LED Grow Lights: Separating Fact from Fiction

jdizzle22

Well-Known Member
ok i got a good one for ya...

http://www.gothamhydroponics.com/grow-lights/gotham-hydro-led-grow-lights/blackstar-240w-led-grow-light-3w-cree.html

and

http://www.advancedledlights.com/products/NEW-%2d-180w-Extreme-Flower-LED-%2d-3w-USA-LEDs-%2d-11-Wavelengths.html

what is the difference between those two LED lights. is one better than the other? why? im totally confused by the ads...i just know plants need light lol
I would definitely go with the 180w as that light looks like it should actually pull that much, unlike the blackstar which would only pull about 133w. It also has more wavelengths and uses all 3w LEDs its definitely the better buy in my opinion. They will both grow, but one may be = 200w HID and the other 300w HID (and one is obviously higher quality light for plants)
 

TshirtNinja

Well-Known Member
i roll with multiple 240w blackstars with no issues..... all this garbage talk from HID users is why most led guys have left this forum all together..... I don't feel like defending my proven grows to people that can't understand that the tech has already caught up and even surpassed conventional HID systems. I'm just waiting for the plasma induction to come down just a hair and thats my next endeavor.
 

kush groove

Active Member
ok i got a good one for ya...

http://www.gothamhydroponics.com/grow-lights/gotham-hydro-led-grow-lights/blackstar-240w-led-grow-light-3w-cree.html

and

http://www.advancedledlights.com/products/NEW-%2d-180w-Extreme-Flower-LED-%2d-3w-USA-LEDs-%2d-11-Wavelengths.html

what is the difference between those two LED lights. is one better than the other? why? im totally confused by the ads...i just know plants need light lol
the difference is one guy wants to make a little more profit......all these panels are from china which is why they all they exact same make, model, and build.....some of these vendors may even through a sticker on the light or have it painted with a fancy color scheme, but they are all basically the same......blackstars are the cheapest that are proven to flower well
 

maxpesh

Active Member
Just looked at the first page of this thread and it's nearly 2 years old, does anyone realize how much leds have came along in just the last year alone ?
 

jdizzle22

Well-Known Member
Just looked at the first page of this thread and it's nearly 2 years old, does anyone realize how much leds have came along in just the last year alone ?
Whoops! Haha, thats how I feel about NASA and other science groups rolling old LED tech like its the shit (when it no longer is). Or see these pics of LED commercial grows and they are all using old LED tech that sucks compared to whats available now.
 

puffenuff

Well-Known Member
the difference is one guy wants to make a little more profit......all these panels are from china which is why they all they exact same make, model, and build.....some of these vendors may even through a sticker on the light or have it painted with a fancy color scheme, but they are all basically the same......blackstars are the cheapest that are proven to flower well
Not all LED lights come from china and not all are built identically. Maybe the shells are produced in the same place, but it's whats on the inside that matters and they are not the same. I have an Advanced LED panel, which are built in america, and it has different specs than the blackstars from gotham. Im assuming that the differences on the inside, such as all 3w vs 2 and 3w mix, ratio of light colors and wavelength differences are the reason in one costing more than the other. To say that they are the same and one is more expensive because they want more profit is misleading and not the entire truth
 

jdizzle22

Well-Known Member
Hey I just wanted to show everyone this cool pic I got off of the... nylon sheath? for my machete from my LED light (12 spectrum I believe). its really hard to get a picture of an LED that shows a bunch of the colors well but this random shot I decided to take actually turned out really well, its too bad this website minimizes the res so much, I will edit it to get a better view!

PS: This sheath it laying on the floor outside the tent near one of the intake flaps and wasn't exactly in direct light (kinda but not completely).
S7302148.jpg
 

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legolloyd

Member
LEDs are going to keep increasing in worldwide use because they are green and they save energy. A proven Fact. With TruGro LED Grow lights this will definitely help you in the grow room. A 600 watt LED grow light is equvilant to an 1000 watt HPS in output requiring less heat and electricity. About 65% Total. Less A/C during the year and Less Ventilation :blsmoke: Check out www.trugrolights.com to see the latest in LED grow lights. :cool:
 
I make led lights and test in my grow room in the last 3 years they have came out with a new led that is better and new drivers you have to have a driver to make it work right .The drivers run 90v to 360v so if you have a 110 light and you put a 220 plug it drops amps in half leds do real good in veg I have found out in flowering it will flower but the yield is less but the thc doubles so i run 4 600w leds and 2 hps i run all leds on 220 they pull 2amps each i put the plants under leds first then finsh under hps i take the glass out of the hood i run a swamp cooler set on a thermosat all leds run on 220 ken trugrolights
 
LED's Work. I build them and I do know as long as you use the colors that work, the light works. Individual LED's do not have markings on them indicating their nm of color (nano meters). So, its too easy for china men to put shades of red and blue in their that is not optimal for plant growth. One reason they would do it is because they mass produce too many of the shade not optimal for growth because they aren't familiar to our changing laws.

