• Here is a link to the full explanation: https://rollitup.org/t/welcome-back-did-you-try-turning-it-off-and-on-again.1104810/

is USA really bankrupt

DrFever

New Member
The U.S. isn't nearly as broke as the right would have you believe.

If the U.S. was in fact broke would we be able to borrow essentially unlimited amounts of money at nearly 0% interest rates?

Let me repeat, the U.S. is not broke. We are in debt, the country is running a deficit but we are not broke and in fact should have probably spent more to get out of this recession (and without all of those tax cuts, only ~100 billion of the 850 billion stimulus was infrastructure spending and it should have been most of the bill IMHO...700+bil).

Wait, "we should have spent MORE?@!"

Yes. according to the Kaynesian theory, detailed in this 1936 Book by an economist named Kaynes we should have spent our way out of the recession because in fact, it is governments "role". Kaynesian theory was used to forge the New Deal and was the dominating school of economic thought until the 70's (more on that in a moment). During the 50's and 60's the middle class was created due to the applied principles of Kaynes theories, including but not limited to:

Regulations on the banking industry (1932)
The New Deal
higher taxes on the rich.

This created the Great Compression; A time in the U.S.'s history of surprising economic equality(excluding Blacks and women I guess). The rich were rich but certainly not swimming in green and every American could work for a decent wage and own a home and a car.

The 1970's brought some new ideas - or old ones changed up a bit - in the Neoclassical economic model similer to the Classical model that had been used from the 1700's till the late 1930's and replaced by Kaynesianism.

But enough of all of this, the point is this:

Kaynesian depression economics strive to lower the unemployment rate while also striving to protect the average Joes standard of living. This means stimulus spending to stimulate demand, regulation to prevent another crysis and low interest rates from the FED.

The Neoclassical model works supply side economics. A policymaker following this model strives to decrease costs to allow for more to be employed. This is achieved through deregulation, tax breaks, tax cuts and pay cuts. An example of this, as contended by Neoclassical economists says that if the city could hire 100 workers for $30 an hour they could alternatively hire 300 workers for $10 an hour. BAM! lower unemployment!

Kaynesian economists countered said example by pointing out that the standard of living for those $10 an hour workers is much lower than the guy who would have made $30 an hour and they also pointed out that many skilled workers would go elsewhere looking for better pay.

We've seen the Neoclassical model as the predominant force in action for the last few decades. How has it performed?

“during the past 20 years, 56 percent of all income growth went to the top 1 percent of households. Even more unbelievably, a third of all income growth went to just the top one-tenth of 1 percent.” - Sen. Al Franken (D-Minn.)

The income for us, the average joes, has barely kept up with inflation since 1982.

We are not broke, but the rich would like labor to be cheaper; And that's what it comes down to.
if usa is not broke then why does usa owe china over 40 trillion dollars the system has failed you can only make so much money
evntually it has to stop there makin money loaning out the paper and you as citizens pay the interest funny huh but your not as near as broke as what ???? whats goin to be the next bail out plan
Usa has gone from being the worlds richest country to the worlds poorest

thank god huh that dec bailout plan was for unemployed benifits how many more would be hungry today but hey were not broke dude your blind if you think not
now do to the national debt being so high whats goin to happen to maggie mae there debt hasnt bin added to national debt yet either
 

DrFever

New Member
Why is California bankrupt? Well, that's at least the question that is in the minds of many. There is a constant tirade from the right that says California is bankrupt because of the liberal government. Although it is true that CA has a liberal government, albeit Republicans have had the governorship for the better part of the last ten years, and it is in serious need of cutting back red tape, minimizing government, and creating more efficient legislative processes, this 'crises' is yet another result of greed, not socialism.
In April 2001, a financial analyst during a conference call asked Enron's Jeffery Skilling how it is so that Enron was the only financial service company that did not have to produce a balance sheet. Skilling called the analyst an 'asshole' and hung up on him. Enron had been notoriously had problems making their financial quotas, however they would make them every time in the nick of time, this is where it begins.
California has 26,000 miles of power lines, however, in December of 2003, when California was using half of their normal power they use in the summer, their 'power supply' was restricted and the California Utilities Commission had to brown out areas in major metropolitan system. Funny, how did power get restricted when California was using one-third of its capacity?
Lets back up for a second. So it wasn't bizarre enough that California had to brownout their state when they had plenty of electricity? Well, get a load of this. Its called "deregulated electricity."
Governor Pete Wilson in 1996 and his legislature deregulated Californian electricity. Enron fervently searched for loopholes in this odd and difficult piece of legislation and they found several of them. Their goal was to exploit the Californian market in any way they could. They succeeded.
They were arbitraging the Californian market $1 to $2 MM a day. Operation 'Ricochet' exported energy out of the state when prices were low and when prices went up, they sold it back to the state. Simple. Take energy away from California and sell it back to California at a higher price. When California said no to the escalated price, brownouts occurred until they said yes. When prices weren't up enough, strong-arm tactics were used to convince power plants to shut down for a few days to push price up. They bet on the increase of energy and made even more money. Every opportunity that Enron could make money Enron took, no matter the cost. They laughed in the face of the sheer lack of social value in their dealings in the name of greed.
Greed that weakens this great nation every day...
 

