How Many Libertarians Out There?

[NLXSK1]

Bingo buddy, actually I would say that the government is even a slave to a larger capitalist system, in which no one owns their own money.

I would completely disagree with that.

Seems to me that most peoples money belong to bank loans and credit cards, not the government. So your working for a bank, owning things you shouldn't own and living a quality of life that none of us should enjoy, for what the average american makes, none of us should own property let alone a house or several cars, or an expensive set of golf clubs. Those don't sound like slaves to governments to me, they sound like slaves to a heightened sense of greed and vision of a happy life written by marketing specialists and boardrooms. Our retirements are tied up in 401k, in the banks, our homes are tied by in mortgages in the banks, our educations are tied up in the student loans from the banks, our cars, TV's, appliances, trust funds, everything.

All of those things are results from choices that people can make. I dont have a mortgage, I dont have a car payment, etc... And I dont have those things because I planned my life accordingly.

The government and its problems are just a symptom of a much larger problem that must be addressed prior to solving anything else government-wise. Money controls all, and it controls us, not the government.

So your answer is for the government to confiscate the money that controls us and divvy it out as it chooses to control us instead? LOL!!!!

That is why we make no forward progress in this discussion, as we are attacking a symptom, not the germ.

What germ? You seem to think if you took all the money from the rich and made the poor into a subsidized middle class that somehow this will fix all of the problems in America. Despite the continued proof of the failure of these programs. We are broke, government didnt fix anything it just is continuing the misery for people.

Regarding the firetrucks, that was a literary analogy, not an actual example. I was basically stating that throwing less at an urgent problem usually doesn't make matters better.

My problem is that you have no concern for confiscating wealth, giving it to a centralized government authority and waiting patiently while they dole it out to you in the form of goods and services.

I was planning on building a business that would have generated alot of income. I would have had employees, I had a business plan... Then Obama showed up on the scene and honestly after taking a good long look at the end of the Bush administration, TARP, the union bailouts, the state pension fund bailouts, the destruction of wealth by the government monetizing its debt, the assumption of another HUGE welfare program, etc..

Fuck it. I am not creating wealth to be raided and misspent by the government. So I changed my life plan. I will make enough money to keep me happy and I will spend alot more of my freetime doing hobbies. It simply is not worth all that effort to give more than 1/2 of my productive life to the government.

You keep thinking the rich are just this stagnant class of people you can rip off and then figure that throwing money at problems fixes them. Look at the 1 trillion dollar stimulus... Money thrown in a pit for no return.

So, with all due respect, fuck your ideas of how I should pay for all of the social programs you envision to make America a utopia. Go find someone else to fucking pay for it because I am not going to participate. And alot of other talented people are not going to step up to the plate as well. Have you looked at the unemployment figures recently. There is a statistic for new small business creation and it has been negative for the last 2 years. And it has never been negative before since it was recorded.

Your arrogance and greed are strangling the golden goose and your government has already spent 10 years worth of future eggs...

 

[Hudsonvalley82]

The gold standard is just out dated. Thats like saying we should go back to horse and buggy, cuz it worked. Have a currency backed by finite quantities of a metal are no actual way to value a countries economy. Inflation happened then too, so did deflation. The gold standard was rank with manipulation as well. Our currency isn't the problem with debt. Debt existed in huge quantities long before the gold standard was eliminated. The gold standard failed is the bottom line. Countries had to go to war(s), countries had deal with the great recession, and it ended up that the gold standard system was not able to adapt to the needs of the times. A new system had to be put in place, and blammo, here we are. You act like the gold standard would have kept us from falling into debt, or could solve any of these problems, which it can't. It would only deflate out currency and bankrupt what remains of american production.

It is absurd, and unreal to even entertain an argument about the gold standard. Its gone, and the problems we face are not at all a direct result of its abolition. Quite wasting time crying that FDR ruined america and shit. No one but a handful of your scared, rear view wishing, peers are out of touch enough to speak of the gold standard without addressing it's obvious failures and more over its impossibility to reinstate. Its a pipe dream.