I know they work, check out my light!
 

0calli

Well-Known Member
AFRCN FREE ROOT BALL.jpgHYDRO , AFRCN FREE 1 WEEK INTO  FLWRG.jpgCLOSET SHOT (2).jpgHYDRO , AFRCN FREE 2 WEEKS.jpgHYDRO , AFRCN FREE.jpg well LED'S and CFL i have been using for my hydro grow and have had excelent results take a look just 1 week into 12/12 HOME MADE BUBLER HYDRO SETUP.jpg you can see in the 4th picture the fan leaves pointing right upat the led bulbs i got tow in the back 1 is a bulb and the one on the left is a spot light and 1 cfl in front and 2 on the side.
 

LBH

Well-Known Member
View attachment 1713141View attachment 1713140View attachment 1713139View attachment 1713138View attachment 1713137 well LED'S and CFL i have been using for my hydro grow and have had excelent results take a look just 1 week into 12/12 View attachment 1713135 you can see in the 4th picture the fan leaves pointing right upat the led bulbs i got tow in the back 1 is a bulb and the one on the left is a spot light and 1 cfl in front and 2 on the side.
Pic #4,lol the leaves point towards the sky in the morning and then droop in the evening, it's what Cannabis does, has absolutely nothing to do with lighting.

Look into some H&G Roots Excelurator or Kangarootz or something to get that root ball a little healthier. More root = more bud and you could have significantly more for this far along.

and your buckets are WHITE, read up on the basics to avoid losing a crop this late into the game. Root zones need to to be BLACKED OUT, WHITE kills.
 

0calli

Well-Known Member
actaually its is light resistant it doesnt pass through its completly dark when closed for your info LBH i know about algea build up duhhh from light
 

0calli

Well-Known Member
ok, I'll go check my info,lol.............white buckets......
and
its the density of the plastic not the color that counts take white plastic that is 2 mm thick light will disapate through it compared to a plastic bucket that is over a quater inch thick i did test it before use and its no bucket that is a recycled diaper genie lol
 

0calli

Well-Known Member
Pic #4,lol the leaves point towards the sky in the morning and then droop in the evening, it's what Cannabis does, has absolutely nothing to do with lighting.

Look into some H&G Roots Excelurator or Kangarootz or something to get that root ball a little healthier. More root = more bud and you could have significantly more for this far along.

and your buckets are WHITE, read up on the basics to avoid losing a crop this late into the game. Root zones need to to be BLACKED OUT, WHITE kills.

thnx for the headz up on the roots ill try the excelurator or the kangarootz what ever i can get my hands on lol and lets strat off on a new leaf and i appologize for the last bullshit thread i was bringing my home problems to the forum and i sincerly appologize LBH
 

espoker19

Active Member
I dunno about all the hoopla about longevity, wattage, heat with LEDs. But I have a 345 watt (290 watts actual power draw) LED using 1 watt diodes. I have 1 oscillating fan in a closet and temps never get above 79F...I use central air and keep the place at 75F. So far great growth in veg and 2 weeks into flower with decent pistils comin out. Don't think this light will last 10 years lol but 4 is a more reasonable number. Considering power costs, bulb changeouts in 4 years (2 per year, 600 watt HPS bulb about $50, X 8 is $480), and power usage (LED costs me about $12.00/ month in 12/12, about $21 in 18/6, whereas a 600 watt HPS is about $30/month in 12/12, and $45/month in 18/6 [not including fan/ cooling requirements]). So over 4 years the electricity difference would run $846...assuming im in 12/12 with the 600 watt HPS... so assuming very conservatively saying this LED will only last 4 years... thats $480 for bulbs and $846 in electricity, light has paid for itself. With a cost/ benefit analyses LEDs always beat out HIDs..... if its for personal use. Its different obviously for ppl who need the highest yield per unit of space.

