Wisconsin Revolt

[MrDank007]

Unemployment is only high for those without an education. Right now the unemployment rate for those with a bachelor's degree or higher is around 5%.
Unemployment for those with a high school diploma or less is around 14%

I'm sorry, but there just isn't 50,000 qualified, highly motivated, and well trained teachers sitting on the sideline, just waiting to replace the lowest performing teachers.
There just isn't. You can't just fire 8% of the teacher workforce and expect a "good" teacher to climb out of the woodworks to replace every one of them.

And the highly qualified, smart, well trained, motivated teachers who AREN'T teaching right now, are USUALLY pursuing other careers because teacher compensation is too low, that's why they got out that line of work in the first place. They aren't waiting for a spot to open for them, they don't want back in.

This is incorrect. The economy sucks. People are flocking to be teachers. Hundreds of resumes are sitting on desks right now. I know a couple of teachers and from what I hear, competition to become one is at it's highest.

 

[Mike Young]

I think you might be thinking of toddler/preschool teachers. Which are babysitters. There's quite the demand, indeed.

 

[NoDrama]

NoDrama, are you SERIOUSLY fucking arguing that teachers are OVERCOMPENSATED? Are you FUCKING RETARDED?

Teachers have to go through as much or more schooling as other professionals which make much more than they do,
not to mention the super HIGH stress levels teachers have to endure day in and day out. And teachers don't only work in the classroom
they work from home almost every night, and over the summer they have to make new lesson plans, go to seminars, take college courses
to keep them up to date or earn new degrees so they can be better teachers.

Good teachers work YEAR ROUND but only get paid for 3/4 of it.

Plus, teachers are constantly forced to buy school supplies with money out of their own pockets because the schools are so underfunded. And they
don't work for 3/4 of the year, they get MONTH off in the summer, thats it, the last and first day of school for students are NOT the last and first
day of school for teachers. How is that any different than the 4+ weeks paid vacation every other professional gets? Trust me, thanksgiving and winter breaks aren't breaks for teachers.

And how did you come up with that 105k number? I would REALLY love for you to break that down for me. Because it seems to me like you just pulled it out of your ass.

What kind of ass-backwards world view do you have, that you think the people responsible for educating and training the next generation of Americans should be on the bottom of the payscale. Teachers have the MOST IMPORTANT JOB IN THE WORLD, without teachers we would have NO FUTURE, you can't say that about ANY other single profession. Teachers should be at the TOP of the payscale.

And you talk about falling marks for students....well maybe if teachers were better compensated we could attract better ones...

How do you expect to improve the education system if teachers are paid so low the only people who would even consider going into teaching are either, stupid, lazy, or pedophiles.

The only way to improve the education system is to INCREASE teacher compensation so we can get TRUE educational professionals in those classrooms.

Just look at the difference in pay between a college professor and a high school teacher...

Actually my point was that teachers aren't UNDER compensated and do not need more money. They get paid just fine. And 20 years is not a whole lot of time to spend in one career to be able to collect a retirement. You could easily go work another 20 years at the Post Office and get 2 retirements by the time you get to collect SS. Talk about well funded.

So now your saying that Teachers spend as much time in school as say a brain surgeon eh? Sure you aren't the one with limited mental capacity? Takes 4 years to get a degree to teach. How did I come up with 105K? well 51K for 9 months work is the same as $5,666 per month. so add 16,998 to 51k and you get 68K for a 12 month job, add in the value of all those tax payer funded benefits and you get 34K for that, add 34K to 68K and you get 102K, now extrapolate that as the average and you can easily see them getting total compensation over 105K.

Teachers don't have the most important job in the world, parents do.

Most home-schooled children run circles around public educated kids when it comes to knowledge. No one pays those parents to teach, and those parents still pay property tax so your kid can get a free shitty education.

If money is the answer then how come with the 300% increase in Government funding we have slipped 38 spots in world standing? The opposite of what you preach makes much more sense.

College Professors teach adults skills they need to know to survive in a area of specialization. Public schooling is 70% indoctrination , 20% learning and 10% playing.