And yes I believe that any government is based upon an economic system. Short of dire circumstances, all governments bend toward economic interests, unless the issue is indifferent monetarily. All governments, every single one, has its instincts tuned to its economic interests. You can't tear it down, no one ever has, we just remake the same model in a different set of circumstances. Small government, big government, socialism, democracy, dictatorship, representative monarchy, any of it...All the same thing, the blood of all those models is money. How can you possibly be so naive as to think that a government or society is free of its control by its economic lifeblood. I don't have a problem with it. Thats the way it has always been. I'm not going to sit around and be upset that sometimes things aren't fair. Tell some kid starving in Sudan how bad our problems are and maybe you will have a bit of appreciation for the problems you actually have. Being a citizen of the most powerful country in the world that has debt, much like every other country, is not that bad of a problem unless your a bitch. If you have a problem with that, there are many shacks in montana in which you can spend your life wholesomely sending out mail bombs.

Has it ever occurred to you that things have always been conducted as such, yet you are just being made aware of it now due to the flow of information? And people are using this sudden enlightenment as a tool of manipulation to steer you to a Conservative narrative, wholly funded and created by neo-cons like Dick Armey.

Look out the sky is falling!!!!!!!! Someone call Ron or Rand Paul they can fix all of this!

 

[Hudsonvalley82]

AHAHAHA

You are laughable...they only thing that you have said that has made sense was:
So I changed my life plan. I will make enough money to keep me happy and I will spend alot more of my freetime doing hobbies.

I applaud you for coming to that decision. Creating wealth is pointless, it represents nothing. No one ever said "thank god this guy made so much money" at an eulogy.
Wealth isn't in dollars and cents or possessions. Wealth is managing to stay somewhat happy from day to day.

And will all due respect, America is no utopia, never will be. Small business creation has been down for 2 years due to umm...a recession?? yeah, maybe thats it. All we are talented at is making money, thats about it. I come across few people that can manage to do anything else. Have fun saying that you won't participate cuz it awakens come teenage rebellion streak that exists somewhere within your being, and then have fun actually paying your taxes.

All these things are a direct result of people not paying attention over the past several decades. These problems are not any politicians fault. They are yours and mine. Our population is largely ignorant, and when you have an ignorant electorate, guess what you end up with? A large self sustaining government. So here we are. You can't tear it down, cuz too much depends on it and the only safe way out is cutting a rational amount of spending and jacking up taxes on the public, and actually taxing companies properly.

The amount of circumstances that you have to be blind to in order to harbor your beliefs, right or wrong, is staggering.

 

[NLXSK1]

and actually taxing companies properly.

Do you realize that we have the highest corporate taxes in the WORLD? (Japan is lowering theirs so we are #1 at something again!!! YAY!!!)

And then you cry when jobs go overseas... It's just not fair...

 

[NoDrama]

its not your money...its your dues that you owe to your nation for the quality of life and wealth that you enjoy.

My quality of life is much much more dependent upon the fruits of my own labors than what infrastructure my tax money has helped build. So is yours. You don't actually believe that if we all just sit around that happiness will come to us from on high government edict do you?

 

[NLXSK1]

My quality of life is much much more dependent upon the fruits of my own labors than what infrastructure my tax money has helped build. So is yours. You don't actually believe that if we all just sit around that happiness will come to us from on high government edict do you?

If unemployment is so *stimulative* the entire country should just take a year off on unemployment and we could pay off most of our debt apparently...

 

[hazorazo]

Anyone notice MedicineMan has like 50 posts about how he hates Libertarians. I'm beginning to think he is either a welfare case, or his old lady ran off with a Libertarian. MedicineMan, what would your ideal form of government be? You sound like a firm supporter of communism.

I don't think most Libertarians really want to get rid of the entire shibang. Look at the government/country as a house. It has termites, it has roaches, the carpet is moldy, drywall has holes. You don't bulldoze the house and start over or try to fix everything at once, you fix one issue at a time. You don't just live in the house and continue to make it worse by ignoring the problems and beating a few new holes in the wall.