IMG_5949.jpgView attachment 1754516View attachment 1754517
 

espoker19

Active Member
thnx for the headz up on the roots ill try the excelurator or the kangarootz what ever i can get my hands on lol and lets strat off on a new leaf and i appologize for the last bullshit thread i was bringing my home problems to the forum and i sincerly appologize LBH
Dude I know it has nothing to do with this topic but totally diggin your avatar. Had me hypnotized for a few minutes lol.
 
This is an old article that was published. Please, before sinking money into LEDs, consider the arguments made here. So, without further ado, what the LED grow light manufacturers don't want you to read!




Light emitting diodes (LEDs) are an exciting newer type of lighting for indoor horticulture with a number of new manufacturers coming out with LED grow lights. The LED lighting manufacturers make some pretty impressive claims about the performance of their products. Does the hype live up to their claims? We'll examine some of the claims about LED grow lights from an engineering and photo biology perspective and try to separate fact from fiction so that the consumer can make an informed choice about whether or not to take the plunge into LED grow lighting.

A major claim about LED grow lights is that they'll last for 50,000 or 100,000 hours (one manufacturer claims 11.41 years...!). Can a grow light really last being on for 10 years or so? Well, it depends. For one thing, a few of the manufacturers are giving numbers regardless of the actual LEDs used in their lamps. Most Chinese made LEDs, for example, actually have a rather poor track record as to their longevity (and the accuracy of the data sheets!).

There are two numbers that we need to look at for longevity of LEDs: the Lumen Maintenance level (L70) and mortality rate (B10). The Lumen Maintenance level is expressed in hours and is the point where LEDs have degraded to the point where they give off 70% of the light from when the LEDs were new. This is the “lifetime” rating of the LEDs. At this point there is also typically a 10% mortality rate so if you have an array of 100 LEDs you can expect 10 of the to burn out at a 90% confidence level. The harder that you drive a LED the shorter its life will be (higher temperature also shorten the life a the LED). This is a hidden cost that one must consider when making a long term capital investment in a lighting system that costs $5 per watt. Can you replace the LED that's mounted to a heat sink yourself? If not, there could be some down time and costs to get your light fixed. It's likely that by the time that the LEDs will start burning out the warranty will have expired. Wisely, at least one LED grow light manufacturer designed their light to make it easy to replace LEDs.

In a cost analysis of LED grow lighting it is also important to take into account the temperature of the LEDs. For example, the electrical efficiency of a high power red led is around 20% but this is for a junction temperature of 25 degrees Celsius. Run the LED with a junction temperature of 40 degrees Celsius, which is typical with a good heat sink, and the red LED drops down to about 17% efficiency, a 15% drop in light levels. In comparison, a high pressure sodium light is around 25-26% efficient with a magnetic ballast and closer to around 30% efficient with a “digital” ballast (the digital ballast is able to ionize the gases in a HPS bulb more efficiently. Also in a digital ballast the bulb will last longer due to the soft start feature found in digital ballasts).

It is possible to get red LEDs that are closer to 25% efficient but you can expect to pay a premium for them. LED manufacturers bin (test and sort based on characteristics) their parts. Unfortunately it's also possible to get red LEDs that are closer to 15% efficient if you get the wrong LEDs so it's important that one understands the bin code if ordering LEDs.

What about thermal efficiency? A claim made by a few manufacturers and writers is that LED grow lights put out no heat. This is very wrong; there is no way to get around the laws of thermodynamics. If you have a LED grow light with 100 watts input, at least 80 watts of heat will remain in the lamp housing which is why all higher power LED arrays on the market are either air cooled or water cooled and why the LEDs will be mounted on an aluminum heat sink. Nearly all of the 20 watts of light energy in this example also ends up as heat in accordance with the 1st Law of Thermodynamics (heat is the lowest form of energy and there's a conservation of matter and energy according to the 1st law, very little of the light is actually converted to matter). Even low power (5mm and 10mm LEDs) arrays generate heat proportional to their power levels. Try wrapping a low power array in a towel (OK, don't really try this!) and see how hot it gets. Trying running a high power LED at its rated current without a heat sink and see how many seconds it takes before the LED burns up (a 15 watt LED I accidentally “smoke tested” without a heat sink started burning in about two seconds at full power. I was talking with an engineer working for the LED manufacturer and he was surprised it look that long to burn! The 15 watt LED is about half the size of a dime).

