Changes the Way you Think about Drainage

[Zaehet Strife]

if your using bags instead of pots, you can gently press the sides to break up the compact dirt

 

[Uncle Ben]

This all seems very unnecessary. Mix soil, put soil in pot, water, let dry, water, let dry, water...

I don't understand the problem.

Ditto.

There will be no sitting water if you use pots with drain holes and understand the basics. Sure doesn't belong in Advanced.

UB

 

[Beansly]

For covering the drainage hole in the bottom center, I've used window screen, piece of shade cloth, rock or a shard from a broken clay pot to retain fine soil. No big deal. I use chunks of foam in the bottom side holes - black commercial pots.

Not buying it (the ICMag drill). Best preventative for a saturated soil/rotting root system is a healthy plant with a lot of foliage. THAT'S your wick - foliage. If you have to use a cloth wick or some other gimmick then you need to relearn the basics of soil culture and what makes a plant tick. A plant wicks off moisture at the root zone via physical properties such as transpiration, turgor pressure, capillary action and such.

I make it a habit to add silt to my pots to tighten up the soil after a plant is established from an upcan session. A saturated root zone and root rot is the least of my worries, but that's just me.

Adding a shallow layer of coarse perlite or small gravel to the bottom of the pot first will increase an air exchange at the lower root zone, something your friend may not have mentioned. It's not the amount of water at the root zone that's the issue, it's the exclusion of air. Roots will grow into the gravel and benefit from water and salts that collect there.

It's all in The Balance,
UB

Sure doesn't belong in Advanced.
UB

I think if your putting anything in your pots beside soil, even chunks of foam or "small layer of perlite," then your wasting space for soil for your roots. Your right that proper soil building and solid fundamentals means you don't have to worry about these problems, but this thread wasn't for pro's to gloat about how good their soil is. It's to help the people who are still having problems figuring it out.

You don't have to believe the ICmag POV (which sounds to me like you have more of a bias against icmag than the idea...just because it's from a site you don't like doesn't mean it's wrong), I've seen it with my own eyes. Sometimes when I'd transplant I would notice a very saturated layer of soil above the "drainage layer" that if I squeezed, water would pour out, even though the plant wasn't exhibiting signs of salt build up or over-watering
If it was that simple, there would be no replies to this thread, except for insecure people trying to feel better about themselves by being nonconstructive and mean to people that know less than they do.

And tbf, this is kind of advanced for this site.

Besides, a lot of people are still using a drainage layer and I wanted everyone to know that it's not necessary. How that a waste?

 

[deprave]

exactly Jerry, if you are adding 'drainage' layer at the bottom then you are trying to fix the wrong problem, adding a drainage layer imho is very silly, get better dirt and your problem will go away. I have only seen amateurs and/or people whos methods are not based in science advocate for a drainage layer(I.E. Jorge Cervantes) while the real scientist, the botanist and horticulture professionals preach against it. It is important to keep an open mind and understand everyone's opinion on a given issue but I think on this topic the coffin is nearly nailed shut.

So while it may seem to the above poster that the veterans like UB are being arrogant on this topic, I think the reality of this topic is that its a closed case here and its not arrogance but frustration that this myth is still being perpetuated when its been debated time and time again and the conclusion is always that 'drainage layers' or 'rocks' at the bottom of your pot does more harm then good.

 

[Beansly]

exactly Jerry, if you are adding 'drainage' layer at the bottom then you are trying to fix the wrong problem, adding a drainage layer imho is very silly, get better dirt and your problem will go away. I have only seen amateurs and/or people whos methods are not based in science advocate for a drainage layer(I.E. Jorge Cervantes) while the real scientist, the botanist and horticulture professionals preach against it. It is important to keep an open mind and understand everyone's opinion on a given issue but I think on this topic the coffin is nearly nailed shut.

So while it may seem to the above poster that the veterans like UB are being arrogant on this topic, I think the reality of this topic is that its a closed case here and its not arrogance but frustration that this myth is still being perpetuated when its been debated time and time again and the conclusion is always that 'drainage layers' or 'rocks' at the bottom of your pot does more harm then good.

