Socialists and war

[medicineman]

3. Socialists and War

Many people who are anti-war and who are utterly dismayed at the jingoism of the Labour Party leaders believe that pacifism is the best way to prevent war. Many more, who are not pacifists out of principle, will argue that once war starts the best we can hope for is a ceasefire and the opening of negotiations between those in the conflict.
Any socialist will welcome such opposition to war when it comes from workers and students who are sickened by the barbarity of the society in which they live. Such outrage has always been a powerful motivating force in every anti-war movement. We should, however, be much more sceptical of the same sentiments when they tumble from the lips of politicians and trade union leaders.
The great powers do not always oppress others by armed force--sometimes the "peaceful" threat to wreck another nation's economy is enough. We cannot assume that simply because the shooting has stopped the great powers have not resorted to other, more subtle, forms of violence or that the exploitation and oppression in whose name they fight wars is not being continued by other means.
"Peace" has also always been the favourite cry of the politician or union leader who has their back to the wall. Facing defeat, either at home or abroad, the wily warmonger will always try to salvage what they can by becoming a sudden convert to a "just and negotiated peace".
This was just the reaction of many European govemments during the First World War as anti-war sentiment swept through the continent's working classes. It was a reaction mirrored many years later by Richard Nixon during the Vietnam War. Usually such protestations are combined, as in these two cases, with demands that we must continue fighting until the other side agrees to a "just" peace.
But there is a more fundamental reason why socialists reject the pacifist argument. It is because such a strategy leaves the causes of war untouched. So long as we simply aim at putting a halt to the latest barbarity in which our rulers are engaged we will always leave them free to prepare another war. We have seen that such a drive to war is inherent in the way capitalism works.
The history of the 20th century more than corroborates this analysis. The colonial wars of the early years of the century prepared the First World War. The end of that war laid the seeds of the Second World War. The imperialist rivalries between the victors of that war produced the Cold War, the Korean War and the Vietnam War. Now a new world crisis and the break up of the Cold War pattem of imperial competition have given us a Gulf War in which the armies ranged against each other are of Second World War proportions.
Simple calls for peace do not go far enough because they do not address the question of how we get rid of the system which produces war. Also they fail to address the connection between war and the domestic policy of the ruling class. War and oppression abroad always go hand in hand with repression and exploitation at home.

 

[medicineman]

In every war some or all of the following are inflicted on workers: strikes are banned; socialists, anti-war protesters and "aliens" are jailed or interned; taxes are raised and welfare cut; the press is censored; conscription is introduced; wages are lowered and working hours are lengthened; and chauvinism and racism are stoked.
Inevitably all sorts of other struggles intensify in times of war, although the degree to which this happens depends on the scale of the war, the balance of forces between the major classes, the economic condition of particular economies and of the world economy, and so on. Nevertheless, battles over conscription, over the imposition of higher taxes, over attempts to ban strikes or worsen conditions will be intimately connected with a war.
If the peace movement does not reach out to these struggles, if it restricts itself to simple demands for peace and does not broaden the struggle into a class struggle, it will deny itself the best chance of stopping the war and of developing a struggle that can strike the power to wage war from our rulers' hands forever.
This is why socialists are not pacifists. We do not forgo the strike weapon when it will deny our rulers the taxes or wage cuts they need to fight a war. We do not deny ourselves the weapon of the general strike when it will bring down a warmongering government. And we will not renounce a revolution when it would end the senseless slaughter once and for all.
Lenin summarised these arguments during the First World War. "We differ from the pacifists", he wrote, "in that we understand the inevitable connection between wars and the class struggle within a country; we understand that wars cannot be abolished unless classes are abolished and socialism is created; we also differ in that we regard civil wars, ie wars waged by an oppressed class against the oppressor class, by slaves against slaveholders, by serfs against landowners and by wage workers against the bourgeoisie, as fully legitimate, progressive and necessary."
From this analysis Lenin drew the conclusion that the most effective way of fighting against war was to intensify the struggle against your own ruling class. Every demonstration weakened the government's claim that the population backed the war; every strike made it more difficult for the government to conduct the war; every revolt by people in the colonies, like the 1916 Easter Rising in Ireland, was a thorn in the side of the warmongers .
The great German revolutionary Karl Liebknecht, one of the few to stand out against the First World War, encapsulated a similar view in a famous phrase: "The main enemy is at home.S Lenin thought that all socialists should be for the defeat of their own rulers in an imperialist war. German socialists should be for the defeat of the German rulers, French workers for the defeat of the French govemment, British socialists for the defeat of the British and so on. His critics accused him of being illogical. Surely you realise someone has to win the war, they demanded.
Lenin's reply was twofold. First he insisted that unless you are willing to call for the defeat of your own government you will end up denouncing every protest and strike. The right wing will say, and they will be right, that strikes and demonstrations weaken the war effort and therefore court defeat. Unless socialists reply that we are striking and demonstrating precisely because we want to weaken the war effort they will be utterly dumbstruck by our rulers' argument. The right will undoubtedly howl, "But that means we'll lose the war." And we must answer, if it takes the defeat of "our" side to stop the war then that is the lesser evil.
Lenin's second point was that it is only people who have given up any hope that workers can change society who will argue that one ruling class or another must win in the end. He insisted that a war which starts as a war between nations does not have to end that way. The class struggle can develop during the course of the war in such a way that the war is brought to a halt by the struggle between the working class and the various ruling classes of the great powers.
The First World War ended in precisely this way. Revolution swept not only Russia but also Germany. Huge class struggles swept Italy, France and Britain