Step one: Contraction military reach. Do we really give two shits what happens in Iraq, Afghanistan, Germany, Yugoslavia, or Mars? Do any of us really care if Korea rejoins? Not really. Our military budget is massive, and we don't need to be supplying anyone in the world. This isn't going to affect the people in our country at all. We have almost half a million troops in foreign countries.

Step two: Tax everyone. More taxes you say? Everyone should pay taxes, or no one. Phase out Earned Income Tax Credits. Phase out tax benefits for being married, having children, ect. This will create a huge surplus, and then taxes can be lowered for everyone.

Step three: Food stamps phased out. Replacing food stamps with program to give them actual food. A big box of cheese, rice, noodles, ect. Cheap foods that are nutritionally acceptable. It is not acceptable to eat lobster, steak, doritos, and drink soda at the cost of tax payers. The goal of food stamps is to feed you while you are in a rough patch, not feed you forever at high levels. The cost of

Step four: Being stupid is not a disability. Disability is for those who are physically incapable of working. As it is, people are getting disability because they are assholes. Being an asshole isn't a disability. What did assholes (people with ADD and everything like that) do before it was a disability?

Step five: Fix medical costs. The problem is insurance is it costs so much. Why? BS, that's why. Go to the emergency room, deal with 20 people to get stitches or antibiotics. It would be a pretty simple feat to change the rules and allow nurses to give you antibiotics or stitch up your cut. Small public 24 hr hospitals could take 99% of the ER visits. How much does it really cost to talk to a nurse for 5 minutes when you have the flu? It costs about $100 to talk to a doctor normally at an office. Why is it 5k to go to the ER for the flu? Why do poor people choose to go to the ER instead of the doctor? Why do you have to wait 3 hours and go sit in a room for a few more before you talk to anyone about the issue? Why couldn't the triage nurse just take care of it, obviously she is already making decisions about how bad your health issue is. I am pretty sure with a weeks training you could teach someone to take care of flus and minor cuts.

Doing those 5 things would cut down a lot on our expenses as a country. We could easily have a surplus, and begin paying down the deficit. Then once it is down, we can lower taxes for everyone.

No problem with some of your arguments, but the food stamp replacement seems like that will require more people working for whatever replaces food stamps. Sounds like we will have to run regional distribution centers, which is funded by government money. Which means ADDING TO GOVERNMENT. Now, I can tell you that running a distribution center without any profit margin will be VERY expensive. All we pay people (or machines) to do right now is add money to a card every week. I know it is not flawless, but less expensive than your idea FOR SURE.

I will tell you this.....I do like the libertarians views that THINGS NEED TO CHANGE. They seem to live life in reality, more-so than their counterparts, the Republicans. But I still tell you, they still align themselves with social conservatives come voting time, and that is a major problem.

 

[NoDrama]

a duh:

The gold standard broke down during the 1930s as countries engaged in competitive devaluations. The gold standard worked fairly well from the 1870s until the start of World War I. During the war the government financed military expenses by printing money resulting in inflation, and price levels were high everywhere by the end of the war. Then, in an effort to encourage exports and domestic employment, countries started regularly devaluing their currencies. People lost confidence in the system and started to demand gold for their currency putting pressure on countries' gold reserves, and forcing them to suspend gold convertibility and by World War II, the gold standard was over.

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_did_the_gold_standard_collapse#ixzz19cHNRGyu​

Were talking about the USA here bub. USA and therefore the whole world after Bretton Woods was on a Gold Standard no matter how many wiki answers you can find that say otherwise. Bretton Woods, Bretton Woods, Bretton Woods. Might want to check out WTF Bretton Woods is. World Reserve currency backed by gold = The Worlds Currencies are backed by the reserve which were backed by gold, hence the whole world was on a gold standard until 1971, Nixon closed the Gold Window. Don't wiki those worthless answers, read and investigate, the truth is there.