You want to improve education? Get people who give a shit to do the teaching. Also we could do plenty about getting rid of no child left behind, that's just a farcical way of passing kids through the grades and graduating them even though they are illiterate.

One of my neighbors is a Elementary school teacher and is one of our very good friends. I almost married a High School teacher.

 

[mindphuk]

Interesting. I have degrees in biology and medicine and cannot get a job teaching basic science because I don't have a stupid teaching degree yet I am qualified to teach college students. You want better quality teachers? Remove some of the restrictions on people that actually want to teach but did not waste time at the university level learning 'education.'

 

[Mike Young]

Teachers can opt to have money set aside from their 9 month salaries to compensate for the 3 months off. They aren't paid for an extra 3 months, plain & simple.

 

[NoDrama]

Unemployment is only high for those without an education. Right now the unemployment rate for those with a bachelor's degree or higher is around 5%.
Unemployment for those with a high school diploma or less is around 14%

I'm sorry, but there just isn't 50,000 qualified, highly motivated, and well trained teachers sitting on the sideline, just waiting to replace the lowest performing teachers.
There just isn't. You can't just fire 8% of the teacher workforce and expect a "good" teacher to climb out of the woodworks to replace every one of them.

And the highly qualified, smart, well trained, motivated teachers who AREN'T teaching right now, are USUALLY pursuing other careers because teacher compensation is too low, that's why they got out that line of work in the first place. They aren't waiting for a spot to open for them, they don't want back in.

Did you know that the Unemployment levels of those 75+ years old is 94%? Did you know that unemployment levels for 12 year olds is 100%? If you aren't looking for real unemployment levels you can get statistics to say anything. Did you know that 64% of Americans are unemployed? Its true, 330 million Americans, only 103 million are working full time. Think overall unemployment nationwide is really 9.4%? More like 22%, but the lies sure are worth believing aren't they?

 

[Chad Sexington]

Interesting. I have degrees in biology and medicine and cannot get a job teaching basic science because I don't have a stupid teaching degree yet I am qualified to teach college students. You want better quality teachers? Remove some of the restrictions on people that actually want to teach but did not waste time at the university level learning 'education.'

How does removing the requirement to have a degree in education make better teachers?

 

[Mike Young]

Did you know that the Unemployment levels of those 75+ years old is 94%? Did you know that unemployment levels for 12 year olds is 100%? If you aren't looking for real unemployment levels you can get statistics to say anything. Did you know that 64% of Americans are unemployed? Its true, 330 million Americans, only 103 million are working full time. Think overall unemployment nationwide is really 9.4%? More like 22%, but the lies sure are worth believing aren't they?

Can't argue with that. As stated by Robroy earlier in this post... Move to canada and grow weed.

 

[NoDrama]

Interesting. I have degrees in biology and medicine and cannot get a job teaching basic science because I don't have a stupid teaching degree yet I am qualified to teach college students. You want better quality teachers? Remove some of the restrictions on people that actually want to teach but did not waste time at the university level learning 'education.'

Take a teacher prep program, Do some student teaching, take competency test, pay fees and submit paperwork, get certification.

 

[NoDrama]

Teachers can opt to have money set aside from their 9 month salaries to compensate for the 3 months off. They aren't paid for an extra 3 months, plain & simple.

Most of the Teachers I know get Summer jobs, most of them get paid in cash under the table. Some of the more senior ones go on vacation.

 

[Coolwhip]

Did you know that the Unemployment levels of those 75+ years old is 94%? Did you know that unemployment levels for 12 year olds is 100%? If you aren't looking for real unemployment levels you can get statistics to say anything. Did you know that 64% of Americans are unemployed? Its true, 330 million Americans, only 103 million are working full time. Think overall unemployment nationwide is really 9.4%? More like 22%, but the lies sure are worth believing aren't they?

You are using a different definition of "unemployed" for every one of the statistics you just used.

My numbers came from the Labor Department, if you want to argue against the Labor Departments methodology, go ahead, but these are the figures generally excepted by economists and used by a majority of the media and the American population.

REGARDLESS, no matter what you say, 50,000 qualified, motivated, and skilled teachers aren't just going to magically appear. Let alone to accept the low wages and benefits received by k-12 teachers.

