]you have taken every point so literally i cant stop laughing
this could take forever .. ahhh never mind i think i am going to have to take a different tact here
you cant compare athletes to weed , hence my wine and apples examples making light of your example ... unless you are talking about your favorite athlete..
You can compare the two in the way I said, by charting what they have done over time, how long they remain on top or among those at the top.
i was using the example of wine to point out "snobbishness" for example those who chase so called elite strains/pheno's are nothing more than snobs acting "elite"
i was using the example of apples to illustrate how silly i think the term "elite" is when used with weed strains .. i was sure you would pick up on that ..but sadly you didn't
Your phraseology did not appear to be anything other than examples of how you believe that the term elite does not actually apply to anything because individuals have personal likes and dislikes and someone will always disagree with something being called elite.
That is why I said you stick with a vague very broadly used word as a descriptive term and until there is an actual accepted definition for the term elite no strain could be called elite and most strains could be called elite, because the way you see it elite is in the eye of the beholder, in the mind of each individual.
you even went on to mention cooking apples and eating apples and such .. your apple hypothesis was unwarranted but amusing so thanks for that
What I did was point out that your apples example was not an apples to apples example. Evidently you did not care much for that being clearly pointed out.
it would seem that you want to convince me that white widow is a better stain than i think it is.. perhaps you could just accept that sometimes other people have different opinions than you do
No ... you totally misunderstood me, or missed something earlier on, or lack reading comprehension skills or suffer from short term memory problems. I said I only used it as an example because of how it had such a major impact on the cannabis world and how it is still one of the top sellers today, some 15 or 16 years since it's initial release, that it has withstood the test of time in a way that almost no other strain has equaled. I made no comment on if I personally would call it elite or not. I only said that if there is a strain out there where a valid argument could be made for it being elite it would be the original White Widow and that is because it was not a flash in the pan loved this year but forgotten about the next year strain like so many that people have over the years considered to be wunder-weed.
you have spoken a great deal about white widow again
personally i would put skunk1 and northern lights above white widow simply because its all a personal preference to me, both those strains have had a larger impact for me when i first started growing,
I explained why I selected the original White Widow for an example. The same argument cannot be made for either Skunk #1 or Northern Lights. Just like the original White Widow both Skunk #1 and Northern Lights were big deals when released and just like the original White Widow many breeders created their own version of Skunk #1 and Northern Lights. Most breeders offered both. Now you only see a few offering a Skunk #1 and most who offered a version of Northern Lights have dropped it from their line. There are still some but no where near as many as there were a handful or so years back. Why do you think that might be but at the same time a version of White Widow can be found from far more breeders plus the original, Black Widow, is difficult to get your hands on because it is sold out so much of the time at every seedbank that handles it?
i have always thought white widow was overrated with a pretty bland taste but thats just my opinion
From day one the one big knock on the original White Widow was the flavor, the taste. That is why in the following years there were so many crosses made with it by different breeders attempting to retain all it's good traits but give it a good flavor/taste.
But it is becoming more and more apparent that you seem to believe that you are the only one who is qualified to say if a strain is elite or not or if such a thing as an elite strain actually exists since so much of what you said is in your own words, based on your opinion.
Again I can go back to the point that until there is an actual definition, an actual definition of what a strain would have to be to be elite it will always remain a case of personal opinion and that being the case there is no reason why your personal opinion should carry any more weight or be any more accurate than anyone else's personal opinion.
all these great things you say white widow did in Holland i must of missed that but then again having little interest in white widow i could of easy overlooked it .
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what specific things did white widow do? did it win some trophys ?
Yep, it did, and it did it long before the HTCC turned into a dog and pony show that totally lacked legitimacy. Add that to how some 15 to 16 years later it, in both the original version and in other breeder's knockoff versions, the strain name is still one of the top sellers, the top seller for some breeders, combined that somewhat says something impressive about it regardless of your personal opinion or mine.
white widow is certainly NOT a top selling strain now
That is incorrect. While I normally purchase from Attitude, Hemp Depot or Hemcy I do check out numerous seedbanks just for the heck of it and some list their top sellers and White Widow is often times their number one seller and it is often in the top 5 of their best sellers. Also if you watch threads here and on other similar sites, like I do, you see a lot of threads about White Widow, far more than many other strains.
in fact have a quick look on attitude top 8 selling strains, white widow is not there ..
but i do see a skunk1 cheese cross and several strains from "lower echelon" barney LOL
That is one seedbank, only one. As for Barney's sales, are you saying that higher sales numbers equates to a product being of higher quality? In Feb. 2011 GM sold 207,028 vehicles. Ford sold 156,232 vehicles. Chrysler sold 95,102 vehicles. Mercedes Benz sold 16,176 vehicles. BMW sold 16,416 vehicles. So does that make GM, Ford and Chrysler cars of higher quality than Mercedes Benz and BMW, or are GM, Ford and Chrysler vehicles just more affordable to a much larger number of people than Mercedes Benz and BMW's are?