 

[UncleBuck]

I dont have a mortgage, I dont have a car payment, etc... And I dont have those things because I planned my life accordingly.

did that plan also involve not even earning enough to pay income taxes? (less than $5,700 single, double for married).

I was planning on building a business that would have generated alot of income. I would have had employees, I had a business plan... Then Obama showed up.... So I changed my life plan.

lamest. excuse. ever.

especially since you would be paying LESS taxes under obama than under his predecessor.

you sound like you live in your parent's basement and your uncle was going to give you a loan to start a lemonade stand but chose to piss it off on whiskey and blackjack instead. now you are all bitter.

"i wasch gonna get rich with my buschinessch plan but obama wasch elected!"

i lol'ed

 

[hazorazo]

First off we are talking about working at McDonalds or being unemployed. One option brings in little money, the other option brings in no money. I dont understand your logic here.

As far as work ethic, it means you do what it takes to get the job done. If you are unemployed you find a new job. People who lay around getting unemployment and not looking for a job do not have a good work ethic. That means you are willing to take taxpayer funded welfare while you fuck off...

When you take unemployment you agree to actively look for work. I personally know of people who are not doing that right now. And from conversations I have had it seems like everyone knows 1 or 2 people that are skating on unemployment. And if you take the full 2 years unemployment benefits you will have burned up more money than you paid into the system FOR LIFE...

So, since you want to analyze me, let me analyze you...

You had a great paying job but got laid off so fuck the government and the taxpayers you are gonna take a 2 year subsidized vacation.

I had a job. I quit it back in September. The reason I quit it is that I didnt make enough money. I am starting several businesses of my own that I know will bring in probably twice as much income as my other employment. Having a good work ethic does not mean that you have to go find a paying job, it means that you are driven to provide for yourself and your family (through legal means).

3 interviews to get a high paying job? If that is all it takes why are you whining so much?

Now you are assuming that my example was ME....you are laughable. I am giving you facts, and you still keep butting your head up against a wall.

The fact is this......YOU QUIT YOUR JOB, so you are ineligible to collect unemployment. So you have no income until your business shapes up, and you are bitter. We get it. Now, here is another fact. If any other person quit their job, they would not get unemployment either.

I can tell that you do not have a very high IQ, because you think work ethic means spinning your wheels.

And your assumption was totally off. And I am providing for my family, so I guess by your definition, I have a great work ethic. LOL.

I wonder what businesses you are starting on your own, that are legal? Pretty gutsy to start a business in this harsh environment. Or stupid.

Anyways, I would bet money that you are renting your home, while I own mine. I would be willing to be that while you say you are starting several businesses (cough...BS), you actually are not pulling in money from any one of them legally. Merely saying you are starting a business does not mean you are working hard at it. Tell me I am wrong. I am laughing while I type this right now, because you are so silly.

Why don't you just realize that there are many ways to show you have a great work ethic, and not all of them involve working for money. What if I farmed for my own vegetables, raised my own beef, built my own home and worked only to put food on my table....... would I have a strong work ethic then? Not by your standards, I fear.

 

[NoDrama]

But I still tell you, they still align themselves with social conservatives come voting time, and that is a major problem.

That is a major problem, people want to win, many just vote for who they think will win so they can say they voted for them. People are stupid, petty and wouldn't know a politic from a Tick. Voting for the lesser of 2 evils is still voting for evil.

You are presented with 2 choices, if neither is your choice then your vote is not counted.

 

[hazorazo]

First off we are talking about working at McDonalds or being unemployed. One option brings in little money, the other option brings in no money. I dont understand your logic here.

As far as work ethic, it means you do what it takes to get the job done. If you are unemployed you find a new job. People who lay around getting unemployment and not looking for a job do not have a good work ethic. That means you are willing to take taxpayer funded welfare while you fuck off...

When you take unemployment you agree to actively look for work. I personally know of people who are not doing that right now. And from conversations I have had it seems like everyone knows 1 or 2 people that are skating on unemployment. And if you take the full 2 years unemployment benefits you will have burned up more money than you paid into the system FOR LIFE...