If you have a series of closed rooms the same size and put a high pressure sodium lighting system with 1000 watts power input in one room, 1000 watts input of LEDs in the next room, a 1000 watt input air conditioning unit with no output exhaust in the next room and a 1000 watt electric heater in the last room, all of the rooms will be at the same temperature. There's nothing magical that makes LED grow lights cooler than other types of lighting watt for watt in an enclosed grow chamber. High power LED grow lights are, however, very efficient in dumping the heat off the lamp housing because of the aluminum heat sink and the active cooling but I can keep my 250 watt HPS bulb cooler by blowing air right on the bulb with a computer fan. If the 250 watt bulb were also efficiently thermally coupled someway to a proper size aluminum heat sink then the bulb would also stay fairly cool with active cooling but the total system heat output would be the same. The only way to lower the total system heat output is to use less power.

There's a high power LED grow light on the market that claims to be 90 watts. Is it? Nope! They do have 90 one watt LEDs in their lamp but a “one watt” LED isn't one watt. The way the manufacturers that actually make the LEDs rate any LED that runs at 350mA (mA stands for milliamp- an amp is a measure of current) is a “one watt” LED, 700mA is a “three watt” LED and 1000-1500mA is a “five watt” LED (10 and 15 watt LEDs usually have 4 LEDs on the same die in series). A typical one watt red LED will have a voltage drop of 2.25 volts- 2.25 volts times 350mA of current equals .79 watts of power. A typical blue LED will have a voltage drop of 3.4 volts- 3.4 volts times 350mA equals 1.19 watts. The 90 watt LED grow light has 82 red and 8 blue LEDs. This is closer to 75 watts rather than 90 watts. Unfortunately, a few grow light manufacturers use this “trick” to make their lights seem like they have more power than they do. One LED grow light manufacturer, homegrownlights.com and the maker of the Procyon 100, gives a true rating of their light (one hundred watts input to the LEDs and 125 watts input to the whole lamp).

It gets even worse with three and five watt LEDs. For example, one 5 watt red LED that I have gives a voltage drop of 2.5 volts at 1000mA. So that “five watt” red LED is actually a 2.5 watt LED while a blue “five watt” LED is closer to 3.5 watts. A “three watt” red LED is is more like 1.75 watts and a blue “three watt” LED is closer to 2.4 watts. It is important that the consumer understands this as more manufacturers start putting these higher power LEDs in their lamps.

Most LED grow light manufacturers measure the power rating of their lamps by power input. With one 48 watt LED grow light I've seen on Ebay, the seller actually claimed that the “48 watt” rating was because the plug-in power supply said 24 volts at 2 amps. Unfortunately, this doesn't tells us how much power that the lamp is actually using and may suggest that they're using a constant voltage power supply instead of a more proper constant current power supply.

It would be much easier on the consumer if all grow light manufacturers would just give the true power input to the LEDs just like makers of metal halide and high pressure sodium lighting systems rate the power of their products by the power input to the bulb.

Bottom line from an engineering perspective, watt for watt LEDs generate as much heat as any other type of lighting and they currently have a lower electrical efficiency (and lower luminous efficacy!) than high intensity discharge (HID) lighting such as high pressure sodium. LEDs will last longer than HID bulbs but there's many more of them to burn out and since LEDs are wired in series in arrays it's possible for the entire lamp to go out if one LED burns out. The good news is that if you're technically inclined, most LED lamps are fairly easy to fix. In addition, “50 watts” of LEDs, for example, might not actually be a true 50 watts of LEDs.

Well, we made it past the quick engineering perspective of LED grow lighting. Now, how do they do with plants? To start off with, you need to understand two different charts. One is the “absorption spectra of chlorophyll A and B” and the other is the “net photosynthesis” chart. You can look these charts up online and make sure that they're for land plants and not algae!

The absorption spectra of chlorophyll A and B shows very narrow absorption spikes centered around 660nm and 430nm for chlorophyll A while it's 640nm and 450nm for chlorophyll B. One can look at this chart and say we need LEDs to fall on these numbers and indeed a few LED lighting manufacturers actually use this graph to try to back their claim that LED grow lights are 20 or 30 times better than HPS (some really claim this), after all, the chart shows that there is very little absorption at 589nm which is where HPS has its spectral peak. There is just one major problem. The chlorophyll absorption charts are for isolated chlorophyll molecules suspended in a solvent and does not reflect total photosynthetic activity. In fact, different solvents can give slightly different numbers. If you're dealing with a LED lighting manufacturer or dealer hyping their product based on this chart then walk away. They are completely wrong, they likely don't realize it and no matter how much you argue with them you aren't going to change their minds. I speak from personal experience multiple times!