I live in reality, I like to discuss policy that applies to reality. The reality is you can't just fire the lowest performing 8% of teachers and think "good" teachers are just going to magically appear to take their places.

 

[Coolwhip]

Most of the Teachers I know get Summer jobs, most of them get paid in cash under the table. Some of the more senior ones go on vacation.

I don't think you are even addressing Mike's point, which is that for teacher's to get paid during the summer, the money has to first be deducted out of their regular pay checks.

What is your point? Teachers shouldn't be allowed to moonlight or work on the summer? Maybe if they were paid better they wouldn't have to, how many other professionals HAVE to get second jobs just to survive?

What are you even saying?

Teacher's don't get to take paid vacations during the school year at their leisure(like most other professionals) I can't believe someone would begrudge them the little time off they do get, and then hold the fact that they are forced to work second jobs during that time against them. The truth is, most professionals work 11 months out of the year, get 1 month paid vacation, plus sick leave/personal leave/paid holidays off and make much more than teachers. How are teachers getting a better deal?

 

[NewGrowth]

I just breezed through this but yes teachers are overcompensated it's obvious we need to fire them. If the demand for their worthless services is not there then why are we paying them? Make parents pay for their own childs education, our system is a failure. As time goes on even those deluded enough to think that they can produce nothing and be paid will realize it does not work that way. Americans have had a lot of money for a long time all that is about to change and arguing politics will not change the simple reality we are all faced with.

 

[NoDrama]

You are using a different definition of "unemployed" for every one of the statistics you just used.

My numbers came from the Labor Department, if you want to argue against the Labor Departments methodology, go ahead, but these are the figures generally excepted by economists and used by a majority of the media and the American population.

REGARDLESS, no matter what you say, 50,000 qualified, motivated, and skilled teachers aren't just going to magically appear. Let alone to accept the low wages and benefits received by k-12 teachers.

I live in reality, I like to discuss policy that applies to reality. The reality is you can't just fire the lowest performing 8% of teachers and think "good" teachers are just going to magically appear to take their places.

Do you think the Labor Department figures unemployment the same way they did in the 1930's? How about in the 1980's? Think they do it the same way? Once you fall off the unemployment rolls you are no longer counted as unemployed. In other words, if 103 million people were on Unemployment and then all of a sudden all 103 million unemployment ran out, guess what the unemployment numbers would say? 0% unemployment. MAXIMUM unemployment benefits exhaust after 99 weeks, but most are completely gone by less than half that. Know anyone unemployed and not receiving unemployment? They aren't counted as unemployed my friend.

 

[NoDrama]

I don't think you are even addressing Mike's point, which is that for teacher's to get paid during the summer, the money has to first be deducted out of their regular pay checks.

What is your point? Teachers shouldn't be allowed to moonlight or work on the summer? Maybe if they were paid better they wouldn't have to, how many other professionals HAVE to get second jobs just to survive?

What are you even saying?

Teacher's don't get to take paid vacations during the school year at their leisure(like most other professionals) I can't believe someone would begrudge them the little time off they do get, and then hold the fact that they are forced to work second jobs during that time against them. The truth is, most professionals work 11 months out of the year, get 1 month paid vacation, plus sick leave/personal leave/paid holidays off and make much more than teachers. How are teachers getting a better deal?

I don't know of one single teacher who works in the summer because he HAS to. Nope, all of them work in the summer because they want to have more money to buy more shit and keep up with the Jones's. Like the High School history teacher who moonlights as a house painter so he can afford to keep his Mercedes E500. Or the Music Teacher who teaches Piano every evening to students during the school year so she can afford to go to Hawaii for 2 months every year.

 

[Mike Young]

I just breezed through this but yes teachers are overcompensated it's obvious we need to fire them. If the demand for their worthless services is not there then why are we paying them? Make parents pay for their own childs education, our system is a failure. As time goes on even those deluded enough to think that they can produce nothing and be paid will realize it does not work that way. Americans have had a lot of money for a long time all that is about to change and arguing politics will not change the simple reality we are all faced with.

