Grafting Autoflowers onto a Non-auto base?

mosh2metal

Active Member
great answers thanks guys, brick top your the man +rep you too i bleed resin for the large posts, i will definately create a journal when i try this out, i think it would be a success if it flowers at all! if anyone else thinks they're going to give it a go let me know how it turns out wud ya!
 

SCARHOLE

Well-Known Member
I swear I read you could graft marijuana tops on to the hops plant once.

Can't say as I blame you; I fell for the hype. I am going to give the Iranian autos a shot since I've gotten good reports about them. They are 90 day autos rather than the typical 60 day ones. But I can't wait til spring to grow some monster trees here in sunny Cali!
Iranian arent a true auto, just very photo sensive an short flowering you can clone em. Heard good things about iranian.
Afropips has a fast Blast IranxBlueberry, I want to try it
 

mosh2metal

Active Member
I swear I read you could graft marijuana tops on to the hops plant once.
yea i heard something similar, i know for a fact that the hops plant is a close relative of MJ, so maybe its possible man. This guy i know that works at a head shop near to where i live said that you could make the hops "pods" produce thc? i dont know if its true, but it would be kool to grow some thc enriched hops plants in your window, the cops couldnt say shit!
 

potpimp

Sector 5 Moderator
I read about grafting pot onto hops too; I started to mention it earlier. There must be something to it. I know that hops has roots that go WAY down. That doesn't sound possible about the hops producing THC.
 

Brick Top

New Member
I read about grafting pot onto hops too; I started to mention it earlier. There must be something to it. I know that hops has roots that go WAY down. That doesn't sound possible about the hops producing THC.

I have heard the same thing, though I do not know of anyone who has ever tried it. But if what is currently believed to be true it should be possible, or at least highly likely to be possible. The genus Cannabis was formerly placed with nettles in the family Urticaceae or with mulberries in the family Moraceae, but is now considered along with hops (Humulus sp.) to belong to the family Cannabaceae. If so hops would be the closest relative of cannabis and the most likely to accept a graft.

The hops part of the plant, the portion below the graft, would not produce any cannabinoids. When you graft the portion grafted onto another plant remains the same, it retains all it's original genetics and will grow just as if it was still part of the plant it had been removed from. The same goes for the host plant, the plant the graft is attached to. It's genetics remain exactly the same. It such a graft were to take and just below the graft the hops plant would push out new growth and along with the cannabis plant portion be allowed to grow the hops portion would grow and remain exactly the same as if the cannabis graft had never been grafted to the hops plant.

Grafting does not splice or combine genetics of the different plants involved in grafting. It only allows one type of plant, or tree or bush, to grow from the stem/stalk/trunk of the other.
 

Dystopian

Member
Was just thinking of this myself and bam there it was. pretty awesome idea for maxing out the autos if they do yield more. but it seems there would still be a trade off variety for less yield and not so great for a commercial grower. i wonder if there are any applications for a larger scale since you would have to also make more seeds as well.hmm this has me thinking of new possibilities
 

Brick Top

New Member
also what about nute burn??? the larger base plant would buffer the auto but would it affect the auto badly??

Please further define buffer and I will see if I can come up with a correct answer or at least a logical assumption.

Did you mean something like if the dual plant, the host plant and graft, were say fed too much nitrogen the host plant, the plant the graft was grafted to would buffer or protect it from damage and if say only an adequate amount of nitrogen were fed, or possibly slightly less than an adequate amount would the host plant rob or steal or use to much of it and the graft would receive too little?
 

Dystopian

Member
what i mean is that different strains need different amount of nutes, and this is compounded by the fact that the plants are of different size and also in different stages of life. The base plant is larger and im wondering if the autos would absorb more than they should and burn off. If this is a non-issue because its basically just one plant and you are replacing what was cut off with the new graft then i understand. But Im just curious as to how they would react.
Also, what nutes would you give? Just flowering or a mix? The base plant is still in vegetative state while the auto is doing its thing. It would seem fairly risky to remove all veg growth from the base and replace it with grafted autos. Theres a chance to lose the graft and if theres no original growth left on the base plant it could die if the autos that survive can't sustain it. And if some veg was left to sustain the base for a perpetual harvest, creating a "mother base-plant" would it not need a higher dose of Nitrogen than growers are used to giving a (semi) flowering plant. Although i am reading Uncle Ben's thoughts on nitrogen in flower right now.... Hope my question make more since now and if not just disregard heh. Thanks BT
 

