all i know is that you would never hear these kind of comments about mr nice seedbank.and ogman,why do you constantly get pulled into these debates?if his gear is as good as you say than what do you care if someone else does not like it.i see you at a lot of forums and you are always talking about the doc and no one else.thats kind of fishy on its own.tons of peeps are convinced that you are the doc himself,i believe it to be so,why else would you get so riled up every time someone flames dr greenthumb,because you take it personally?i would only take it personally if it was a close friend or family member,maybe he is your buddy,i dont know,but there are justt way too many bad posts on dr greenthumb and thats enought for me to stick with seedbanks i know.im pretty sure nothing dr greenthumb has hold a candle to shantis nevilles haze.plus i have emailed him to ask about strains and have never got one solid answer,he always kind of walked around my questions and if i kept asking he would get mad and not return my emails.especialy the iranian auto,first he said it was a true auto and then he said it was not.i just plain dont trust the dude.
 

Angry Pollock

Well-Known Member
it does not matter if he is lying now or not,he has lied before and once a liar always a liar in the public eye!the guy is constantly getting bad reviews and good ones too,but who do you believe?i tend to stay away from these seedbanks because way more often than not when they are constantly being put on a hotplate there is a good reason for it.all i know is that you would never hear these kind of comments about mr nice seedbank.and ogman,why do you constantly get pulled into these debates?if his gear is as good as you say than what do you care if someone else does not like it.i see you at a lot of forums and you are always talking about the doc and no one else.thats kind of fishy on its own.tons of peeps are convinced that you are the doc himself,i believe it to be so,why else would you get so riled up every time someone flames dr greenthumb,because you take it personally?i would only take it personally if it was a close friend or family member,maybe he is your buddy,i dont know,but there are justt way too many bad posts on dr greenthumb and thats enought for me to stick with seedbanks i know.im pretty sure nothing dr greenthumb has hold a candle to shantis nevilles haze.plus i have emailed him to ask about strains and have never got one solid answer,he always kind of walked around my questions and if i kept asking he would get mad and not return my emails.especialy the iranian auto,first he said it was a true auto and then he said it was not.i just plain dont trust the dude.

kiss-ass..................................
 

bajafox

Well-Known Member
Greenthumb or I mean Stonedmeathead/Bajafox/OG Man/Farmboi/DD I am calling you out! You are very sly with your reverse spamming on this thread. Go away already! Almost 100 pgs of spam on this merry go round. Spend some money and do some real advertizing with your G13 money already you cheap prick! YOUR NOT FOOLING ANYONE ANYMORE FIGHTING WITH YOURSELF ON THIS WORTHLESS THREAD!
You think I am Greenthumb?



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Sorry, just had to get that out of my system....
 

Brick Top

New Member
So what you're saying is if you advertize in High Times you can perpertrate any lie you want to and High Times is OK with that? That is the most cynical thing I have ever heard and you disrespect all the good work done by High Times and insult all their readers too.

That is one of the most naive statements I have ever read. You way underestimate the power of the almighty advertising dollar and way overestimate the integrity of any publication.

Either you have not walked this planet for many years or if you did, you did it with both rose colored glasses and blinders on and earplugs too.
 

Brick Top

New Member
1. Greenthumb has been in business for over 20 years.


The mafia has been in business longer. Does that make the mafia reputable?


2. Has been top rated at the Seedbankupdates for a decade or two.
Which; "Seedbankupdates" are you talking about and how do you get possibly as long as two decades of top ratings? Greenman's seedbank update is the longest running seedbank ratings site online and it's now in it's 13th or 14th year. Neither add up to two decades. Right now Dr. Ripoff has a 4 star rating there .. which is not the highest rated of all the sites listed and it is not the highest rating that can be given. Also he was down to a 3 1/2 star rating for over a year and only a few months or so back made it back up to a 4 star rating ... that still leaves him rated lower than the sites with 4 1/2 star ratings. So how is your claim that Dr. Ripoff; "has been top rated at seedbankupdates for a decade or two accurate? No ratings site has been active for two decades and the longest running ratings site, Greenman's, has not continually had Dr. Ripoff as the highest rated place to buy from and he currently does not have Dr. Ripoff rated as the highest place to buy from.