 

[ViRedd]

"The colonial wars of the early years of the century prepared the First World War. The end of that war laid the seeds of the Second World War. The imperialist rivalries between the victors of that war produced the Cold War, the Korean War and the Vietnam War."

Oh, and here's a few minor things the author missed: Germany was liberated from under the iron hand of Hitler and his SOCIALIST Nazi party. Japan was liberated from under the iron hand of SOCIALIST Imperial Japan. The South Koreans were liberated from the iron hand of the SOCIALIST dictators of North Korea. South Vietnam has been liberated from the SOCIALIST dictators of the north as well. And the Cold War? Are the East Berliners better off today, or were they better off under the iron hand of the SOCIALIST Soviet Union?

Funny how socialists keep missing the totalitarian nature of socialism, isn't it Med?

Vi

 

[medicineman]

Lenin's slogan, "Turn the imperialist war into a civil war", became a reality. So Lenin's call for the defeat of Russia was not "illogical", any more than American writer and revolutionary John Reed's call for the defeat of the United States, Karl Liebknecht's call for the defeat of Germany and British Marxist John MacLean's call for Britain's defeat were "illogical". It was the only means of uniting workers internationally against the war and against all their ruling classes.
Of course, not every war is on the scale of the First World War and therefore not every war creates the conditions for turning a war into a revolution. But the general approach of turning an imperialist war into a class war remains. Whether we talk of a token protest strike or an insurrectionary general strike, the ruling class will always accuse us of damaging the war effort. We can only fight effectively to end war if we answer clearly that we put the interests of our class first, that we see no reason to join in the slaughter of other workers for the sake of the profits of those who oppress us at home.
There is also an important distinction to be made between the two major sorts of war which have taken place in the imperialist era. Firstly there have been wars between major imperialist powers, like the First and Second World Wars. Secondly, there have been wars conducted by the major imperialist powers against national liberation movements or to' conquer other nations whose independence is a threat to the imperial order. A prime example of the second case is the Vietnam War.
These two cases make little difference to the attitude which socialists should take to the great powers. In both cases socialists see the main enemy as their own rulers. But there is a difference in the socialist attitude to, say, the German Kaiser or Hitler on the one hand and Ho Chi Minh on the other. In a war between great powers a call for the defeat of one's own rulers does not mean we hope for the victory of someone else's rulers. "Socialists must take advantage of the struggle between the robbers to overthrow all of themS, Lenin argued. We realise that for the working class to be victorious over all the robbers we have to start at the struggle where we are, in our own country, by making our own rulers the main enemy, regardless of the military consequences.
Where imperialist powers are involved in colonial wars we hope that they are beaten. Such reverses can only weaken the ruling class at home and therefore increase the possibilities of ending the war and of securing gains for the working class at home. During the Vietnam War every Vietnamese National Liberation Front victory brought the war nearer its end and made the task of the peace movement easier. Every NLF victory made it harder for Nixon to get away with repression of the anti-war movement or the student protests or the struggles for black liberation. In the end the victory of the NLF seriously weakened US imperialism for 20 years. Their sacrifices saved tens of thousands of lives in other Third World countries like Nicaragua or Iran where, despite all the CIA subversion, the US no longer felt confident enough to fight an open war.
As Lenin put it, those who wish to see a pure revolution without nationalist revolts in oppressed countries, will never live to see a revolution. Such revolts can manifest all sorts of religious and nationalist prejudices. But Lenin argued the political complexion of the leaders of small nations--be they nationalist, fundamentalist, dictators or democrats--should not determine whether socialists in the major imperialist countries support them against imperialism. It is enough that a victory for imperialism would set back the cause of oppressed nations everywhere for socialists to commit themselves to the side of national liberation.
