God and Free Will.

C

Carthoris

Well-Known Member
In Christianity/Judaism and other related religions there is the idea that there is 'free will' for humans. There is also the outright statement that God is all knowing, all powerful, and in the past, present, and future. So my issue is this:

If God is past, present, and future as well as being all powerful and all knowing then he must have known that when he made the humans how they would end up. IE: A bunch of assholes who didn't do what he wanted.

If God made us and didn't know how we would end up then he cannot be all powerful and all knowing. If he made us and knew how we would end up, then we don't have free will.

Am I missing something that would allow the two to mesh?
 
Carne Seca

Carne Seca

Well-Known Member
Carthoris said:
In Christianity/Judaism and other related religions there is the idea that there is 'free will' for humans. There is also the outright statement that God is all knowing, all powerful, and in the past, present, and future. So my issue is this:

If God is past, present, and future as well as being all powerful and all knowing then he must have known that when he made the humans how they would end up. IE: A bunch of assholes who didn't do what he wanted.

If God made us and didn't know how we would end up then he cannot be all powerful and all knowing. If he made us and knew how we would end up, then we don't have free will.

Am I missing something that would allow the two to mesh?
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You're like the blind man that has to describe an Elephant by it's tail. It's a lot more complicated than you can imagine. According to Christian doctrine there was a war in Heaven and the Adversary was thrown down with those he corrupted which amounted to 1/3 the host of heaven. The war was about free agency. The Adversary wanted to force people to follow the will of God. Jesus stepped forward and offered himself as sacrifice for sake of humanity and to maintain free agency. People must choose to follow the Gospel and maintain their free will. Christ knew this and offered himself as sacrifice for the sins of mankind as they struggle through life and make mistakes. God cannot abide sin so no man can make it into Heaven by his own merits. It requires a mediator. Christ was that mediator. The fascinating aspect to this belief is the clear message that free will or free agency is an integral part of humanity and our spirituality. The fact that this scenario is going on in Heaven is a clear indication that free will was in full operation.

For free agency to truly work it must encompass all including God himself. He is bound by it. By choice. In a Christian perspective you can say that Evolution is the ultimate expression of free agency. There is great debate over this issue and you aren't the first to puzzle over it. I am just giving one perspective of a kaleidoscopic concept. :)
 
H

HuffPuppy

Member
A very difficult topic very well put Carne. In summary, God has a plan for us all but gave us free will to choose for ourselves whether to follow it.
 
NLNo5

NLNo5

Active Member
We are made in his image and likeness. We can't love him without freedom. He's not waiting for us to hit the nail on the head. He's giving us a life to lead and a path to follow as we see fit. It's like a marriage you don't really understand it until you've done it and completed your journey.

We have to complete the journey, THE TRICK IS IN THE COMPLETION OF IT. It's like preparation for something up ahead. If we bail now or take the wrong path in life we won't be at a place where we fully appreciate His program.

It's His grand love experiment going on in His great universe and he want's us to know the meaning of properly completing the journey. Each one of us has a separate and unique path, yet all of us can help each other along the way.
 
NLNo5

NLNo5

Active Member
0011StealTH said:
We have the FREEWILL of being our own creators we don't need a GOD
We have with IN

Take responsability.
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Never really was convinced we needed to remove the Creator from the Creation. Maybe free will and responsibility are also created by the Creator and a part of the Creative process.
 
Carne Seca

Carne Seca

Well-Known Member
NLNo5 said:
Never really was convinced we needed to remove the Creator from the Creation. Maybe free will and responsibility are also created by the Creator and a part of the Creative process.
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Just consider the possibility that Evolution is the method of Creation. You cannot dismiss Evolution. It's a proven biological process.
 
Eric Miller

Eric Miller

Member
ok, i have to make this clear about me before anything else i say comes out. I am a satanist. but i look at everything with an open mind without making any decision on something. no i am not the "enemy", nor do i want to be. i was raised in as a christian. I had so many questions about everything. my pastor could never answer me. i have tried praying. it did nothing for me. but i have seen prayer work for others. i have seen God "what or whoever that may be" working through other people. but i had to stop and ask myself was it the person making a decision themselves or was it something more? i do something what i like to call (for lack of a better term) "random acts of kindness". is that Gods work? or is that my work? i respect everyone's religion and/or beliefs or lack thereof. i just ask a simple question please dont throw virtual stones they kind of hurt too. especially on a subject such as this.
 
mindphuk

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
HuffPuppy said:
A very difficult topic very well put Carne. In summary, God has a plan for us all but gave us free will to choose for ourselves whether to follow it.
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I think what the OP is saying is that omniscience paired with omnipotence is incapable with free will.