So, since you want to analyze me, let me analyze you...

You had a great paying job but got laid off so fuck the government and the taxpayers you are gonna take a 2 year subsidized vacation.

I had a job. I quit it back in September. The reason I quit it is that I didnt make enough money. I am starting several businesses of my own that I know will bring in probably twice as much income as my other employment. Having a good work ethic does not mean that you have to go find a paying job, it means that you are driven to provide for yourself and your family (through legal means).

3 interviews to get a high paying job? If that is all it takes why are you whining so much?

Oh, and I just noticed your 3 interviews junk. I can now tell you have never tried for a high end position with a lot of responsibility. When you have a degree, and make good money, companies will interview you 3 different times, and you have to make it through each one. So for each job you want, you have to get through 3 interviews to get the job, and beat out Harvard Grads, Yale Grads, Business people with more experience, former CEO's, etc.

As I continue to read your posts, I am starting to notice you are probably a Republican and social conservative, because you have so much to say about what OTHERS do. I am just explaining the realities of corporate high paying jobs to the ignorant, and uneducated.......that means NLXSK1 as of his last post. Does that sound like whining to you? Or does it sound like you got a verbal ass whoopiing, son?

 

[NLXSK1]

did that plan also involve not even earning enough to pay income taxes? (less than $5,700 single, double for married).



lamest. excuse. ever.

especially since you would be paying LESS taxes under obama than under his predecessor.

you sound like you live in your parent's basement and your uncle was going to give you a loan to start a lemonade stand but chose to piss it off on whiskey and blackjack instead. now you are all bitter.

"i wasch gonna get rich with my buschinessch plan but obama wasch elected!"

i lol'ed

ROFLMAO!!! Yeah, you would get that...

Car is paid off, house is paid off. If you plan your financial life according to sensible spending rules then you dont have to be a slave to the dollar as was my response to the other poster. I made choices on where I spent my money. When government confiscates wealth from my paycheck I simply dont have the option to spend that money anymore.

I have already owned and run several businesses in my life. I am starting a few more. However, the new businesses I am starting dont have employees, have a much lower planned income, etc. My point is that I have chosen not to work for the government. To not generate my maximum potential income because more than 1/2 of it will simply be stolen by the government. Anything I choose to save will be destroyed by upcoming inflation of the dollar. It simply is not worth it.

You sound like someone envious of people living in their parents basement. That seems to be why you are stuck to Obama's backside.. The savior... He will pay your healthcare, and everything else. Just send your check to the government and they will take care of you... You are looking for another set of parents now that yours wont let you just sponge off them anymore... LOL!!!

 

[UncleBuck]

You sound like someone envious of people living in their parents basement. That seems to be why you are stuck to Obama's backside.. The savior... He will pay your healthcare, and everything else. Just send your check to the government and they will take care of you... You are looking for another set of parents now that yours wont let you just sponge off them anymore... LOL!!!

swing and a miss!

i used to live in az, knew a few bums like you. in fact, is that you, jarrad?

keep dreaming of all those 'businesses' you will start up while you manufacture sandwiches at subway.

just remember, it is ALL obama's fault. YOU are BLAMELESS.

hahahahahahahahaha

 

[NLXSK1]

The fact is this......YOU QUIT YOUR JOB, so you are ineligible to collect unemployment. So you have no income until your business shapes up, and you are bitter. We get it. Now, here is another fact. If any other person quit their job, they would not get unemployment either.

Yes, I know that. I am not bitter about my income situation this was completely planned.

I can tell that you do not have a very high IQ, because you think work ethic means spinning your wheels.

In one post you are ripping me by telling me that doing work without compensation doesnt mean you have a bad work ethic. In this post you are ripping me because I am supposedly *spinning my wheels* When in fact I am painting the entire outside of my house, putting in place the paperwork to start businesses, doing research, obtaining suppliers, etc. Could you figure out which way you want it and then let me know? Thanks...

