Vote for Ron Paul-----Great idea

[The Ruiner]

Sure, Libya sucks ass, but does that give him the right to invade without congressional approval? Not to mention that SF and other operatives were on the ground before the rebels even started picking up steam. Granted, this is nothing new. Pretty sop to have SF units in that far ahead of any main attacks. My point is, we invaded Afghanistan because of terrorists, Iraq because of supposed WMDs, and now Libya as a humanitarian effort? At what point is there a line drawn that says, do not cross with military forces?

This was addressed by Ron Paul in his latest speech that was linked. I'm thinking I agree more with him, and I don't believe it is "isolationist" either. It seems to me that, with us being this broke, we might want to start consolidating our forces.

Like I said, it's not just "him" (Obama). Do you think for a second that he is FORCING the CIA or military leaders to do this? Doesn't that notion just dispense with the theory of "the Cabal" running the Nation? As I alluded to weeks ago, this was a planned campaign and should have come as no surprise. The explanations for war dont mesh well right? Well, the reasons for them dont necessarily read well in print, but it's all for the same reasons that are absolutely critical to US and allied interests (and to a great extent, the people of those nations).

Strategically speaking, the UN did a fantastic job of pooling resources (round of applause for France). In fact, most major combat oriented units have been pulled from Libya already. Our actual role there while imperative, is not as grandiose as it has been made out to be. In fact, we had an objective for our forces, we achieved them, and then we got the fuck out. As far as the ERoEI goes, it has been a highly successful campaign.

 

[NoDrama]

As far as the ERoEI goes, it has been a highly successful campaign.

Ask the families of the people that were killed by coalition forces if they think it was very successful.

 

[The Ruiner]

Ask the families of the people that were killed by coalition forces if they think it was very successful.

What about the families killed by the Qadhafi's forces? What about the decades of repression? Try to at least take a historical perpective. 30% unemployment man, at least 30%...that's tragic. Libyans for the most part were a people without a future, now at least they have leverage because UN forces need the support of the people just as much as the people need UN Forces. Symbiotic relationship with a huge common demoninator.

 

[NoDrama]

What about the families killed by the Qadhafi's forces? What about the decades of repression? Try to at least take a historical perpective. 30% unemployment man, at least 30%...that's tragic. Libyans for the most part were a people without a future, now at least they have leverage because UN forces need the support of the people just as much as the people need UN Forces. Symbiotic relationship with a huge common demoninator.

oh well booo hooo, guess what? Its not our country. If you have poor black people here in the USA who are being repressed would it be ok for Russia to start bombing us? Do you think thats ok? Honestly you can cry all you want about how hard those poor people have it over there, but the fact remains that isn't our country. Bombing other countries and then accidentally bombing the good guys certainly does not win us any more allies. We aren't over there to help anyone but ourselves, do you really think if we wanted to take out Ghadaffi we would go ahead and borrow the Central Bank of Libya $39 billion? http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-03-31/libya-owned-arab-banking-corp-drew-at-least-5-billion-from-fed-in-crisis.html

 

[The Ruiner]

oh well booo hooo, guess what? Its not our country. If you have poor black people here in the USA who are being repressed would it be ok for Russia to start bombing us? Do you think thats ok? Honestly you can cry all you want about how hard those poor people have it over there, but the fact remains that isn't our country. Bombing other countries and then accidentally bombing the good guys certainly does not win us any more allies. We aren't over there to help anyone but ourselves, do you really think if we wanted to take out Ghadaffi we would go ahead and borrow the Central Bank of Libya $39 billion? http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-03-31/libya-owned-arab-banking-corp-drew-at-least-5-billion-from-fed-in-crisis.html

Why do you make the direct assumption that "Qadhafi is Libya"? Why would the UN put it's neck on the line if it was just to serve US interests. This is an antiquated thought-process. What doesn't help anyone is to be entirely in the dark about the reasons for the campaign, then lambasting them from a perspective of ignorance. Have you researched who the major players in the Libyan uprising are? We are talking about high-level defectors with everything to lose by choosing to cooperate with the rest of the world. And they do it for the benefit of their country, as a WHOLE. If our country has to grease the palms of diplomats in order to promote national security and Libyan prosperity, I am all for it, and you should be too considering what immense benefits you gain as a result.