So what seedbankupdate site are you claiming has rated Dr. Ripoff the highest for a decade or two?

Greetings growers this is for medical marijuana users and those who can use the information legally. Seedbank ratings are farther down and the links to growing information are near the end. The seedbank update has now racked up over 13 continuous years of service to growers and seed buyers. Many people count on it to avoid the many many ripoffs who are out there. It would not be possible without you, the buyer who sends in your report.
The post office in the USA often gets funny about delivering letters. People many times use a fake name to get orders sent to them. The trouble is that the letter carrier may not deliver it if they do not recognize the name. Before you send your order, send a letter to yourself using the name and see if it arrives. Then make your order. Ask the company first if they send to your country. If no reply, do not order.
If you have bought from a seedbank send in your report so that other people will know how good or bad it was. No seeds are sold from this site. This center is only for information. You may also send in a grow report on a variety you grew out.
To reach me write to [email protected] remove the ZZZ. Please do not write me at 37.com, only at the email address listed without the ZZZ.
This group I've heard good things about. Those with four stars or more are the most reliable. They will send to most countries. I've tried to list those that ship worldwide. Those with a relatively low rating may just be new to the ratings. It takes a while to earn a good rating. A 1/2 means they are half way to the next star.
I keep getting bad reports on bc bud depot. Non delivery or poor quality seeds if they do arrive.



Attitude 4 star 1/2 (F****1/2)
Bluenose 3 star (***) (2)
Dr. Greenthumbs 4 star (F****) (1,2,3)
Hemp Depot 4 star and 1/2 (F****1/2) (1,2,4,)
Hemcy 4 and 1/2 star (F****1/2) (1,4)
Highland 2 star and 1/2 (**1/2)
Joey Weed 4 star and a half (F****1/2) (1,2)
Klozit King 3 star and 1/2 (***1/2) (1,2)
Natural Mystic 3 star and 1/2 (***1/2)
Peakseeds BC 4 star and 1/2 (****1/2)F
Seedboutique 3 stars and 1/2 (F***1/2) (1)
Seedbank.co.uk 2 star and 1/2 (**1/2)
Tambu 3 star (S***) (1,3)

http://www.seedbankupdate.com/su.html
3. Has been nominated for Top Ten Strains of the Year at High Times (Cindy 99)

He pays them advertising dollars and regardless of how much you would love to believe that does not and will not in any way influence a publication, it will and it does.


4. Has been nominated for the Seedbank Hall of Fame at High Times

He pays them advertising dollars and regardless of how much you would love to believe that does not and will not in any way influence a publication, it will and it does.

5. Has the endorsement of Jim Ortega (G13)
WOW .. one guy that may or may not be all that honest or have the strain claimed and for all anyone knows is collecting payments for his alleged; "endorsement."


6. Tens of thousands of happy customers worldwide
How do you know? Is his site like McDonalds and has a sign saying how many people have been served? Where is your proof?

Also what about all those who have been totally dissatisfied by at least some of Dr. Ripoff's gear? Doesn't what they say carry some weight? You seem to claim to know some number range of satisfied customers, but what about the number range of dissatisfied customers?



7. Was the first to make S1 seeds of OG Kush, Bubba Kush, Chemdawg, Cindy 99, Trainwreck, East Coast Sour Diesel, Cheese and is the creator of Iranian Autoflower, Endless Sky, 747, Columbia Skies and others.
So much of his 'claim to fame' comes from making S1s of other people's work. WOW, I'm impressed by that!

While I do admit that winning Cups is not all that many people believe it is, why is it that if you look through the list of High Times Cannabis Cup winners and and the Spannabis Cup winners and the Highlife Cannabis Cup winners and the IC 420 Growers Cup winners you will NOT find Dr. Greenthumb mentioned as having won anything in any of them? Even since Shantibaba and Nevil got fed up with Arjan and sold out took a hike a hack business like Green House Seeds has won multiple times. Barney's Farm has won multiple times. BC Bud Depot has won, KC Brains has won, not to mention all the truly skilled high quality breeders that have won .... but NOT Dr. Ripoff. He hasn't even won one of the lesser Cup competitions that are almost a joke to win.

