How Many Libertarians Out There?

[UncleBuck]

I love AZ..

i loved it while i was there, too. and to be honest, i would have never gone as long without work there as i did here. but it is simply not worth it in my opinion.

that state is a cesspool...

I am blaming Obama for...

your inability to start a business. i don't buy it.

 

[Hudsonvalley82]

Thank god a funny named black man is our president, or you guys would have trouble finding blame for all of your problems. Apparently libertarians are flawless and have never had a consequence fall upon them other than success. Any negative circumstance is a government funded invasion of their lives. Please grow the fuck up...Obama blah blah, liberals blah blah, other people this, other people that...Im just an innocent bystander who gets effected by all these other people's problems. They take my money, therefore all my financial problems belong to them. They have my social security number, therefore its big brothers fault that I got caught breaking the law. Wheres your humility? I admit that we are so fucking far from perfect it is not even funny, but that admission allows me to address, understand, and improve. Where's your admission in your own views?? Or are you flawless in your projection upon the world. Libertarians will never be in power cuz its their way or the highway. I enjoy a stimulating discussion with conservatives as they are ready in willing to admit the short comings of their views as am I.

However, they happen to agree upon working within the mental framework of reality, thats where conservatives and libertarians split. There are times in which liberal thinking and policy is the answer just as there are times in which conservative thinking is the answer.

If you walk around this earth wondering why most people think libertarians are a bunch of "wait for the Armageddon" crack pots, its probably because you, yourself, are diluted and insane.

I am a liberal, and I full well admit that liberalism is not the answer for everything. However it best aligns with my view of the world and my life experience, right or wrong. I suppose you have been a libertarian you entire life, but until recently you were cloaked as a conservative? Thats fine, I wish you well in your walking coma of delirium. But please, do me one thing, and one thing only, as your fellow citizen, please incorporate other peoples views into your mental plan.

Your not right, just as I'm not right. Hearing the opposing sides views helps up come to a more wholesome world view, and gets us that much closer to being right. That only works if you give up ground, then you'll find people are willing to do the same.

 

[NLXSK1]

i loved it while i was there, too. and to be honest, i would have never gone as long without work there as i did here. but it is simply not worth it in my opinion.

that state is a cesspool...

your inability to start a business. i don't buy it.

You are not understanding me. I could start the business, I could invest the time and money (60+ hours a week) but because of the current government actions I simply choose not to. This is happening on a big scale across America. It is one of the contributing factors to the high unemployment rate.

Therefore I will start a different business, with a much lower income so I dont have to pay over 1/2 of my income to the government in taxes. And other business owners will cut back and entrepeneurs will decide not to go into other businesses because it simply is not worth it with the amount of taxation and regulation.

So, fuck the government... I will work around 30 hours a week and make plenty of money to support myself and my habits and spend the other 30 hours a week on hobbies or other things. I am not going to bust my ass to add to someone elses bottom line.

 

[Hudsonvalley82]

And im tossing this in just for my 300th post. I dedicate it to citizens for Rand Paul

 

[Hudsonvalley82]

SO you are enjoying yourself, and hate the government for it? Please, your so selfless that you just can't stand not hiring all these people in a job that the government won't let you do due to taxes. 50% taxes, you need to get an accountant buddy.

A real businessman finds a way. I have tons of legit small business owners, in one of the highest taxing areas in the nation, and guess what? they make it. Not only do they make it, they do well for themselves. They pay 45% of their businesses income on taxes along with their employees health care. They all make money hand over fist, cuz they have determination, im talking butcher shops, land scaping, construction, ect...If the government is actually yanking 50% of your money out of your hand, I suppose your doing something wrong, you could start the business if you actually wanted to.

If you put as much effort into starting that business, and exploring your taxation situation a bit more, as you did in telling us your excuses on why you didn't then maybe you'd be busy enough not to be on political threads on pot forums. And before anyone comes back at me, im on vacation, thats why I have time.

You are not understanding me. I could start the business, I could invest the time and money (60+ hours a week) but because of the current government actions I simply choose not to. This is happening on a big scale across America. It is one of the contributing factors to the high unemployment rate.

Therefore I will start a different business, with a much lower income so I dont have to pay over 1/2 of my income to the government in taxes. And other business owners will cut back and entrepeneurs will decide not to go into other businesses because it simply is not worth it with the amount of taxation and regulation.