 

[NoDrama]

What immense gains will I get now that we killed a bunch of people? None of the 911 Terrorists were from Libya, the majority were from Saudi Arabia. Don't see how deposing Ghadaffi helps to keep our nation secure.

 

[MixedMelodyMindBender]

@The Ruiner

I wanted to debate a little bit for a moment on Libya, and Ron Paul's slamming of the operation. Just to be clear, what are your views on the subject? Do you believe Obama has every right to make those choices to go into another war, for humanitarian reasons?

War and humanitarian in the same sentence is an oxymoron and sic.

 

[The Ruiner]

What immense gains will I get now that we killed a bunch of people? None of the 911 Terrorists were from Libya, the majority were from Saudi Arabia. Don't see how deposing Ghadaffi helps to keep our nation secure.

Because we are eliminating a competitor(s), quite frankly (China), from directing valuable resources to their country (without western companies getting their cut, which keeps our economy going whether we like it or not). Another big reason is strategy, China is trying to make themselves a naval power, an increased Sino presence would lead to active Chinese military operation in the region. If you look at a map, what is the most direct route from the oil-producing regions in the middle east to western Europe? From the Gulf of Oman, to the Gulf of Aden, into the Red Sea, then into the Suez Canal, directly into the Mediterranean, to the Atlantic. Infact, at the outbreak of the Libya campaign, China, for the first time in history, had to send an armed military frigate to essentially rescue their VIP nationals working in the country. They have been spouting off quite loudly on the world-front about the US dominates the water-ways (and they are correct). Recently, again for another "first time in history," China denied US surveillance ships entrance into the South China Sea. They want to be seen as the new world power, and have been rattling cages to do it. Libya was just another proxy for the US/China aggression to play out.

We are in diplomatic war, that much is readily apparent. What's troubling is the spill-over into acual engagement (which neither side wants, but...events sometimes are unpredictable). An outright war would ruin the repuations and critical economic relations between the US and China. And I sure as fuck don't want to see an outright war with China...but I don't want to see us become increasingly defenseless either. The more power that China gains over world resources, the less of a defense we have against a socio-economic nightmare here at home. Frankly, we need to be assertive in order to survive. And we have done an excellent job. If we were to suddenly quit, we would lose everything and it would never be regained.

That is why I am entirely supportive of the campaign in Libya, because I LOVE MY WAY OF LIFE. We have it pretty damn good here. As much as we all bitch and moan, we all know that we have it made when compared to the rest of the world. That's also why I stress the need to be informed, patient, and understanding with our government and its chosen path...

 

[UncleBuck]

there once was a rep, name of ron,
who claimed to be libertarian.
"i am the one who extols
equal rights for all,
just make sure to put 4 condoms on."

 

[UncleBuck]

tx-14 never had any finer,
than the libertarian in my wife's vaginer.
he said "i'd march with mlk!",
but at the end of the day,
they would eat at separate diners.

 

[NoDrama]

Because we are eliminating a competitor(s), quite frankly (China), from directing valuable resources to their country (without western companies getting their cut, which keeps our economy going whether we like it or not). Another big reason is strategy, China is trying to make themselves a naval power, an increased Sino presence would lead to active Chinese military operation in the region. If you look at a map, what is the most direct route from the oil-producing regions in the middle east to western Europe? From the Gulf of Oman, to the Gulf of Aden, into the Red Sea, then into the Suez Canal, directly into the Mediterranean, to the Atlantic. Infact, at the outbreak of the Libya campaign, China, for the first time in history, had to send an armed military frigate to essentially rescue their VIP nationals working in the country. They have been spouting off quite loudly on the world-front about the US dominates the water-ways (and they are correct). Recently, again for another "first time in history," China denied US surveillance ships entrance into the South China Sea. They want to be seen as the new world power, and have been rattling cages to do it. Libya was just another proxy for the US/China aggression to play out.