Whether the leaders of such nations are despots, or merely murderous "democrats" in the George Bush mould, it is the task of the working class of these nations to settle accounts with them. Any interference by the imperialist powers would only be to secure profits and strategic interests.
But socialists should not feel their opposition to imperialism obliges them to stand mute as the working class and oppressed battle against the ruling classes of the Third World. We should support their struggles and urge that, were socialists to lead those countries against imperialism, the fight would be all the more effective. We must not lend the leaders of nationalist struggles "a communist colouration", Lenin warned.
So, though socialists were as opposed to US imperialism as Ho Chi Minh, they were unsparing in their criticism when he murdered Vietnamese Trotskyists and when his repressive regime weakened the war against the US by attacking workers' living standards and right to organise.
Similarly, our wish for the defeat of the forces of imperialism in the Gulf does not mean keeping quiet about Saddam Hussein's repression of workers and refusal to grant independence to the Kurdish minority. To do otherwise might have strengthened Saddam's government while weakening the Iraqi workers' ability to fight the imperialist coalition ranged against them.
In fact this kind of criticism is even more justified in the case of Saddam Hussein than in that of Ho Chi Minh. The latter was at least a consistent antiimperialist. But Saddam fought an imperialist war on the United StatesU behalf against Iran in the 1980s. He would have come to such an arrangement again if the US let him.
George Bush went to war wanting the defeat of Saddam Hussein and the Iraqi working class. He knew any US puppet that replaced Saddam would be no kinder to the Iraqi people than Saddam was when the US supported him. For his part, Saddam Hussein wanted the defeat of the imperialist forces. But he also wanted the defeat of the Iraqi working class. He was against the US in spite of his politics, not because of them.
Socialists want the defeat of imperialism and the victory of the Iraqi working class. We oppose our own imperialist govemments, hoping for their defeat. If defeat came at Saddam's hands we would still welcome it. But we hope for it at the hands of Iraqi workers who could both crush Saddam and prove far better opponents of imperialism .

 

[ViRedd]

"So Lenin's call for the defeat of Russia was not "illogical", any more than American writer and revolutionary John Reed's call for the defeat of the United States..."

And, what is missing here? Oh, I know ... under our constitutional guarantees, John Reed was entirely welcome to use his rights to freedom of speech to speak out against our government. BUT ... when he actually traveled to a foreign country and took up arms to fight AGAINST his country, he lost his constitutional rights ... and is rightly considered a traitor who deserves to be hung. And acting as a non-uniformed combatant, he waived any rights he may have had under the Geneva Conventions as well.

Vi

 

[medicineman]

"So Lenin's call for the defeat of Russia was not "illogical", any more than American writer and revolutionary John Reed's call for the defeat of the United States..."

And, what is missing here? Oh, I know ... under our constitutional guarantees, John Reed was entirely welcome to use his rights to freedom of speech to speak out against our government. BUT ... when he actually traveled to a foreign country and took up arms to fight AGAINST his country, he lost his constitutional rights ... and is rightly considered a traitor who deserves to be hung. And acting as a non-uniformed combatant, he waived any rights he may have had under the Geneva Conventions as well.

Vi

Typical, you pick one sentence out of context and rant on it. I believe you are actually going Mad. There is no rationality to your posts anymore. Mellow out, I'll see you get a fair shake after the revolution, probably at the end of a rope`~LOL~

 

[ViRedd]

So, instead of debating what I said, you just want to pull out the rope and hang the opposition? You are so very typical of a "peaceful" Marxist, Med.