So, fuck the government... I will work around 30 hours a week and make plenty of money to support myself and my habits and spend the other 30 hours a week on hobbies or other things. I am not going to bust my ass to add to someone elses bottom line.

 

[NLXSK1]

Excessive taxation is a drag on the economy... It causes high unemployment, it does not create jobs.

There was a time when rich people were taxed at 90%... Then Kennedy came along and surprisingly he lowered the rate significantly and tax revenue INCREASED... Wierd huh?

The government through its regulation and taxation is dragging the economy down. That makes everyone suffer more than they need to. The economy is not a fixed amount of money, if the government laid its hands off we all would be better off.

Do you understand greed? You are greedy, rich people are not greedy. Know why? Because rich people work for their wealth, you just covet it... It is not greedy to want to control the money and resources you earned through work.

 

[Hudsonvalley82]

Wow, rich people aren't greedy huh? Really????
You sure you want to support your argument with that??

Im not saying that rich or poor people are greedy. Im saying we all are, as an entire society. Our values are pathetic. Our family structure is pathetic. Our entire system is pathetic, however, truth be told, the factors aren't going to change until we start valuing something more than money. Our worship of money has brought us here, and tear down the government or not, until we address our over-worship of money we are just going to repeat our same mistakes. Do I think we ever will? Fuck no, so we might as well just do the best be can with the government in place. Improve what we can, pay our taxes, and live our lives the best way we can under the socio-political climate. Thats all. There is nothing stopping anyone from doing that now. Taxes have never stopped me from anything, usually because I over budget for them. I understand that my tax dollars are spent killing afganis, supporting crack dealers, and helping people rip off medicare. I also understand that they are spent on roads, schools, police, people who are truly good people and need help, the abandoned elderly, the orphaned kids, the whole nine yards. And I still donate tons of money, time, and effort after which.

So fuck you if you are so greedy that you can't see that. You must live in a world that isn't much larger than your self serving wants and needs. Heres the question, if federal taxes were to lower to 20% tomorrow, what would your next complaint be??

Excessive taxation is a drag on the economy... It causes high unemployment, it does not create jobs.

There was a time when rich people were taxed at 90%... Then Kennedy came along and surprisingly he lowered the rate significantly and tax revenue INCREASED... Wierd huh?

The government through its regulation and taxation is dragging the economy down. That makes everyone suffer more than they need to. The economy is not a fixed amount of money, if the government laid its hands off we all would be better off.

Do you understand greed? You are greedy, rich people are not greedy. Know why? Because rich people work for their wealth, you just covet it... It is not greedy to want to control the money and resources you earned through work.

 

[UncleBuck]

So, fuck the government... I will work around 30 hours a week and make plenty of money to support myself and my habits and spend the other 30 hours a week on hobbies or other things. I am not going to bust my ass to add to someone elses bottom line.

you stated you make just enough to not pay taxes ($5700 single, $11400 married).

you stated you work 30 hours a week.

let's suppose you work 45 weeks a year, 30 hours a week...

30 x 45 = 1,350 hours

$11400/1350 = $8.40 per hour

you must be a subway sandwich tech at that wage.

why does everything you say stink like shitty bs?

i saw your thread about starting a dispensary in az...a real businessman would probably have done more research other than asking strangers on a pot forum.

ya know, talked to local law enforcement, dhs, city planners, etc. looked at startup costs, locations, recurring costs. i have never even started a legit biz and know these things...

you also said that you bought a house recently and that it is already paid off...possible, but not bloody likely.

how is the view from your parents' basement?

 

[UncleBuck]

And im tossing this in just for my 300th post. I dedicate it to citizens for Rand Paul

haha, rand paul.

libertarian when convenient is how i label him.

if he were truly libertarian, he would not toe the conservative line on abortion.

because if he did that, he could not get elected to dog catcher.

libertarian when convenient. just like his dear old dad.

 

[Hudsonvalley82]

Your tax argument is flawed. Look at the bush tax cuts...The reason it worked in the 20's and 60's was the fact that the tax rate, at least in JFK's instance, went from 91% to 70%. You are talking now from something like 38% to whatever. History shows that tax cuts below the 50% rate reduce revenue. You are using the most extreme example to make a blanket statement. It makes good theater not good economics, especially with todays tax rates.

 

[NLXSK1]

you stated you make just enough to not pay taxes ($5700 single, $11400 married).

you stated you work 30 hours a week.

let's suppose you work 45 weeks a year, 30 hours a week...