Why is that? If he is so spectacular then why is his name not among all the names of all the winners of the various different competitions? But what the heck ... Jim Ortega; "endorses him" so that means a whole lot more in the long run, doesn't it?
 

bajafox

Well-Known Member
Greenthumb or I mean Stonedmeathead/Bajafox/OG Man/Farmboi/DD I am calling you out! You are very sly with your reverse spamming on this thread. Go away already! Almost 100 pgs of spam on this merry go round. Spend some money and do some real advertizing with your G13 money already you cheap prick! YOUR NOT FOOLING ANYONE ANYMORE FIGHTING WITH YOURSELF ON THIS WORTHLESS THREAD!
You think I am Greenthumb?



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Sorry, just had to get that out of my system....
Wait let me rephrase that.

Yes, I am Dr. Greenthumb and effectve immediately I hear-by admit that my G13 is indeed fake. Sorry I ripped you all off, please return your seeds for a refund.

Thank you,
Dr. Greenthumb
 

Green Dave

Well-Known Member
The mafia has been in business longer. Does that make the mafia reputable?




Which; "Seedbankupdates" are you talking about and how do you get possibly as long as two decades of top ratings? Greenman's seedbank update is the longest running seedbank ratings site online and it's now in it's 13th or 14th year. Neither add up to two decades. Right now Dr. Ripoff has a 4 star rating there .. which is not the highest rated of all the sites listed and it is not the highest rating that can be given. Also he was down to a 3 1/2 star rating for over a year and only a few months or so back made it back up to a 4 star rating ... that still leaves him rated lower than the sites with 4 1/2 star ratings. So how is your claim that Dr. Ripoff; "has been top rated at seedbankupdates for a decade or two accurate? No ratings site has been active for two decades and the longest running ratings site, Greenman's, has not continually had Dr. Ripoff as the highest rated place to buy from and he currently does not have Dr. Ripoff rated as the highest place to buy from.

So what seedbankupdate site are you claiming has rated Dr. Ripoff the highest for a decade or two?






He pays them advertising dollars and regardless of how much you would love to believe that does not and will not in any way influence a publication, it will and it does.





He pays them advertising dollars and regardless of how much you would love to believe that does not and will not in any way influence a publication, it will and it does.



WOW .. one guy that may or may not be all that honest or have the strain claimed and for all anyone knows is collecting payments for his alleged; "endorsement."




How do you know? Is his site like McDonalds and has a sign saying how many people have been served? Where is your proof?

Also what about all those who have been totally dissatisfied by at least some of Dr. Ripoff's gear? Doesn't what they say carry some weight? You seem to claim to know some number range of satisfied customers, but what about the number range of dissatisfied customers?





So much of his 'claim to fame' comes from making S1s of other people's work. WOW, I'm impressed by that!

While I do admit that winning Cups is not all that many people believe it is, why is it that if you look through the list of High Times Cannabis Cup winners and and the Spannabis Cup winners and the Highlife Cannabis Cup winners and the IC 420 Growers Cup winners you will NOT find Dr. Greenthumb mentioned as having won anything in any of them? Even since Shantibaba and Nevil got fed up with Arjan and sold out took a hike a hack business like Green House Seeds has won multiple times. Barney's Farm has won multiple times. BC Bud Depot has won, KC Brains has won, not to mention all the truly skilled high quality breeders that have won .... but NOT Dr. Ripoff. He hasn't even won one of the lesser Cup competitions that are almost a joke to win.

Why is that? If he is so spectacular then why is his name not among all the names of all the winners of the various different competitions? But what the heck ... Jim Ortega; "endorses him" so that means a whole lot more in the long run, doesn't it?
Greenthumb is the only BREEDER on your list
The Tude and others sell other peoples seeds Greenthumb only sells seeds he bred that being said lets see the list of the top breeders /sales
 

SCARHOLE

Well-Known Member
Its just like buying skunks.