mame

Well-Known Member
if usa is not broke then why does usa owe china over 40 trillion dollars the system has failed you can only make so much money
evntually it has to stop there makin money loaning out the paper and you as citizens pay the interest funny huh but your not as near as broke as what ???? whats goin to be the next bail out plan
Usa has gone from being the worlds richest country to the worlds poorest

thank god huh that dec bailout plan was for unemployed benifits how many more would be hungry today but hey were not broke dude your blind if you think not
now do to the national debt being so high whats goin to happen to maggie mae there debt hasnt bin added to national debt yet either
uhm.. we are not even close to "the poorest" nation.
 

Ernst

Well-Known Member
if usa is not broke then why does usa owe china over 40 trillion dollars the system has failed you can only make so much money
evntually it has to stop there makin money loaning out the paper and you as citizens pay the interest funny huh but your not as near as broke as what ???? whats goin to be the next bail out plan
Usa has gone from being the worlds richest country to the worlds poorest

thank god huh that dec bailout plan was for unemployed benifits how many more would be hungry today but hey were not broke dude your blind if you think not
now do to the national debt being so high whats goin to happen to maggie mae there debt hasnt bin added to national debt yet either
Watch http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/ Moving Forward.. Our system of Economics isn't based on Value it's based on debt.
In fact the economists I've seen on the news/debates say we need to expand the money supply and increase debt.
 

Ernst

Well-Known Member
Why is California bankrupt? Well, that's at least the question that is in the minds of many. There is a constant tirade from the right that says California is bankrupt because of the liberal government. Although it is true that CA has a liberal government, albeit Republicans have had the governorship for the better part of the last ten years, and it is in serious need of cutting back red tape, minimizing government, and creating more efficient legislative processes, this 'crises' is yet another result of greed, not socialism.
In April 2001, a financial analyst during a conference call asked Enron's Jeffery Skilling how it is so that Enron was the only financial service company that did not have to produce a balance sheet. Skilling called the analyst an 'asshole' and hung up on him. Enron had been notoriously had problems making their financial quotas, however they would make them every time in the nick of time, this is where it begins.
California has 26,000 miles of power lines, however, in December of 2003, when California was using half of their normal power they use in the summer, their 'power supply' was restricted and the California Utilities Commission had to brown out areas in major metropolitan system. Funny, how did power get restricted when California was using one-third of its capacity?
Lets back up for a second. So it wasn't bizarre enough that California had to brownout their state when they had plenty of electricity? Well, get a load of this. Its called "deregulated electricity."
Governor Pete Wilson in 1996 and his legislature deregulated Californian electricity. Enron fervently searched for loopholes in this odd and difficult piece of legislation and they found several of them. Their goal was to exploit the Californian market in any way they could. They succeeded.
They were arbitraging the Californian market $1 to $2 MM a day. Operation 'Ricochet' exported energy out of the state when prices were low and when prices went up, they sold it back to the state. Simple. Take energy away from California and sell it back to California at a higher price. When California said no to the escalated price, brownouts occurred until they said yes. When prices weren't up enough, strong-arm tactics were used to convince power plants to shut down for a few days to push price up. They bet on the increase of energy and made even more money. Every opportunity that Enron could make money Enron took, no matter the cost. They laughed in the face of the sheer lack of social value in their dealings in the name of greed.
Greed that weakens this great nation every day...
No one is broke..

The issue is taxation of the wealthy. There is an effort to cut taxes that pay for social services for the majority of the population.

Under a system of economic injustice there is fear that the majority of poor will demand more rights to the wealth and everyone that can is trying to protect the current distribution of wealth.

If we imagine hoards of hungry homeless folks protesting on some future date, these people demanding reductions in spending and cuts in taxes would be the ones pointing guns at the starving masses.
 

DrFever

New Member
uhm.. we are not even close to "the poorest" nation.

let me re-phrase

In the 12 years of the Reagan/Bush administrations, the United States went from being the world's largest creditor nation to the world's largest debtor
 

Serapis

Well-Known Member
Your argument doesn't explain the financial collapse around the world in countries that have stock markets.... Capitalism is why we have specualators driving up the cost of fuel and food. they set high buy orders, shut others out, and hope to make a profit on the increased pricing. that sounds to me as if someone is making a dime simply by spending dimes. Those dimes come from people who have nothing to do with the price of gas... We also have food prices going up dramatically, some blame the recent uprisings on that alone. Again, commodity market speculation by the rich....