Make parents responsible for their childs education? You really wanna see the streets fill with vagrants. Parents solely assuming responsibility for their childs education would lead to bad things. A good percentage of parents cant even provide a healthy diet for their kids, let alone an education.

I suppose we can just send em all to war. That's a good way to deal with em.

 

[Mike Young]

Do you think the Labor Department figures unemployment the same way they did in the 1930's? How about in the 1980's? Think they do it the same way? Once you fall off the unemployment rolls you are no longer counted as unemployed. In other words, if 103 million people were on Unemployment and then all of a sudden all 103 million unemployment ran out, guess what the unemployment numbers would say? 0% unemployment. MAXIMUM unemployment benefits exhaust after 99 weeks, but most are completely gone by less than half that. Know anyone unemployed and not receiving unemployment? They aren't counted as unemployed my friend.

Also have to factor in the people who were never even granted unemployment for one reason or another. A couple of years ago they really tightened up on investigating who qualifies and who doesn't. I believe those numbers you say to be correct without a doubt.

 

[mindphuk]

How does removing the requirement to have a degree in education make better teachers?

Because an education degree does not mean that they will be a good teacher. At my university, people in education program had mickey mouse classes. There are many people more qualified to teach that don't have a degree in education, they pursued a degree in a field that makes them qualified to teach.

It looks like NoDrama has the right idea. I think I was misinformed about teaching requirements for my state.

 

[Coolwhip]

So now your saying that Teachers spend as much time in school as say a brain surgeon eh? Sure you aren't the one with limited mental capacity? Takes 4 years to get a degree to teach. How did I come up with 105K? well 51K for 9 months work is the same as $5,666 per month. so add 16,998 to 51k and you get 68K for a 12 month job, add in the value of all those tax payer funded benefits and you get 34K for that, add 34K to 68K and you get 102K, now extrapolate that as the average and you can easily see them getting total compensation over 105K.

I never compared a teacher to a brain surgeon, lots of teachers have masters and doctorates, there are a lot of professional careers that compensate better than teaching that require bachelor's or less. Teacher's don't work 9 months out of the year. Teacher's work many more than 40 hours per week. Teacher's(in most districts) don't receive 34k in benefits annually, and in many professional careers which require similar training and dedication those same benefits are provided at little cost tot the employee.

Teachers don't have the most important job in the world, parents do.

Parenting isn't a job, it's volunteer work.

Most home-schooled children run circles around public educated kids when it comes to knowledge. No one pays those parents to teach, and those parents still pay property tax so your kid can get a free shitty education.

Most families rely on two incomes, who is supposed to stay home and teach the kid? And in home school situations usually one of the parents is making double what a teacher makes.

If money is the answer then how come with the 300% increase in Government funding we have slipped 38 spots in world standing? The opposite of what you preach makes much more sense.

Total spending != teacher compensation.

http://www.nationmaster.com/red/pie/edu_pri_tea_sal_sta-education-primary-teacher-salary-starting

You want to improve education? Get people who give a shit to do the teaching. Also we could do plenty about getting rid of no child left behind, that's just a farcical way of passing kids through the grades and graduating them even though they are illiterate.

NCLB is meant to destroy our public education system by starving it of money(the same way conservatives have been destroying our governments for 30 years). Schools are forced to pass kids on, help them cheat, teach from the test, and fudge the numbers because the school will lose funding if they don't meet the benchmarks. And its not the teachers fault, the administrators are putting pressure on them to do it.

How do you expect a school to improve while cutting its funding?

I don't think you have it out for teacher's, I just think are you're another victim of the extremely vast and powerful right-wing infosphere.

And the main reason why teacher's are afraid to lose bargaining rights and fight very hard to protect their job security is because they rely on their pensions to retire. You work 10 years as a teacher, get fired, lose your pension, and you are fucked.

Most professionals will change jobs(or even careers) every 4 years or less. Their are very few professions left where you have to stay at the same place for 30+ years in order to retire comfortably, I can see why they fight so hard to protect their job security.

 

[NoDrama]

Ticking time bombs of massive public debt will solve all problems.