We are in diplomatic war, that much is readily apparent. What's troubling is the spill-over into acual engagement (which neither side wants, but...events sometimes are unpredictable). An outright war would ruin the repuations and critical economic relations between the US and China. And I sure as fuck don't want to see an outright war with China...but I don't want to see us become increasingly defenseless either. The more power that China gains over world resources, the less of a defense we have against a socio-economic nightmare here at home. Frankly, we need to be assertive in order to survive. And we have done an excellent job. If we were to suddenly quit, we would lose everything and it would never be regained.

That is why I am entirely supportive of the campaign in Libya, because I LOVE MY WAY OF LIFE. We have it pretty damn good here. As much as we all bitch and moan, we all know that we have it made when compared to the rest of the world. That's also why I stress the need to be informed, patient, and understanding with our government and its chosen path...

In other words its not about safety, its about world hegemony over resources. Keep the Chinese poor so that we may stay in power and do things that only those with plenty of Capital can do. Not much different than tripping the guy who is racing the marathon next to you. Aren't you concerned that this will anger a bunch of other nations? We are already hated world wide, whats a few more billion haters. Great thing to do to your number 1 trade partner.

 

[doc111]

Like I said, it's not just "him" (Obama). Do you think for a second that he is FORCING the CIA or military leaders to do this? Doesn't that notion just dispense with the theory of "the Cabal" running the Nation? As I alluded to weeks ago, this was a planned campaign and should have come as no surprise. The explanations for war dont mesh well right? Well, the reasons for them dont necessarily read well in print, but it's all for the same reasons that are absolutely critical to US and allied interests (and to a great extent, the people of those nations).

Strategically speaking, the UN did a fantastic job of pooling resources (round of applause for France). In fact, most major combat oriented units have been pulled from Libya already. Our actual role there while imperative, is not as grandiose as it has been made out to be. In fact, we had an objective for our forces, we achieved them, and then we got the fuck out. As far as the ERoEI goes, it has been a highly successful campaign.

I lol'd HARD at this! Obama is the commander in chief, the president, the big cheese. If he gives the order to go, the CIA and the military go! Now that doesn't mean he doesn't consult and get input on the matter. Of course he does, but he is the commander in chief of the armed forces. The chain of command stops with him. There is no higher authority.

 

[londonfog]

The CIA is an executive agency. The president appoints the director of the CIA, but that director, not the president, directly controls their actions. If the President doesn't like the CIA's actions, he can replace the director, but he cannot simply change their actions. In that way, there is a check on the President's power of executive agencies. So yes sometimes your right hand does not know what the left hand has done until after its done.

 

[NoDrama]

I always thought it was the CIA who controlled the President.

 

[mame]

I always thought it was the CIA who controlled the President.

Bush's book pretty much confirms this point.

 

[The Ruiner]

In other words its not about safety, its about world hegemony over resources. Keep the Chinese poor so that we may stay in power and do things that only those with plenty of Capital can do. Not much different than tripping the guy who is racing the marathon next to you. Aren't you concerned that this will anger a bunch of other nations? We are already hated world wide, whats a few more billion haters. Great thing to do to your number 1 trade partner.

And at what point do you actually say "thank you" for what this country provides you? Seriously man, do you want your life to get harder? The Chinese dont give a fuck about you, and if they were ever presented a chance to tip the scales in their favor, they would. Without a fucking doubt, they would. They want it, and bad...

Yes, I want to live in a safe, and secure country. If you cant see how energy security provides this, you are just being plain ignorant in the face of an overwhelming reality. It's entirely about safety. Like I illustrate in my Angola-thread (which you just bash with no real reply or substance), the Chinese are proving themselves to be ruthless exploiters. Libya would be without a doubt, worse off if they were allowed to continue their practices of exploitation...and so would you, PERSONALLY!

 

[Mellowman2112]

YEah China has no private central bank so they actually do things that make sense and look out for themselves. If somebody sold the government a 200 hammer labeled as a manual impact device he would get put up against a wall and shot. Here they encourage it. They send their people here to get an education crowding out our own students. They have their shit together and we dont. We have no kid left behind so that the smart kids are held back and dumbed down. All part of the plan to make us into stupid serfs.