[video=youtube;S6_9QmM6TfE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6_9QmM6TfE[/video]
 
Carne Seca

Carne Seca

Well-Known Member
Eric Miller said:
ok, i have to make this clear about me before anything else i say comes out. I am a satanist. but i look at everything with an open mind without making any decision on something. no i am not the "enemy", nor do i want to be. i was raised in as a christian. I had so many questions about everything. my pastor could never answer me. i have tried praying. it did nothing for me. but i have seen prayer work for others. i have seen God "what or whoever that may be" working through other people. but i had to stop and ask myself was it the person making a decision themselves or was it something more? i do something what i like to call (for lack of a better term) "random acts of kindness". is that Gods work? or is that my work? i respect everyone's religion and/or beliefs or lack thereof. i just ask a simple question please dont throw virtual stones they kind of hurt too. especially on a subject such as this.
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So basically you're a Son of Perdition with a big heart. :p
 
NLNo5

NLNo5

Active Member
I've got no problem with evolution, I'm a biologist. evolution is pretty obvious to me. Just cause we have our understanding of the physical world and how it operates doesn't mean there isn't a spiritual world that is operating also. People like to put a lot of faith into science. But as a scientist I can honestly say we all barely know shit about shit. We are an incredibly limited organism with an incredibly limited perspective on the universe. Spiritual senses are just as important as physical senses, but many people are blind spiritually and rely too much on their physical knowledge.
 
iNVESTIGATE

iNVESTIGATE

Well-Known Member
blah blah blah blurpty blurp!



lol "God" is an idea. Created in the minds of primitive people thousands upon thousands of years ago when we had no real idea of what is what and desperately wanted an easy explanation. Outdated and nonsensical. Freewill is alive. Every action has a reaction. Be respectful to ACTUAL living people and reciprocate those feelings in social-life while we still and only have this ONE life. Fuck god. (:
 
NLNo5

NLNo5

Active Member
mindphuk said:
I think what the OP is saying is that omniscience paired with omnipotence is incapable with free will.


[video=youtube;S6_9QmM6TfE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6_9QmM6TfE[/video]
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You can ride that circle all day. The thing that comes to mind is we have pretty limited understanding based on a pretty narrow perspective about what omniscience, omnipotence and free will really are.

Rationalism has it's limits.
 
NLNo5

NLNo5

Active Member
iNVESTIGATE said:
blah blah blah blurpty blurp!



lol "God" is an idea. Created in the minds of primitive people thousands upon thousands of years ago when we had no real idea of what is what and desperately wanted an easy explanation. Outdated and nonsensical. Freewill is alive. Every action has a reaction. Be respectful to ACTUAL living people and reciprocate those feelings in social-life while we still and only have this ONE life. Fuck god. (:
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I guess we'll all find out some day. We're all gonna die an then we'll know for sure. iNVESTIGATE that. Maybe possibly there might be a God and it might be just a little bit prudent not to tell him to fuck off. After all you are promoting respect an reciprocation. Perhaps if there is a Creator maybe we have something to be thankful for. Besides all that, there are decent people here who may care quite a lot about the thing called God, maybe it might be respectful to at least respect that they appreciate something you don't and refrain from careless possibly painful words. Chances are the God people might actually care a lot about you too.
 
iNVESTIGATE

iNVESTIGATE

Well-Known Member
NLNo5 said:
I guess we'll all find out some day. We're all gonna die an then we'll know for sure. iNVESTIGATE that. Maybe possibly there might be a God and it might be just a little bit prudent not to tell him to fuck off. After all you are promoting respect an reciprocation. Perhaps if there is a Creator maybe we have something to be thankful for. Besides all that, there are decent people here who may care quite a lot about the thing called God, maybe it might be respectful to at least respect that they appreciate something you don't and refrain from careless possibly painful words. Chances are the God people might actually care a lot about you too.
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Well then.. i've been told then haven't i?



lol Sorry you took offense buddy-guy-friend. And investigate whatttt exactly!?

But "god" is a goddamn fuckin' douchebag, and you are too, if you side w/ an all powerful creator that has allowed and planned out all of this unnecessary death, deprivation, poverty, and loveliness.


I do have respect for people that give it and for things we can see/prove. Not just respecting something out of fear for being wrong. Which is basically fascism. If i die and i find myself standing there at the gate's w/ St. suck-my-Peter ill just say "So, WTF?! Was It A Good Show?"


Take care now buh-bye then.
 
mindphuk

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
NLNo5 said:
You can ride that circle all day. The thing that comes to mind is we have pretty limited understanding based on a pretty narrow perspective about what omniscience, omnipotence and free will really are.

Rationalism has it's limits.
Click to expand...
Rationalism or critical thinking, is the only tool we have to know if something is true or not. There may be this thing you call the spiritual world but without evidence, there is no way to know whether it actually exists or not. Omniscience, Omnipotence and free will are human defined terms, there is nothing special or limited about them. Either your god is omniscient or not. He either made us knowing that we would fail in his desire, or not. You are the ones giving specific traits to you god, not us. There might be a god, but the one described in the holy texts are contradictory therefore logically impossible.


[video=youtube;5wV_REEdvxo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wV_REEdvxo[/video]
 
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