30 x 45 = 1,350 hours

$11400/1350 = $8.40 per hour

you must be a subway sandwich tech at that wage.

why does everything you say stink like shitty bs?

i saw your thread about starting a dispensary in az...a real businessman would probably have done more research other than asking strangers on a pot forum.

ya know, talked to local law enforcement, dhs, city planners, etc. looked at startup costs, locations, recurring costs. i have never even started a legit biz and know these things...

you also said that you bought a house recently and that it is already paid off...possible, but not bloody likely.

how is the view from your parents' basement?

UB,

Everything I post here is true. I dont lie on the internet, there is no point to it. You will find my posts very consistant because I dont have to try to remember shit I made up.

Now, I did not say that I was working 30 hours a week. What I said was... Rather than work 60 hours a week at a company I create with employees I will instead work 30 hours a week at a company with no employees. It is a different company plan altogether, not one that is scaled back.

None of the companies I am starting up have anything to do with medical marijuana. That is something I am looking into separately. I have no interest in trying to set up a dispensary in Phoenix at this time. My interest was in some type of possible supporting role. But again, not the businesses I am talking about.

The house I bought, I paid cash for. Have you seen the housing prices in Phoenix or better yet the nearby cities like Maricopa and Casa Grande? Crazy cheap prices... I bought it, I own it and with the exeption of having to pay almost 2K per year tithe to the local government it is all mine. Disbelieve it all you want, it wont change my reality.

Are you going to stop attacking me personally at some point and get back to the conversation or do you simply have nothing left?

 

[NoDrama]

Okay Mr, Detail. Although Nixon closed the gold window, it was dead since the thirties with little to no recognizable affect on our economic system. Keynes = Death of Gold. So keep trying to argue pointless details

So there we have it, your defeat. Told you those little details like facts are oh so important.

FWIW I do not advocate returning to the gold standard or the silver standard. I would be happy if government issued our currency.

 

[NoDrama]

Your tax argument is flawed. Look at the bush tax cuts...The reason it worked in the 20's and 60's was the fact that the tax rate, at least in JFK's instance, went from 91% to 70%. You are talking now from something like 38% to whatever. History shows that tax cuts below the 50% rate reduce revenue. You are using the most extreme example to make a blanket statement. It makes good theater not good economics, especially with todays tax rates.

Again, facts will bring out the truth.

1) Lower tax rates do not mean less tax revenue.
The tax cuts of the 1920s
Tax rates were slashed dramatically during the 1920s, dropping from over 70 percent to less than 25 percent. What happened? Personal income tax revenues increased substantially during the 1920s, despite the reduction in rates. Revenues rose from $719 million in 1921 to $1164 million in 1928, an increase of more than 61 percent.

The Kennedy tax cuts
President Hoover dramatically increased tax rates in the 1930s and President Roosevelt compounded the damage by pushing marginal tax rates to more than 90 percent. Recognizing that high tax rates were hindering the economy, President Kennedy proposed across-the-board tax rate reductions that reduced the top tax rate from more than 90 percent down to 70 percent. What happened? Tax revenues climbed from $94 billion in 1961 to $153 billion in 1968, an increase of 62 percent (33 percent after adjusting for inflation).

The Reagan tax cuts
Thanks to "bracket creep," the inflation of the 1970s pushed millions of taxpayers into higher tax brackets even though their inflation-adjusted incomes were not rising. To help offset this tax increase and also to improve incentives to work, save, and invest, President Reagan proposed sweeping tax rate reductions during the 1980s. What happened? Total tax revenues climbed by 99.4 percent during the 1980s, and the results are even more impressive when looking at what happened to personal income tax revenues. Once the economy received an unambiguous tax cut in January 1983, income tax revenues climbed dramatically, increasing by more than 54 percent by 1989 (28 percent after adjusting for inflation).
According to then-U.S. Representative Jack Kemp (R-NY), one of the chief architects of the Reagan tax cuts:
At some point, additional taxes so discourage the activity being taxed, such as working or investing, that they yield less revenue rather than more. There are, after all, two rates that yield the same amount of revenue: high tax rates on low production, or low rates on high production.