And at what point do you actually say "thank you" for what this country provides you? Seriously man, do you want your life to get harder? The Chinese dont give a fuck about you, and if they were ever presented a chance to tip the scales in their favor, they would. Without a fucking doubt, they would. They want it, and bad...

Yes, I want to live in a safe, and secure country. If you cant see how energy security provides this, you are just being plain ignorant in the face of an overwhelming reality. It's entirely about safety. Like I illustrate in my Angola-thread (which you just bash with no real reply or substance), the Chinese are proving themselves to be ruthless exploiters. Libya would be without a doubt, worse off if they were allowed to continue their practices of exploitation...and so would you, PERSONALLY!

 

[The Ruiner]

YEah China has no private central bank so they actually do things that make sense and look out for themselves. If somebody sold the government a 200 hammer labeled as a manual impact device he would get put up against a wall and shot. Here they encourage it. They send their people here to get an education crowding out our own students. They have their shit together and we dont. We have no kid left behind so that the smart kids are held back and dumbed down. All part of the plan to make us into stupid serfs.

Dude...what does any of this have to do with anything? Their banks are state-run anyway...

Furthermore, we as a people have to take responsibility for our short-comings. Does blaming anyone other than ourselves actually accomplish anything? It's a common theme here to just blame "them" for everything that is wrong...What are YOU doing to make it better? What are the parents doing to make it better? If we are all too well aware that there are problems, then what collective action has been taken? What individual initiative has there been?

If a student can accel in school, he/she is going to REGARDLESS. If the parents are committed to their childs education, their child will succeed. People alread express a strong distrust of the government, yet they trust it to educate their kids, with the mass majority of parents ABSENT in their childs' education experience. It makes no sense to know that there's a problem, and to do nothing about it. At that point, pissed off parents need not do anything more than look into a mirror and see their oppressor.

 

[Mellowman2112]

Right that's the benefit in China the banks are aligned with the nation and do things to help the nation, when China prints money they dont immediately start paying interest to a third party private federal reserve like we do here. I am trying to do something and that is alert people to the screwjob we are taking so we can vote anyone who doesnt agree to the elimination of the federal Reserve out of office and take our country back. You enjoy a good standard of living and want it protected that is good and So do I. I want to protect it also. They are now doing to us what they did to Argentina. I watched the collapse of Argentina on youtube and the paralells are hella scary.
The two choices we have in our two party system are like going into a Mcdonalds and having the choice of a big mac and a big mac with no pickle, period. They are both owned by corporate lobbyists. Look at the video below and see the comparisons to what is going on here since around 2000. IF we had no Federal Reserve your income taxes would be at least ten percent less with the same benefits and services etc. Money could then actually be applied to our balance on the debt and when it was paid off income taxes could come down another ten or fifteen percent. We had no income tax before the Federal Reserve was created in 1913.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rH6_i8zuffs

Dude...what does any of this have to do with anything? Their banks are state-run anyway...

Furthermore, we as a people have to take responsibility for our short-comings. Does blaming anyone other than ourselves actually accomplish anything? It's a common theme here to just blame "them" for everything that is wrong...What are YOU doing to make it better? What are the parents doing to make it better? If we are all too well aware that there are problems, then what collective action has been taken? What individual initiative has there been?

If a student can accel in school, he/she is going to REGARDLESS. If the parents are committed to their childs education, their child will succeed. People alread express a strong distrust of the government, yet they trust it to educate their kids, with the mass majority of parents ABSENT in their childs' education experience. It makes no sense to know that there's a problem, and to do nothing about it. At that point, pissed off parents need not do anything more than look into a mirror and see their oppressor.

 

[Mellowman2112]

Ruiner-
you stated-
If a student can accel in school, he/she is going to REGARDLESS. If the parents are committed to their childs education, their child will succeed. People alread express a strong distrust of the government, yet they trust it to educate their kids, with the mass majority of parents ABSENT in their childs' education experience

Many teaches are saying they dont have time to instruct the bright kids and challenge them and they get bored and actually become problematic. No child left behind means horsecollar the bright ones and hold them back so the dumb ones arent left behind. IF we are going to have remedial classes for the difficult learners we need also gifted classes for the gifted don't ya think? I agree the parents need to be involved in this totally.