Also when it comes to Barney's Farm with Tangerine Dream having won the dog and pony show that the HTCC has turned into, and there still enough people who actually believe that winning a Cup today actually means something, it has boosted their sales. It is partially a case of perception and also of price.
white widow has not had such an effect here in the UK while it have some popularity
Is the UK the largest market for seed purchases and is the UK they yardstick of scale that is used to judge or rate or rank strains?
northern lights was revolutionary here for commercial growers
As it was in many parts of the world, in years past. But then it is also common knowledge that the UK was behind much of the world when it came to quality of commercial strains for a long time, and for all I know it still is. People were going all Lady Gaga over Skunk strains there when Skunk strains were old hat and seen as of lesser quality in some other parts of the world.
skunk1 cheese pheno is more sort after
That really didn't say anything.
blueberry still is a much more popular strain here also
Blueberry is still fairly popular in some areas of the U.S. but in different areas it has become seen as yesterday's news, as being old hat and while good, not as good or as desired as some other strains.
i do not know why you focus on what happens in Holland so much what happens in Holland does not account for the rest of the world
But you think that what happens in the UK says more?
At the same time you keep going back to Barney's Farm and the only reason it's sales are up is Tangerine Dream winning in Holland, winning a Cup.
What I mention about Cup wins is from the past when the competition had some legitimacy to it but you rely on it now, by returning to Barney's Farm, even though it has lost all it's legitimacy among anyone other then newbies and the uninformed. I find it odd that you do that, that you use it in a round about way but think it is wrong to use it in a direct way.
at the moment i am growing Canadian strains using a UK discovered hydro method NFT, using a UK made food vita-link .. its not all just about Holland !
Goody gumdrops ... color me impressed.
mr nice's most expensive line is still a skunk northern light haze line not white widow.
I guess that depends on where you checked the pricing and what the actual strain you were referring to. If what you were talking about was Mr Nice Seeds NL5/Haze x Skunk using U.S. pricing, U.S. dollars, Attitude is selling it for $97.58. Black Widow has the exact same price. Now Super Silver Haze and Mango Haze and Neville's Haze are all priced at $165.90 and a handful others are priced higher than the $97.58 but less than the $165.90.
So what is the name of the Mr. Nice Skunk - Northern Lights - Haze strain that I must have missed and must be priced higher than $165.90, or that Attitude does not stock but costs more than $165.90 through some other seed vendor?
i will try to remember to announce my humour and any points that are not to be taken "literally" as to avoid further confusion
That would be helpful since you do not make it at all clear that you are making a weak attempt at humor and instead at making actual comparisons or actual statements.
Jack herer also said to be part of a similar line and no white widow
I guess that depends on what is enough for you to consider something similar. You like SeedFinder, as do I, but just because it says countries name for where original strains used in crosses came from does not mean they will be all that similar. You do realize that there can be, and normally are, many different strains found in each country where the old original landrace strains used in different crosses came from and they can be very different from one to another, don't you? So is nation of origin alone enough for you to consider each and every strain from that country to be similar?
although we do have sharkshock
That's wonderful news .... but what does it mean other than it being a Black Widow x Skunk #1 cross? What was your point?
seedfinder lists sensi seeds skunk1 as having 67 direct strains crossed with it
now even if the sensi's version is not the original skunk1 it still seems to have been used a great deal more for breeding than the 13 direct strains from black widow .. now that could be down to time frame also .. although most of the white widow crosses are by mr nice himself
skunk1 over the years has been used by many breeders to improve lines because of its true breeding nature
Should I take it that your point is that because is strains lineage are traced back Skunk #1 has been used in so many crosses than Black Widow that Skunk #1 is better or would qualify more for the term elite?
If that is your point than Mexican would be even more worthy of elite status since you will find Mexican in most strains that are not predominantly indica. Sure it notmally only mentions "Mexican" and not an actual strain name but then not all Mexican strains had unique names, not all were like Acapulco Gold or Highland Oaxaca Gold, but it is found in many many strains and if you want to claim better or elite by tracing lineage you should go all the way back to the beginning of each line rather than stop at some point in the lineage that best fits a point you hope to make.
i did point out that skunk1 was one of the first
i was careful to include "one of" maybe not the first, although many state that it is the first modem sat/indica hybrid .. who are we to believe ?
perhaps you missed the "one of" part of my comment
You did clearly say; "
skunk #1 said to be the first or one of the first sat/ind hybrid" but that was somewhat misleading since there were others, many others, a decade or two previous to Skunk #1's creation. But it did fit your need so of course you used it. For someone who said; "
i do not know why you focus on what happens in Holland so much what happens in Holland does not account for the rest of the world" you sure seem to want to ignore everything that happened previous to the beginnings of 'The Dutch Masters."