Vi

 

[medicineman]

So, instead of debating what I said, you just want to pull out the rope and hang the opposition? You are so very typical of a "peaceful" Marxist, Med.

Vi

How do you debate nonsense? you pick one sentence out of an article and oppose it and expect me to waste my time debating it when you haven't read the entire article and come up with an original thought? Get real.

 

[7xstall]

ok, so i just read this and it looks like the only way to win a war is to lose it. you should turn against your country to make it fail, if you can, by protests and whatnot. this benefits the "workers" most.

"We realise that for the working class to be victorious over all the robbers we have to start at the struggle where we are, in our own country, by making our own rulers the main enemy, regardless of the military consequences."

so we should not have principals. we should not fight because of people threatening or killing the workers. we should be passive aggressive pioneers and deliver the world into a higher state...the socialist state.

why don't the other leftist come out of the closet and be proud socialists with you med?

 

[medicineman]

ok, so i just read this and it looks like the only way to win a war is to lose it. you should turn against your country to make it fail, if you can, by protests and whatnot. this benefits the "workers" most.

"We realise that for the working class to be victorious over all the robbers we have to start at the struggle where we are, in our own country, by making our own rulers the main enemy, regardless of the military consequences."

so we should not have principals. we should not fight because of people threatening or killing the workers. we should be passive aggressive pioneers and deliver the world into a higher state...the socialist state.

why don't the other leftist come out of the closet and be proud socialists with you med?

I don't think Man is ready to stop being greedy yet. Even a poor man will trample over other poor people to get to a dollar. It's the nature of MAN. Lenin said it will take 5 hundred years for man to become intelligent enough to accept socialism, I think he was right. as long as one man wants what some other man has, it will never work. It's all about the Heart of man and at this time, mans heart is in a word, Fucked! Think about this: In your heart you would give anyone what you had if they needed it, that is when socialism will work, not untill! But someone has to present the Idea of people sharing, the blessed giving some of their stash away, thats all I'm doing as I know Man is not ready yet. I'll never see it and neither will you but someday if we haven't destroyed ourselves and we tire of hatred and war, who knows, it's possible.

 

[7xstall]

that's also why it will never work, you can't force people to give a shit. you take someone like me who is driven and determined, optimistic, and you tell me i'm on the same playing field as some lazy, half-ass moron i'm gonna get upset.. it's only a matter of time before i quit trying.

i like high quality people and unless you can engineer these people into existence this system of socialism sucks for people like me.

 

[medicineman]

that's also why it will never work, you can't force people to give a shit. you take someone like me who is driven and determined, optimistic, and you tell me i'm on the same playing field as some lazy, half-ass moron i'm gonna get upset.. it's only a matter of time before i quit trying.

i like high quality people and unless you can engineer these people into existence this system of socialism sucks for people like me.

So what you are really saying is: You are better than most people, A higher class of Human, an elite, a royal. My friend this is only in your mind. you are the same human as the wino in the ditch, only circumstance has put you where you are. "There but for the grace of God go I"! You need to stamp this in your mind and thank God every day that you didn't end up in that ditch, or in Iraq or a myriad of other circumstances. Touting your success is a bragarts way and only you can appreciate that. The rest of us will see you for what you really are.

 

[7xstall]

what i said is that i am driven, determined and optimistic. i said that people who are lazy, half ass morons are not like me. i have worked with them, i know they exist...i know were are not the same.

in the human scope of things we are not the same, in the spiritual plane we are, but because i put my butt in gear i am not like them. if you knew where i've been you would never again say that "circumstance" put anyone where they are now. i am thankful, far more than you know, for what i have been given but it's mine because i asked and then i did what it takes to earn it.

see me for what i am med, see me as a man who takes myself to a higher level and doesn't wait for someone else to do it for me.

 

[medicineman]

what i said is that i am driven, determined and optimistic. i said that people who are lazy, half ass morons are not like me. i have worked with them, i know they exist...i know were are not the same.

in the human scope of things we are not the same, in the spiritual plane we are, but because i put my butt in gear i am not like them. if you knew where i've been you would never again say that "circumstance" put anyone where they are now. i am thankful, far more than you know, for what i have been given but it's mine because i asked and then i did what it takes to earn it.

see me for what i am med, see me as a man who takes myself to a higher level and doesn't wait for someone else to do it for me.