What we want to look at are the charts that show “net photosynthesis” and may also be referred to as the “action spectra”. I know I've already said this but it needs to be repeated, don't get algae charts mixed up with the land plant charts, they are different. Also, these charts tend to show relative results and not absolute results. They are normalized so that the lighting spectrum that is most efficient in photosynthesis is at 100%. This does not mean that 100% of that lighting spectrum is used in photosynthesis. It is only 100% compared to other lighting spectrum. This gets people confused. Also, there is no “one size fits all” chart, different plants will have a different optimal lighting spectrum, for example, purple basil and sweet basil are quite likely different since the purple basil is going to absorb more yellow light.

The action spectra charts show us something different than the chlorophyll absorption charts and explains why high pressure sodium lighting is so efficient. Most charts will show a high level of absorption in the 620-660nm range but at 589nm, the spectral peak of high pressure sodium lights, you're still getting 80-85% relative absorption and even with green you're looking at perhaps 50% absorption depending on the chart (yes, plants can use green light and any absorbed green photon is available for photosynthesis. I've grown lettuce under green high power LEDs and my results show about half the efficiency compared to red LEDs in terms of dry biomass. Plants aren't green because the absorb no green light, they're green because they absorb less green light. Green light will also stimulate auxins, an important class of growth hormones, which are needed in the biosynthesis of ethylene but that's another article!).

As far as lighting spectrum, it could be the case that the narrow LED lighting spectrum is not taking the full advantage of photosynthesis compared to a broader light source. Try looking up “Emerson effect” and look at the research.

Let's also look at photon flux density. A 100 watt LED light can put out lighting levels of roughly 100 umol/meter^2/sec. “umol” is pronounced “micro mole” and if you remember back to your high school chemistry classes the mole is Avogadro's number of 6*10^23. This makes one umol 6*10^17 photons and this unit is used quite often in photo biology. How far will that 100 umol/meter^2/sec of light get you? Well, to put it into perspective, full sunlight is 2000 umol/meter^2/sec (2000 umol per square meter per second), the photo saturation point for many food crops is around 1000 umol/meter^2/sec and most food crops thrive at 500 umol/meter^2/sec especially in flowering. The answer for the 100 watt LED light at an intensity of 500 umol/meter^2/sec is roughly two square feet. The 100 watt LED lamp can definitely grow in a larger area but the rate of photosynthesis will proportionally go down. I'll put my flame suit on now, some people are not going to be happy with this paragraph!

Well wait a second! What about these manufacturers claims about LEDs being 2, 4, 10, 20 (heck, pick your number, they're all over the place!) times more efficient than high pressure sodium lights? Here's the big reality check, if you get nothing else out of this article just remember this: there is no peer reviewed research paper backing these claims up. NASA has done extensive research, universities and private contractors working under Small Business Innovative Research contracts have done extensive research, yet not a single paper, not one, backs the claims that LED grow light manufacturers make about their lights and my 18 months in playing with LED grow lights also does not back these claims up. If you are a large grower about to drop thousands of dollars on LEDs please, I urge you, ask the LED grow light manufacturer to refer you to a peer reviewed paper that demonstrates the validity of their claims before making the purchase. If the manufacturer can not give you a link to a peer reviewed research paper then you need to ask why this is. LEDs have been well studied, where's the independent peer reviewed evidence showing how much better they are?
I Beg to differ. With a liquid cooled MH/HPS at 73 degrees (Freezing to the touch!) it put's out ambient heat that surpasses the water, and 2 layers of glass. If you are to hold your head under the hood at all for just a minute it will begin to burn your hair. The advertisements and statements of being able to penetrate up to 10 times more light by running liquid cooled so close to the plant is not possible without burning.
When running an air cooled 100W (if there were such a thing) MH/HPS you will still be reaching far too much heat to the plant surface. Even liquid cooled one has to be extremely careful, because HID refuses to not let heat flood out in some form or another.
You can get burn in by simply having a light too close to the canopy and the Photosynthesis alone if too close can burn the plant even if the plant never reaches abover 73 Degrees F.

The new 500W Black Star only draws 360W. 2 were tested against 1 X1000W HPS. There was a 6% difference in growth. 4 of them would not only be 1,440 LED Watts, but would easily beat 1,800W worth of HID lighting. More flowering sites, better times spent, better money spent, and you dont have to water but about 33% as much with LED over the HID which again still puts off an ambient heat that just sucks the soil dry.
 
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