2) The rich pay more when incentives to hide income are reduced.
The tax cuts of the 1920s
The share of the tax burden paid by the rich rose dramatically as tax rates were reduced. The share of the tax burden borne by the rich (those making $50,000 and up in those days) climbed from 44.2 percent in 1921 to 78.4 percent in 1928.
The Kennedy tax cuts
Just as happened in the 1920s, the share of the income tax burden borne by the rich increased following the tax cuts. Tax collections from those making over $50,000 per year climbed by 57 percent between 1963 and 1966, while tax collections from those earning below $50,000 rose 11 percent. As a result, the rich saw their portion of the income tax burden climb from 11.6 percent to 15.1 percent.
The Reagan tax cuts
The share of income taxes paid by the top 10 percent of earners jumped significantly, climbing from 48.0 percent in 1981 to 57.2 percent in 1988. The top 1 percent saw their share of the income tax bill climb even more dramatically, from 17.6 percent in 1981 to 27.5 percent in 1988.
Harmful Spending & Complexity
Lower tax rates are important, but they are not the only critical issue. Both the level of government spending and where that money goes are very important. And even when looking only at tax policy, tax rates are just one piece of the puzzle. If certain types of income are subject to multiple layers of tax, as occurs in the current system, that problem cannot be solved by low rates. Similarly, a tax system with needless levels of complexity will impose heavy costs on the productive sector of the economy.

 

[medicineman]

Thank god a funny named black man is our president, or you guys would have trouble finding blame for all of your problems. Apparently libertarians are flawless and have never had a consequence fall upon them other than success. Any negative circumstance is a government funded invasion of their lives. Please grow the fuck up...Obama blah blah, liberals blah blah, other people this, other people that...Im just an innocent bystander who gets effected by all these other people's problems. They take my money, therefore all my financial problems belong to them. They have my social security number, therefore its big brothers fault that I got caught breaking the law. Wheres your humility? I admit that we are so fucking far from perfect it is not even funny, but that admission allows me to address, understand, and improve. Where's your admission in your own views?? Or are you flawless in your projection upon the world. Libertarians will never be in power cuz its their way or the highway. I enjoy a stimulating discussion with conservatives as they are ready in willing to admit the short comings of their views as am I.

However, they happen to agree upon working within the mental framework of reality, thats where conservatives and libertarians split. There are times in which liberal thinking and policy is the answer just as there are times in which conservative thinking is the answer.

If you walk around this earth wondering why most people think libertarians are a bunch of "wait for the Armageddon" crack pots, its probably because you, yourself, are diluted and insane.

I am a liberal, and I full well admit that liberalism is not the answer for everything. However it best aligns with my view of the world and my life experience, right or wrong. I suppose you have been a libertarian you entire life, but until recently you were cloaked as a conservative? Thats fine, I wish you well in your walking coma of delirium. But please, do me one thing, and one thing only, as your fellow citizen, please incorporate other peoples views into your mental plan.

Your not right, just as I'm not right. Hearing the opposing sides views helps up come to a more wholesome world view, and gets us that much closer to being right. That only works if you give up ground, then you'll find people are willing to do the same.

I can agree with most of the above, but, there's always a but, I differ with the notion that conservatives ever consider any liberal notions. In my humble opinion, that has not been the case on this forum or in real life. The only ones that I ever see caving in to the other side is the progressives. Example: to get the unemployment extensions, they gave in to the right on the tax cuts. It would seem to me that even the most hard core conservatives would want to give the unemployed, in this horrible job seeking condition, an extension of benefits, But only did they allow it when their rich friends got their huge tax credits, BTW that added 720 Billion to the deficit over the next ten years, or 144 billion for the 2 year extension, Uhhhh, what about the deficit??? well folks, they want to pay for it by cutting all social programs while allowing their rich friends to get even wealthier. Talk about the essence of assholeness.

 

[NoDrama]

Secondly your talking about the IMF not the gold standard, one is a unified mutually agreed upon currency global infrastructure. The other is a heavy metal backed currency. Two different things...I guess the truth was out there thanks!!

Umm no, im not talking about the IMF at all. Bretton Woods, Bretton Woods, Bretton Woods. Reserve Currency, Total hegemonic control of the worlds most useful commodity ever known to man and must be paid for in reserve currency and nothing else. You should really look into this Bretton Woods thing Hudson. You will learn something I guarantee.

 

[NoDrama]

Oh and the USA did not become the most powerful country in the world because we went into debt. No, we became powerful because our citizens are some of the hardest working and most innovative people on the planet when they do not have huge government sponsored obstacles in the way. After WW2 there were no countries with any manufacturing capacity left except the good ole USA. Guess who made everything the rest of the world wanted?