skunk1 was indeed around in the 70s according to all that i have read, BUT i was not around then so i cant state that as fact
It was a regional strain created in 1978 but it was the early 80's before it made it's way to British Colombia and then to Holland and then world release.
now the guy from THseeds claims he made the original bubblegum that he then gave to serious seeds. . he also stated he started his version from 1 rejuvenated plant after his grow rooms were broken into
Unless the guy a TH Seeds is pretty old and from Evansville Indiana he's lying if he's saying he created the original Bubble Gum. Possibly he was part of the original Dutch version release and he realizes that so few people today realize how a number of famous strains were created in the U.S. and Canada well before 'The Dutch Masters' got their hands on them or on a male or a female and then attempted to duplicate the original as close as possible and then attempted to lay claim to what they made being the original.
When it comes to honesty you cannot believe some of what some breeders claim. In a PM I recently received was a link to a Green House Seeds video where Arjan flat out said that he himself created the original White Widow, not that it was originally released under the Green House Seeds name but that he himself, personally, created the original White Widow. Could more than 1% or 2% of the growing community not know that was a lie? It didn't keep him from making the claim though?
the bubblegum weed you smoked in the 70s could of been anything, i mean i have a bubblegum flavor Jamaican .. so which bubblegum do you mean ? was your bubble gum from a higher echelon breeder than the current thseeds and serious seeds offerings ?
Nope ... do some real research and you will find that the original Bubble Gum strain was created in Evansville Indiana and then made it's way to New England and then finally to Holland, a fair number of years after it was first created in Evansville Indiana.
you stated in a previous post that barneys farm are not one of the "upper echelon" breeders .. i would be interested to know how you reached that conclusion, and who in your opinion are the "upper echelon" breeders .. please list them
When I read or hear of enough people talking up a strain or strains I will from time to time deviate from what I normally grow and try one or three of the 'flavor of the month' strains and I have tried several Barney's Farm strains and was never impressed. The same has been the results of friends of mine who like me have grow for more decades than many people here have grown in numbers of years and in some cases in numbers of grows/crops. It was enough for me, and most of my older growing friends, to learn our lesson and not waste any more money on Barney's Farm gear.
Who would I say are the better breeding companies? Mr. Nice Seeds, Reeferman Seeds, Serious Seeds, Sensi Seeds is not all it once was but it is still more reliable and of higher quality than most, for years I had great luck with Sagarmatha Seeds but I have read a few less than wonderful news about them lately so I am not sure if I could still include them, but for years I could and did. While Sannie's Seeds doesn't offer strains that I like the most, Sannie's is high quality. De Sjamaan is high quality. There are also a good number more that while I might not call them top breeders I would rank well above Barney's Farm.
this is all starting to remind me when people debate the Windows vs Linux thing < literal point to be taken seriously
or when people debate over what is the best anti virus program there is no definitive answer
it really is all down to opinions.
That was my point about you getting your thong in a twist over people calling some strains elite strains. There is no set accurate accepted by all, or at least accepted by most, definition and lacking that it comes down to personal preference, what someone likes the most, and while I am not saying I agree with some of what people have claimed to be elite strains since it is and likely will remain a matter of personal preference, your personal preference carries no more weight and is no more accurate than anyone else's personal preference and you just need to accept that and give up your bitching about someone or another claiming some strain or another to be an elite strain.
If an actual definition ever exists and someone goes beyond it, steps outside of it's bounds, and claims something to be elite that clearly does not fit the accepted definition, well then there would be cause and reason for you to draw attention to it and say they are wrong. But you are only doing it now because your personal preference is different than that of someone else's and that makes you disagree with them and you give more weight and accuracy to your personal preference than to theirs.
Maybe you do not believe such a thing as an elite strain exists, which regardless of my using White Widow as an example I would say that what few strains that I might call elite either no longer exist or are impossible for the average person to obtain, so I don't know if I would call any strain that can be purchased by the masses an elite strain. But even if both of us do not believe elite strains exist, others do, and since our beliefs are based on our own preferences and opinions what we may believe is no more valid than what they believe. If they are elite to them, then they are elite. If one day a set accepted definition is created they likely will find that they were wrong, but until then it falls under the category of reality is whatever someone perceives it to be.
you judge white widow to be more important because of the criteria you are judging by maybe different to the criteria i am judging by
you think white widow is great .. i do not
Quote me where I said that I believe White Widow is; "great" or "elite," go ahead and do it if you can.
You evidently missed where I said, more than once, that I used it as an example of a strain that if elite strains do exist it would be one that maybe the very best case could be made for it being elite. That is all I said. It was an example of a stain that had a major impact on the cannabis world and some 15 to 16 years later is still a top seller, regardless of your inaccurate claim saying it is not, and that at least in it's original form, and maybe one knockoff, is still very high quality when compared to other new strains.