It’s like Neal Boortz likes to say: “Rich people get richer because they keep doing the things that make them rich. Poor people stay poor because they keep doing the things that make them poor.” No amount of government intervention is going to “give” everyone equal results. Government involvement and regulation played as much if not more of a role in the housing bubble and the subsequent financial collapse. The dollar isn’t loosing value because of capitalism it’s because of government. The government is the one printing money to buy its own debt.

We have the second highest corporate taxes in the world. I don’t blame international corporations for taking advantage of the tax code. I blame the politicians because they set the dam system up. There are better ways to tax that don’t require the government to track every dollar a person makes.

I don’t belong to a “class” of people. I fall into a certain income bracket but “class” has nothing to do with that. But capitalism doesn’t force a person to pass judgment on others, that’s human nature.
 

Serapis

Well-Known Member
GWB, alone, outspent in deficit dollars, EVERY previous president before him, COMBINED.... He even beat out Ronald Reagan who had held the deficit spending record before GWB took office....

I love conservatism, only problem is, they only scream about it when democrats are in office.... ;)

let me re-phrase

In the 12 years of the Reagan/Bush administrations, the United States went from being the world's largest creditor nation to the world's largest debtor
 

Ernst

Well-Known Member
let me re-phrase

In the 12 years of the Reagan/Bush administrations, the United States went from being the world's largest creditor nation to the world's largest debtor
Also we exported American jobs to cheaper labour markets and generally make it impossible to ever pay the debt we owe because there isn't enough money in the world to do that.

It's about Slavery not Freedom from what I can tell.
 

DrFever

New Member
GWB, alone, outspent in deficit dollars, EVERY previous president before him, COMBINED.... He even beat out Ronald Reagan who had held the deficit spending record before GWB took office....

I love conservatism, only problem is, they only scream about it when democrats are in office.... ;)
your right it started long ago the down turn i just shake my head
one begins to wonder why JFK really got killed well the documents will be out soon anyone think that his own kind got him shot i think so being JFK was lookin other ways rather then war but in the mind sets of many war ment $$$$$


USA made money having wars
 

DrFever

New Member
anyone know the answer to why usa went to vietnam anyways 10 yrs wasted only to be chased out by rice farmers with pitch forks :)) then Korean war which ended up stalemate and still korea 60 yrs later are a force to be rekon with
you ever notice usa goes into countrys of interest thats it remember movie Blackhawk down
and North korea testing nuclear weapons whats has usa done hell if any other country was, they be there usa picks there fights now closely why do you think China's president was just in usa Northkorea an china are allies sure it was to do with that
sad that china dictates now being one of the most powerful countrys and having a interest in usa as for money lent out to them

as of late they got hussain pretty Quick why not binladen ???? something seems pretty weird here
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
LOL the price of commodities is not being increased due to speculation, its rising due to inflation.
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
take they own the native land only given to you one thing usa does do is not fck around back to capitalism they take what they want and dude why is it not to many natives really try to start stuff up cause they know the national guard will come in a clean up end of story like back in the day when natives were in the indangered species list just like the american buffalo almost ran out so did the indian almost
but getting to the indian thats another BS topic there allowed to hunt fish with nets cross borders i see it all the time hey you want
buy cigerattes , fish meat that as a indian there suppose to hunt for them selfs but in essence its pouching

or how bout some more detail they hunte pregnant deer just to gut the unborn inside it to eat
dont tell me otherwise i see it on indian reserves any thing for a bottle hell i saw mooses head cut clean off nothing taken just because someone wanted the head on native land
before making any substantive remarks about this thread, if any, let me just say this:

sentences exist. please use them. there should be a key near the bottom right of your keyboard that allows you to make a 'period'. please take advantage of this wonderful thing.
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
It’s like Neal Boortz likes to say: “Rich people get richer because they keep doing the things that make them rich. Poor people stay poor because they keep doing the things that make them poor.”
neal boortz is a hack.

and he has obviously never heard of the concept of 'the vicious cycle of poverty' or is just willfully ignoring it. so he is either ignorant or willfully ignorant.

class act.
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
before making any substantive remarks about this thread, if any, let me just say this:

sentences exist. please use them. there should be a key near the bottom right of your keyboard that allows you to make a 'period'. please take advantage of this wonderful thing.
There are no periods when the brain suffers from mental diarrhea.
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
There are no periods when the brain suffers from mental diarrhea.
i mean, it's not like i abhor what he is saying, i just really would love to see it broken down into sentences. it's making me lightheaded and dizzy.

woops, nevermind, i just held that hit in too long. but i would still love to see sentences.
 

Timmahh

Well-Known Member
well, if your going to waist the time to type, your sentances should be at least understandable.

i tried to read your last post 15 times, and i think i could understand russian better.

Punctuation IS YOUR FRIEND!
 
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