Topics on forums are brought up over and over again. It's an inherent trait of online boards. If that disturbing or new to you, maybe you shouldn't be on one.
And if it was a closed case, it wouldn't have been debated again.
there are ways to tell someone they should have known something with tact. Sayings things like "gimmick", and "that's just me" give off a know-it-all attitude. I like UB and I think he's smart, but I'm just tired of the rudeness and arrogance on-line. You shoulda seen the response by collective gardener (in 20000 watt grow blah blah blah thread) to a troll who burst in after reading only the first page (of like 90 or something) and assumed he knew it. Completely wrong and totally rude about it. True dumbass. Nobody would have been mad at collective gardener for going off on this guy, but instead he apologized to the troll for being inaccurate, and gave him a clear-headed response. It inspired me to stop being rude to people that knew lee than me even if they attack me. Snide quips, and clever remarks are nonconstructive and don't help anyone.
It's different when your trying to be funny. I'm not suggesting that nobody joke ever. It's just stupid to dismiss a topic and everyone talking about it because you already know. If anything you should be giving an unbiased argument as to why you disagree.
Impassioned, fact-based, unbiased arguments do more to sway peoples opinions than off the cuff thoughts.
Idk, I'm ranting now. See what you bastards do to me? lol

 

[growinhound]

hey beansly just curious,does your avatar represent you some how? partyin ol dude. dont get pizzed .keep up the good work

 

[Beansly]

hey beansly just curious,does your avatar represent you some how? partyin ol dude. dont get pizzed .keep up the good work

I'm just trying to help people grow better pot man. I hate negative people.

Yeah in a way my avatar does represent me. I'm like that tho. I wouldn't have picked it if it didn't.
I'm only 28 but I've got an "old soul" as they say.
I like to keep things old school, and I don't like new trends, idk,
but yeah just a hard partying, stumblin' OG (old guy).

Thanks for good words man, I appreciate it.
Beanz

 

[Uncle Ben]

I think if your putting anything in your pots beside soil, even chunks of foam or "small layer of perlite," then your wasting space for soil for your roots.

You obviously haven't put down a layer of gravel at the bottom of a pot and then inspected the root zone after all is said and done. Roots will spin out in that medium, which is filled with organics and other particulates from above.

Your right that proper soil building and solid fundamentals means you don't have to worry about these problems, but this thread wasn't for pro's to gloat about how good their soil is. It's to help the people who are still having problems figuring it out.

Has little to do with "how good the soil is". Has to do with basic plant culture.

You don't have to believe the ICmag POV (which sounds to me like you have more of a bias against icmag than the idea...just because it's from a site you don't like doesn't mean it's wrong), I've seen it with my own eyes. Sometimes when I'd transplant I would notice a very saturated layer of soil above the "drainage layer" that if I squeezed, water would pour out, even though the plant wasn't exhibiting signs of salt build up or over-watering

Then you done screwed up having very poor root health and root tissue bulk.

If it was that simple, there would be no replies to this thread, except for insecure people trying to feel better about themselves by being nonconstructive and mean to people that know less than they do.

And tbf, this is kind of advanced for this site.

Besides, a lot of people are still using a drainage layer and I wanted everyone to know that it's not necessary. How that a waste?

No, a drainage layer is not necessary. In fact, it's a bit silly. Doesn't mean it will do the plant any harm however.

IC Mag is full of noobs who have not yet figured it out. Commercial growers do not put any kind of crap in the bottom of their pots as they know that a well grown plant will wick off excess moisture, water. If that's what this person who seems to have rediscovered the wheel is espousing, then all I have to say is "duh".

Like I said....... for the sake of convenience, I use chunks of foam to plug the 6 drain holes found in commercial black pots which is all I use. It has nothing to do with drainage layers.

UB

 

[Jerry Garcia]

I still don't understand what causes this problem. How does water come to just sit at the bottom layer of a pot?

You're trying to compensate for excess moisture (because you overwatered) rather than just watering properly.

And frankly your soil and containers should be porous enough that once it has absorbed all it can the rest will drain out the bottom. A "perched water table" should never happen in a container with quality soil and amendments. Why do you think runoff exists?

 

[cowboylogic]

Ditto.

There will be no sitting water if you use pots with drain holes and understand the basics. Sure doesn't belong in Advanced.