 

[NoDrama]

you stated you make just enough to not pay taxes ($5700 single, $11400 married).

The standard deduction is 5700 and the personal deduction for yourself is 3600. so you need to make in excess of $9,100 to pay any tax at all. Not sure how much difference that's going to make to you, but from over here its a 63% difference.

 

[Carthoris]

No problem with some of your arguments, but the food stamp replacement seems like that will require more people working for whatever replaces food stamps. Sounds like we will have to run regional distribution centers, which is funded by government money. Which means ADDING TO GOVERNMENT. Now, I can tell you that running a distribution center without any profit margin will be VERY expensive. All we pay people (or machines) to do right now is add money to a card every week. I know it is not flawless, but less expensive than your idea FOR SURE.

I will tell you this.....I do like the libertarians views that THINGS NEED TO CHANGE. They seem to live life in reality, more-so than their counterparts, the Republicans. But I still tell you, they still align themselves with social conservatives come voting time, and that is a major problem.

Im pretty sure Walmart would give the government a good deal on a set amount of food or welfare people. You don't have to add anything, just give it to someone else to deal with. Walmart would probably do it for cost just to increase their orders which would drop their cost and make them money in the end. Quite simply put though. A 10 pound block of cheese, 10 pounds of hamburger, a few loaves of bread, and some milk/eggs is a lot cheaper than the 300-1000 that a lot of people are getting on food stamps atm.

Private interests could take care of this... have you ever helped at a food bank? I have. They give people plenty of food. It might not be a huge case of doritos and soda, but its food and it will take care of you. The food banks aren't spending 300 a month to feed a family.

It is pretty easy to see that most 'poor' people just don't give two shits about their own lives - Why would anyone else? Liberals are like Cuckoo birds, and Conservatives are like wild boars.

The only reason I would vote conservative is because I know at least I will have a gun to use to struggle against the oppression that is coming. Both sides are equally disgusting to me. I don't want my personal life or my financial life controlled. I vote the party of "Mind your own fucking business and and Ill mind mine"

 

[Carthoris]

Now you are assuming that my example was ME....you are laughable. I am giving you facts, and you still keep butting your head up against a wall.

The fact is this......YOU QUIT YOUR JOB, so you are ineligible to collect unemployment. So you have no income until your business shapes up, and you are bitter. We get it. Now, here is another fact. If any other person quit their job, they would not get unemployment either.

I can tell that you do not have a very high IQ, because you think work ethic means spinning your wheels.

And your assumption was totally off. And I am providing for my family, so I guess by your definition, I have a great work ethic. LOL.

I wonder what businesses you are starting on your own, that are legal? Pretty gutsy to start a business in this harsh environment. Or stupid.

Anyways, I would bet money that you are renting your home, while I own mine. I would be willing to be that while you say you are starting several businesses (cough...BS), you actually are not pulling in money from any one of them legally. Merely saying you are starting a business does not mean you are working hard at it. Tell me I am wrong. I am laughing while I type this right now, because you are so silly.

Why don't you just realize that there are many ways to show you have a great work ethic, and not all of them involve working for money. What if I farmed for my own vegetables, raised my own beef, built my own home and worked only to put food on my table....... would I have a strong work ethic then? Not by your standards, I fear.

They are granting unemployment whether you quit your job or are fired now. I have done 20+ unemployment hearings this year and lost every one of them even when the employee outright quit because "the job was too stressful". They are just granting it for everyone now. Even when during the hearing the person admits they quit for no real reason than 'they were stressed out at work" they win. Its a bitch of a world.

 

[Carthoris]

Oh, and I just noticed your 3 interviews junk. I can now tell you have never tried for a high end position with a lot of responsibility. When you have a degree, and make good money, companies will interview you 3 different times, and you have to make it through each one. So for each job you want, you have to get through 3 interviews to get the job, and beat out Harvard Grads, Yale Grads, Business people with more experience, former CEO's, etc.

As I continue to read your posts, I am starting to notice you are probably a Republican and social conservative, because you have so much to say about what OTHERS do. I am just explaining the realities of corporate high paying jobs to the ignorant, and uneducated.......that means NLXSK1 as of his last post. Does that sound like whining to you? Or does it sound like you got a verbal ass whoopiing, son?

Failing to see the difference between conservatives and liberals on that. Both of them want to control something I do that is none of their concern.