Maybe it bothers you that between the original White Widow and other versions using the name and or the original entered by someone other than Shanitbaba, there have been 13 Cups won over the years, not all 1st place of course, and you cannot say the same about Skunk #1.
As for you're having said; "
you judge white widow to be more important because of the criteria you are judging by maybe different to the criteria i am judging by." Again that is not at all anything I have ever said. It is another case of you putting words in my mouth. I never said any strain was; "more important" than another, not so much as one single time did I say that the original White Widow or any other strain has been; 'more important" than any other strain. I simply used it's impact and longevity as in example of how if a strain could claim elite status that it would be one a valid argument could be made for.
Was that really all that confusing to you that you were unable to understand such a simple concept? Or was it crystal clear to you so the only way you could attempt to make a case for your beloved Skunk #1 was to put words in my mouth and claim I said things I never said?
you think some breeders have "elites" i do not
I wish you would not put words in my mouth, like you did by saying I think White Widow is; "great" and now saying I believe some breeders to be; "elites." I made neither claim. I do know that some breeders are without question better than others, but that is not the same thing as my proclaiming them to be the; "elites" of breeding
Evidently since you have been unable to refute what I have said you have been forced to spin what I have actually said and attempt to put words in my mouth so you could then have something to argue against that you believe would let you make a valid argument.
you think skunk1 is less important than i do
i think that about sums it all up
I thought this exchange was about how you felt people were wrong and being "snobbish" by claiming some strains to be elite strains and not about what sort of impact Skunk #1 has had. Oddly though you are being very; "snobbish" about Skunk #1.
I find what you said a bit odd and rather confusing since you said; "
skunk #1 said to be the first or one of the first sat/ind hybrid .. also known as very true breeding years ago virtualy everything was crossed with skunk#1 , there are many more crosses of skunk1 than white widow, but who wants to smoke skunk1 these days ?" If few want to smoke Skunk #1 these days but many still want, and do, smoke White Widow, both the original and about every knockoff version of it that is available, what does that tell you about Black Widow and the White Widow knockoffs?
If you had ever asked if I felt that Skunk #1 played a key role in many of the more modern strains I would have flat out said yes. But then if you want to talk lineage I would have to add that Skunk #1 would not have been the hit that it was or used in the crosses it was used in if not for the Mexican strain in it or the Colombian strain in it or the Afghani strain in it ..... so each of them were of utmost importance to create what you believe to have been some strain of strains and minus any one of them or had some other strain or strains been used in the combination the name Skunk #1 might not be remembered by anyone today ...... so if you want to talk about the importance of lineage in modern crosses you should not stop tracing back just until you get to something you personally revere and instead go all the way back to the original roots.
For someone who does not seem to believe in elite strains you seem to be hinting that Skunk #1 is, or at least was, an elite strain. Maybe that is what has your nickers in a twist, that you see Skunk #1 as an elite strain but few if any others do so because they will not recognize what you see as being elite you refuse to accept what they consider to be elite as being elite.
You talk as if I have said terrible things about Skunk #1 and like I said it was not anything special or not important in the creation of other strains. How did you manage to come up with that sort of belief? Did you miss the following bits that were in response to when you asked who wants to smoke Skunk #1 today?
"I wouldn't call Skunk #1 an elite strain, but I would call it a classic of sorts, something of a ground breaker or game changer for the modern era.
Who would want to smoke Skunk #1? Well just like your position of elite status being nothing more than a matter of opinion the same would apply to who would want to smoke Skunk #1. It is still a good strain and it is a great strain for a new grower to grow because it has always been very easy to grow and very forgiving, so for some it could be the very best strain to grow.
When it comes to smoking it, I would rather smoke it than many more modern strains,"
At a time Skunk #1 was tops and then it went on to be used in many newer crosses where some of them turned out to be very popular strains, though not all did, and it, including the landrace strains it was made up of, played a key role in the creation of many strains. But what in the wide, wide world of sports does that have to do with your problem of some people claiming certain strains to be elite strains?
Is it that most, if not all, other crosses have not been used in the creation of as many crosses as Skunk #1 has so they do not deserve to be called elite due to that and that alone, even if in some cases they have not bee around enough years to have been used in many other crosses or in some case not yet used in any other crosses?
I am unsure how things went from do elite strains exist or are people who claim some strains to be elite; "snobbish" and if elite strains do exist would a valid case be able to be made for the original White Widow to the impact and importance that Skunk #1 has had on breeding over the years.
I have had people run around and run from things I have said before but you did a Road Runner act like I have ever seen before. If you keep this up I'm going to have to tie myself to an Acme rocket to be able to have a chance of keeping up with you.