UB

Ya advanced would be growing without drain holes altogether...........

 

[Wolverine97]

I still don't understand what causes this problem. How does water come to just sit at the bottom layer of a pot?

You're trying to compensate for excess moisture (because you overwatered) rather than just watering properly.

And frankly your soil and containers should be porous enough that once it has absorbed all it can the rest will drain out the bottom. A "perched water table" should never happen in a container with quality soil and amendments. Why do you think runoff exists?

You know, for a Buckeye you're not so bad...

 

[Uncle Ben]

"Runoffs"....term for being smart enough for not getting your ass kicked by some pissed off Hereford bull on a rampage!

 

[farmboss]

A saturated root zone and root rot... worries... me.

Adding a shallow layer of coarse perlite or small gravel to the bottom of the pot first will increase an air exchange at the lower root zone, something your friend may not have mentioned. It's not the amount of water at the root zone that's the issue, it's the exclusion of air. Roots will grow into the gravel and benefit from water and salts that collect there.

It's all in The Balance,
UB

its called "mudding up" and can occur in hydro or soil. i use hydroton at the bottom and get FAT healthy white roots, in soil.

 

[Uncle Ben]

its called "mudding up" and can occur in hydro or soil. i use hydroton at the bottom and get FAT healthy white roots, in soil.

Hydroton is fine. I just potted up an avocado tree yesterday received by FedX. "My secret" potting technique was using a homemade, very rich, composty soil with alfalfa, local horse manure compost, perlite, sand, peat, etc. and at least a 1" layer of perlite in the bottom of the pot. Oh yes, and the 5 gal. pot was scrubbed well and then coated with Griffin's Spin-out paint to further increase root efficiency.

UB

 

[farmboss]

i had problem with SEVERAL types of plants, tomatoes, peppers, strawberries, okra, berries, etc..

all drainage and watering problems were fixed with something at the bottom.

perlite, hydroton, all works the same. rocks would even work.

naturally in the EARTH it is not just dirt 100 feet down....

 

[Uncle Ben]

i had problem with SEVERAL types of plants, tomatoes, peppers, strawberries, okra, berries, etc..

all drainage and watering problems were fixed with something at the bottom.

perlite, hydroton, all works the same. rocks would even work.

naturally in the EARTH it is not just dirt 100 feet down....

Okra in pots? Wow, that's a first. FWIW, it likes heat and not much water.

 

[fatality]

Agreed that it's all in the balance, and a proper soil mix combined with good watering technique precludes many of the issues with accumulating water. However, I don't agree that sitting water is good for the roots, even if there is material below it to provide 'aeration'. A layer of porous material will not be able to oxygenate sitting water at the bottom of the pot.

For beginners still trying to dial-in soil mix and watering, the wick concept is a great alternative that might save a crop.

+rep for the new information. This is the kind of stuff I love to see on this board and debated.

i concur , my buddy told me to use rocks at the bottom of my buckets, but something inside me wasn't allowing it, i guess it could have been god now that i think of it because he didnt want want me to hinder his creations as my atheist friend was doing...

 

[jjfoo]

beanz,

good luck convincing people... From some of the responses here you can see that people have beliefs that they will hold on to no matter what.

Just because someone has healthy plants doesn't mean there is no room for improvement. Yet many will site there great growth as proof that there argument is right. You are dealing with true believers not scientists...

 

[krok]

@Beansly, that was an interesting read, thank you.
Ignore the noise (sadly, not only from the ignorant).

I've seen the PWT myself, and it did worry me (but my plants did not seem to mind it).

I use tall pots wich are narrower at the bottom, I wonder how that affects the PWT. After reading this, I decided to drill a lot of tiny holes in my pots - why not, can't hurt.

 

[DrFever]

@Beansly, that was an interesting read, thank you.
Ignore the noise (sadly, not only from the ignorant).

I've seen the PWT myself, and it did worry me (but my plants did not seem to mind it).

I use tall pots wich are narrower at the bottom, I wonder how that affects the PWT. After reading this, I decided to drill a lot of tiny holes in my pots - why not, can't hurt.

one would think having narrower pots on bottom will only heighten your chances of having root problems if you like tall pots why not go to 20 litre pails and drill holes on bottom