As long as you remember that it is not all you, then I will respect your drive and ambition. As long as you don't look down on people that haven't been given your gifts, I'll respect you. Hey I worked Hard all my life and didn't have the gift of success. As Vi says, It's not all hard work. Some people for whatever reason have that gift of success, in my case it was lacking a little. I'm fine with where I ended up, I could have gone into management and ended up somewhere in the kissass world of middle management, but opted out. My feel for the common man led me down a different path. I am just a worker bee, and so glad to be retired!

 

[7xstall]

i know it's not all me, it's very little me, but the fact that i look outside me is me!! i put the faith in, same as work sometimes!

hey, i'm with you, i WILL NOT, ever, put money in front of my family and i know for a fact that cuts back a little, or perhaps just slows down my upwardness but i'm fine with it.. we all get to a certain point in life where we get honest and we know what we really "want".

just like you could have gone and done the kissass thing, maybe you would have been promoted to who knows what, you opted out... there are plenty of people who opt out of so much, even just trying a little, they are the ones i can't put myself on the same field with.

 

[medicineman]

i know it's not all me, it's very little me, but the fact that i look outside me is me!! i put the faith in, same as work sometimes!

hey, i'm with you, i WILL NOT, ever, put money in front of my family and i know for a fact that cuts back a little, or perhaps just slows down my upwardness but i'm fine with it.. we all get to a certain point in life where we get honest and we know what we really "want".

just like you could have gone and done the kissass thing, maybe you would have been promoted to who knows what, you opted out... there are plenty of people who opt out of so much, even just trying a little, they are the ones i can't put myself on the same field with.

OK, I'll respect your course in life and God bless. I'm not opposed to success, just greed. Some people like the Rockefellers started out with greed and mellowed into benevolent benefactors to the arts and artists and a whole lot more. So sometimes humanity wins out. This new Breed of CEOs don't quite get it!

 

[7xstall]

integrity is lacking in our society, people care more about situational ethics than true, deep convictions. there was a recent poll of MBA students, i believe it was 80% of them admited cheating on an important exam at some point in their college careers. very sad.

while we used to look to business leaders for inspiration and honesty we now have to make sure they aren't robbing us blind.

it's a culture break down and we have to let them know we reject this.

 

[medicineman]

integrity is lacking in our society, people care more about situational ethics than true, deep convictions. there was a recent poll of MBA students, i believe it was 80% of them admited cheating on an important exam at some point in their college careers. very sad.

while we used to look to business leaders for inspiration and honesty we now have to make sure they aren't robbing us blind.

it's a culture break down and we have to let them know we reject this.

Amen, I'm glad you see this, I was assuming like Vi you would argue this and say something like, "who am I to say how much someone is worth", but you see the greed thing, good for you. Take someone like Bill Gates, the richest man in the world. He is doing a whole lot of good with his money. He gives away more than the highest paid executives in the world make. If all the top earners were to follow gates' path, the world would be a much better place. I have no problem with Bill Gates and his wealth as he does a lot if humanitarian things with it. I say Kudos to him, yeah he still has an obscene amount of personal wealth, but I have no doubt he will do many good things before it is his time to pass to the next world.

 

[7xstall]

well, i won't say those guys shouldn't get those enourmous salaries, the boards voted and gave it to them... what i will say is that we need to change the tide. we need to instill responsibility in ourselves and everyone else.

 

[medicineman]

well, i won't say those guys shouldn't get those enourmous salaries, the boards voted and gave it to them... what i will say is that we need to change the tide. we need to instill responsibility in ourselves and everyone else.

The Boards and the CEOs are on the same page, what about other pages in the book of corporate shenanigans, where they ship the white collar jobs to India and the blue collar jobs to Bangladesh, and lay off thousands of American workers to increase the all important bottom line. Corporations are inherently Evil, they exist for one purpose only with all other parameters being trampled on to achieve the pot of Gold called the Bottom line. Environment, workers, suppliers, all fall victim to this giant money maker, Profit is OK but excessive greed is not! Who is policing the corporations? It used to be the government, but with Bushco in charge all the police are gone.