I wonder what businesses you are starting on your own, that are legal? Pretty gutsy to start a business in this harsh environment. Or stupid.

LOL!!! This is one of the best times to start a business. You are too scared to even comprehend starting your own business so I can understand why that would elude you. Let me enlighten you. The real estate market is in the tank, this includes the commercial real estate market. When you sign a business lease it tends to be for 5-10 years. It is the perfect time to rent space because the rental prices are awesome. Unemployment is at 10% You know what that means? It means that 8 or 9 people out of every 10 still has a job. It really isnt as bad as people might portray it to be. Next, business is still going on out there.. Didya notice? Also, with 10% unemployment you have a pretty nice labor pool to choose from. You can be picky hiring employees and possibly get some that are overqualified at a good salary. I could go on but it would be pointless as the information is lost on you...

Anyways, I would bet money that you are renting your home, while I own mine. I would be willing to be that while you say you are starting several businesses (cough...BS), you actually are not pulling in money from any one of them legally. Merely saying you are starting a business does not mean you are working hard at it. Tell me I am wrong. I am laughing while I type this right now, because you are so silly.

I own my house, it is completely paid for. I do rent several of my other homes to people, but that wasnt what you were implying. The businesses that I am starting/have started are completely legit and will generate income. For security purposes I am not going to tell you exactly what they are. It doesnt matter, all you have is my word on the internet. But I assure you that as I am typing this, I am laughing because you could not be farther from the truth.

I would ask you to send the cash from the bet but again, for security reasons...

Why don't you just realize that there are many ways to show you have a great work ethic, and not all of them involve working for money.

Why were you bashing me for spinning my wheels earlier in the post? Yeah, get back to me on that... HAHAH!!!

You seem really bent on this work ethic thing. I simply said that a work ethic means getting the job done and providing for your family. I didnt say anything about getting paid for it. Fear my judgement all you want but it seems kinda silly over the internet.

 

[NLXSK1]

swing and a miss!

i used to live in az, knew a few bums like you. in fact, is that you, jarrad?

keep dreaming of all those 'businesses' you will start up while you manufacture sandwiches at subway.

just remember, it is ALL obama's fault. YOU are BLAMELESS.

hahahahahahahahaha

What do you want from me UB? I tell you my life as it is happening and you accuse me of lying.. What is my response supposed to be?

 

[UncleBuck]

What do you want from me UB?

man up, grow a fucking pair, and quit blaming the president for your shitty life.

i would be as bitter as you if i still lived in az as well though, so....

 

[NLXSK1]

man up, grow a fucking pair, and quit blaming the president for your shitty life.

i would be as bitter as you if i still lived in az as well though, so....

I love AZ.. I have an awesome life!!!

I am blaming Obama for being clueless about how the ecomony works and adding another massive welfare program onto a government flying towards complete insolvency...
I am blaming the government for being over 13 trillion dollars in debt and just demanding more, more, more...
I am blaming the government for monetizing our debt by creating money which will cause inflation and devalue the dollar...

You act as if I dont have a right to be pissed off about these things.

 

[Hudsonvalley82]

Okay Mr, Detail. Although Nixon closed the gold window, it was dead since the thirties with little to no recognizable affect on our economic system. Keynes = Death of Gold. So keep trying to argue pointless details without addressing the big picture.

Were talking about the USA here bub. USA and therefore the whole world after Bretton Woods was on a Gold Standard no matter how many wiki answers you can find that say otherwise. Bretton Woods, Bretton Woods, Bretton Woods. Might want to check out WTF Bretton Woods is. World Reserve currency backed by gold = The Worlds Currencies are backed by the reserve which were backed by gold, hence the whole world was on a gold standard until 1971, Nixon closed the Gold Window. Don't wiki those worthless answers, read and investigate, the truth is there.

 

[Hudsonvalley82]

Secondly your talking about the IMF not the gold standard, one is a unified mutually agreed upon currency global infrastructure. The other is a heavy metal backed currency. Two different things...I guess the truth was out there thanks!!