Do you want skunk 1 from 1977, or do you want the most potent highest yeilding skunk that may be a cross available today? (cheese ,Warlock Power, super skunks)
Im far more woried about yied an potency short flower time VS authentic 70s strain.

Im not botherd that DrGts G13 may have been crossed.
 

Brick Top

New Member
Greenthumb is the only BREEDER on your list
The Tude and others sell other peoples seeds Greenthumb only sells seeds he bred that being said lets see the list of the top breeders /sales
1. I did ask what seedbank update you were talking about. You did not tell us which one you were talking about.
2. You either lied or you were wrong when you said that Dr. Greenthumb was the only breeder on Greenman's seedbank update ratings page.

Hemcy is a breeder. In 2008 Hemcy's Original Haze took 3rd place in the Highlife Cannabis Cup. Sure it was only the Highlife Cannabis Cup .... but Dr. Greenthumb's name doesn't show up among any of the winners of any Cup Competitions. http://www.hemcy.com/

Joey Weed is a breeder. http://www.hempdepot.ca/seeds/joeyweed/index.html

PeakSeedsBc is a breeder. http://www.peakseedsbc.com/

All three have HIGHER ratings than Dr. Greenhumb does on Greenman's Seedbank Update Rating site.

Then there was also the lower rated Gypsy Nirvana that has it's own line, that does breed. That makes four other breeders among the list. https://www.seedboutique.com/Products.aspx?SubCategoryId=39

It also appears that Bluenose breeds. That makes five other breeders on the list. http://members.tripod.com/a_grower/buy.html



Clearly you lied when you claimed that on Greenman's list that I posted none other than Dr. Greenthumb is a breeder. That means you totally lack credibility since you are willing to intentionally lie to attempt to make Dr .Greenthumb's ratings sound better than they are. Well .. I suppose it is possible that in reality you did not lie and instead just know so very little about things you are attempting to appear to be knowledgeable about that you were totally unaware that there are other breeders on the list, one a 3rd place Cup winner. But what that would mean is that you know so very little that there is no reason why anyone should believe anything you say since you could be equally incorrect about other things, since you clearly know so very little, or that you flat out lie.



So .... what seedbank update ratings site are you talking about? You know, the one that has given Dr. Greenthumb the highest rating for the last decade or two, as you claimed? Is it the list you asked for when you said; "lets see the list of the top breeders /sales?" I figured you must have that and that is what you were going by based on your claim .... even though the two decade part of your claim had to be inaccurate since no seedbank ratings site has been operating longer than Greenman's and he's in his 13th or 14th year now and he has NOT always given Dr. Greenthumb the highest rating ... or even rated him as high as other seedbanks.

The highest rating he gives is 5 stars and I have used Greenman's ratings site for about 11 years now and I have never once seen Dr. Greenman get a 5 star rating. The only sites I can remember for sure to get 5 star ratings were Hemp Depot (not a breeder) and Hemcy (both breeder/sales) and I think the no longer in operation Heaven's Stairway (not a breeder) had it for a while too.

Right now the highest rating he has anyone getting is 4 1/2 stars, three of them are breeders. Dr. Greenthumb is NOT one of them. He only moved up from a 3 1/2 star to a 4 star rating in the last several months.

So ... how about posting a link and maybe even C&Ping the page of the seedbank update rating site that you are claiming has given Dr. Greenthumb the highest rating for a decade or two now and posting it so we can all see for ourselves?
 

a dog named chico

Well-Known Member
Its just like buying skunks.

Do you want skunk 1 from 1977, or do you want the most potent highest yeilding skunk that may be a cross available today? (cheese ,Warlock Power, super skunks)
Im far more woried about yied an potency short flower time VS authentic 70s strain.

Im not botherd that DrGts G13 may have been crossed.
I thought this thread died about 40 pages ago...any ways

NOT TO STIR UP SHIT, but that is my whole point. HE IS CLAIMING IT IS PURE, if he had said G-13Xwhatever than i wouldn't be here or care. but selling it as the pure G-13 namesake, he had better have some solid proof given the nature of the strain. I AM NOT BASHING THE DOC, if this had gone down with Barneys or GHS i would be typing the same words now. Don't shit in a box, charge me $200 and call it gold! Now whatever his strain is, i hope for whoever bought it, that it turns out some what good.
 

Brick Top

New Member
Its just like buying skunks.

Do you want skunk 1 from 1977, or do you want the most potent highest yeilding skunk that may be a cross available today? (cheese ,Warlock Power, super skunks)
Im far more woried about yied an potency short flower time VS authentic 70s strain.

I suppose the answer to that would be in part if someone is a purist or only goes by what something is called/named. There are strains with Skunk in the name where it is so far back in it's lineage that it could hardly accurately be called a Skunk strain. It is similar with some strains called a Haze when there is so little Haze in them that they do not really qualify to accurately be called a Haze.

And when it comes to Skunk strains, no other Skunk strain has been so widely used in crosses as Skunk #1. That does speak well of it, especially when compared to so-called Skunk strains that have such a genetic mix that they hardly, if at all, accurately qualify as being a Skunk strain.

I have grown a goodly number of strains that were called Skunk but the 'Skunkiest' strain I have ever grown, the one that had such a powerful skunk odor that when I grew it on my deck my neighbors, which are not close like suburban or city neighbors, commented once about how they must be a skunk around and asked if my dogs were sprayed because they smelled skunk so often and to potent ...... and the strain was purchased on the old Cbay auction from an amateur breeder and the cross was G13-NL and White Russian.


Im not botherd that DrGts G13 may have been crossed.
That's totally cool and the gang with me .. but if it is indeed a cross, like it absolutely has to be, does it at all bother you that Dr. Greenthumb is so dishonest that he lies about it and incorrectly claims it to be the real true original "pure" G13 so he can overcharge for it by claiming it to be the real true original "pure" G13?

If that doesn't bother you ..... it should.
 

OGMan

Well-Known Member
1. I did ask what seedbank update you were talking about. You did not tell us which one you were talking about.
2. You either lied or you were wrong when you said that Dr. Greenthumb was the only breeder on Greenman's seedbank update ratings page.

Hemcy is a breeder. In 2008 Hemcy's Original Haze took 3rd place in the Highlife Cannabis Cup. Sure it was only the Highlife Cannabis Cup .... but Dr. Greenthumb's name doesn't show up among any of the winners of any Cup Competitions. http://www.hemcy.com/

Joey Weed is a breeder. http://www.hempdepot.ca/seeds/joeyweed/index.html

PeakSeedsBc is a breeder. http://www.peakseedsbc.com/

All three have HIGHER ratings than Dr. Greenhumb does on Greenman's Seedbank Update Rating site.

Then there was also the lower rated Gypsy Nirvana that has it's own line, that does breed. That makes four other breeders among the list. https://www.seedboutique.com/Products.aspx?SubCategoryId=39

It also appears that Bluenose breeds. That makes five other breeders on the list. http://members.tripod.com/a_grower/buy.html



Clearly you lied when you claimed that on Greenman's list that I posted none other than Dr. Greenthumb is a breeder. That means you totally lack credibility since you are willing to intentionally lie to attempt to make Dr .Greenthumb's ratings sound better than they are. Well .. I suppose it is possible that in reality you did not lie and instead just know so very little about things you are attempting to appear to be knowledgeable about that you were totally unaware that there are other breeders on the list, one a 3rd place Cup winner. But what that would mean is that you know so very little that there is no reason why anyone should believe anything you say since you could be equally incorrect about other things, since you clearly know so very little, or that you flat out lie.



So .... what seedbank update ratings site are you talking about? You know, the one that has given Dr. Greenthumb the highest rating for the last decade or two, as you claimed? Is it the list you asked for when you said; "lets see the list of the top breeders /sales?" I figured you must have that and that is what you were going by based on your claim .... even though the two decade part of your claim had to be inaccurate since no seedbank ratings site has been operating longer than Greenman's and he's in his 13th or 14th year now and he has NOT always given Dr. Greenthumb the highest rating ... or even rated him as high as other seedbanks.

The highest rating he gives is 5 stars and I have used Greenman's ratings site for about 11 years now and I have never once seen Dr. Greenman get a 5 star rating. The only sites I can remember for sure to get 5 star ratings were Hemp Depot (not a breeder) and Hemcy (both breeder/sales) and I think the no longer in operation Heaven's Stairway (not a breeder) had it for a while too.

Right now the highest rating he has anyone getting is 4 1/2 stars, three of them are breeders. Dr. Greenthumb is NOT one of them. He only moved up from a 3 1/2 star to a 4 star rating in the last several months.

So ... how about posting a link and maybe even C&Ping the page of the seedbank update rating site that you are claiming has given Dr. Greenthumb the highest rating for a decade or two now and posting it so we can all see for ourselves?
I think Greenthumb has the highest rating possible without offering Paypal
 

Brick Top

New Member
1. I did ask what seedbank update you were talking about. You did not tell us which one you were talking about.
2. You either lied or you were wrong when you said that Dr. Greenthumb was the only breeder on Greenman's seedbank update ratings page.

Hemcy is a breeder. In 2008 Hemcy's Original Haze took 3rd place in the Highlife Cannabis Cup. Sure it was only the Highlife Cannabis Cup .... but Dr. Greenthumb's name doesn't show up among any of the winners of any Cup Competitions. http://www.hemcy.com/

Joey Weed is a breeder. http://www.hempdepot.ca/seeds/joeyweed/index.html

PeakSeedsBc is a breeder. http://www.peakseedsbc.com/

All three have HIGHER ratings than Dr. Greenhumb does on Greenman's Seedbank Update Rating site.

Then there was also the lower rated Gypsy Nirvana that has it's own line, that does breed. That makes four other breeders among the list. https://www.seedboutique.com/Product...bCategoryId=39

It also appears that Bluenose breeds. That makes five other breeders on the list. http://members.tripod.com/a_grower/buy.html



Clearly you lied when you claimed that on Greenman's list that I posted none other than Dr. Greenthumb is a breeder. That means you totally lack credibility since you are willing to intentionally lie to attempt to make Dr .Greenthumb's ratings sound better than they are. Well .. I suppose it is possible that in reality you did not lie and instead just know so very little about things you are attempting to appear to be knowledgeable about that you were totally unaware that there are other breeders on the list, one a 3rd place Cup winner. But what that would mean is that you know so very little that there is no reason why anyone should believe anything you say since you could be equally incorrect about other things, since you clearly know so very little, or that you flat out lie.



So .... what seedbank update ratings site are you talking about? You know, the one that has given Dr. Greenthumb the highest rating for the last decade or two, as you claimed? Is it the list you asked for when you said; "lets see the list of the top breeders /sales?" I figured you must have that and that is what you were going by based on your claim .... even though the two decade part of your claim had to be inaccurate since no seedbank ratings site has been operating longer than Greenman's and he's in his 13th or 14th year now and he has NOT always given Dr. Greenthumb the highest rating ... or even rated him as high as other seedbanks.

The highest rating he gives is 5 stars and I have used Greenman's ratings site for about 11 years now and I have never once seen Dr. Greenman get a 5 star rating. The only sites I can remember for sure to get 5 star ratings were Hemp Depot (not a breeder) and Hemcy (both breeder/sales) and I think the no longer in operation Heaven's Stairway (not a breeder) had it for a while too.

Right now the highest rating he has anyone getting is 4 1/2 stars, three of them are breeders. Dr. Greenthumb is NOT one of them. He only moved up from a 3 1/2 star to a 4 star rating in the last several months.

So ... how about posting a link and maybe even C&Ping the page of the seedbank update rating site that you are claiming has given Dr. Greenthumb the highest rating for a decade or two now and posting it so we can all see for ourselves?

I think Greenthumb has the highest rating possible without offering Paypal
What does that have to do with the statement that was made that Dr. Greenthumb has had the highest ratings given over the last decade or two or that he was the only breeder in the list I posted, of which neither statement was true?
 
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