Brick Top

New Member
what i mean is that different strains need different amount of nutes, and this is compounded by the fact that the plants are of different size and also in different stages of life. The base plant is larger and im wondering if the autos would absorb more than they should and burn off. If this is a non-issue because its basically just one plant and you are replacing what was cut off with the new graft then i understand. But Im just curious as to how they would react.
Also, what nutes would you give? Just flowering or a mix? The base plant is still in vegetative state while the auto is doing its thing. It would seem fairly risky to remove all veg growth from the base and replace it with grafted autos. Theres a chance to lose the graft and if theres no original growth left on the base plant it could die if the autos that survive can't sustain it. And if some veg was left to sustain the base for a perpetual harvest, creating a "mother base-plant" would it not need a higher dose of Nitrogen than growers are used to giving a (semi) flowering plant. Although i am reading Uncle Ben's thoughts on nitrogen in flower right now.... Hope my question make more since now and if not just disregard heh. Thanks BT

You graft low on a plant, like 6 inches up, and once the graft takes the rest of the original plant is removed so it is not like growing two different plants with leaves that might have different needs. Also the hops plant is the most similar plant to cannabis, it is in the same family, so nutritional needs should not differ much. I really don't know about the changes in nutritional needs that might occur. If you grafted a young auto-flower to a young hops plant both would be in vegetative growth but I really don't know if when the auto-flower would begin to need flowering nutes if it would make a difference or not. The growth part of the hops plant would not be there, not the foliage, just a short bit of stem and the roots, so it would not be like part of a plant would need different nutrients, not as existing leaves anyway, so I don't know if there could or would be any problems.

I bet Uncle Ben could tell you better .. right down to if such a graft would or should actually take or not.
 

skunky33

Active Member
The grafted auto, would still be an auto flower and flower. The base plant's basically like a water source no genetic characteristics are traded.
 

Brick Top

New Member
The grafted auto, would still be an auto flower and flower. The base plant's basically like a water source no genetic characteristics are traded.

Exactly .. that is what I have said, just said shorter. All you would really gain, if you grafted to a well established plant, would be a well established root structure for your grafted auto to rely on.

Whatever is above the graft will retain it's full complete genetics and not be altered in any way by what is below, by what it is grafted to, and the same goes for what is below, it will remain exactly what it was, there will be no genetic changes, neither will be altered beyond that of having been joined, other than possibly a much better root structure for the part grafted to the other plant to rely on.
 

potpimp

Sector 5 Moderator
I bet Uncle Ben could tell you better .. right down to if such a graft would or should actually take or not.
I thought about asking U.B. to jump in here since he is a Master gardener. Most of what I have learned on here (the stuff that actually works) has been from him.
 

GNOME GROWN

Well-Known Member
dude a buddy of mine showed me that exact video last week now hes trying to get me to give him branches off my mother so he can graft them to his plant! lol

good luck bro!
 

Brick Top

New Member
I thought about asking U.B. to jump in here since he is a Master gardener. Most of what I have learned on here (the stuff that actually works) has been from him.
Uncle Ben is the best resource for knowledge on RIU. He is the one and only person I will ask questions of if I run into something I have never experienced before and cannot find an answer for through outside research and is something cannabis specific that asking my family members with botany degrees are unable to answer.

Uncle Ben is 'da man.'
 

Bighill

Active Member
This has been debated, even tried. The last time i seen some one try it, they auto cutting didn't take. It just never perked up like the other non auto one did.

What i find interesting about the experiment, will the flowering be delayed at all by the size of the host plant. Could perhaps be an interesting side affect.

A theory that i feel explains what makes an auto auto, boils down to proteins building up that affect genes that can alter the circadian clock.

This one is for brick, since you are about the details mate. I didn't come up with all this, as i am not a geneticist. However you can determine what the message is. If you would like sources, i'll be happy to PM whom ever.

My hypnoses on the auto gene.
My hypnoses is
LHY late elongated hypocotyl gene
and/or
TOC1 Timing of CAB expression 1 gene
is responsible for flowering in Day-Neutral Cannabis, aka Auto-Flowering Cannabis.

I base this on the genetic (DNA mapping) work that has bend dun on Rosales.

The specie Cannabis is in the Cannabaceae family, which is in the order Rosales.




The dominant late elongated hypocotyl (lhy) disrupted circadian clock regulation of gene expression and leaf movements and caused flowering to occur independently of photoperiod. LHY was shown to encode a MYB DNA-binding protein. Increased LHY expression from a transgene caused the endogenous gene to be expressed at a constant level, suggesting that LHY was part of a feedback circuit that regulated its own expression. Thus, constant expression of LHY disrupts several distinct circadian rhythms and LHY may be closely associated with the central oscillator of the circadian clock. Of the central circadian clock genes, homologs of LHY and TOC1 were present in our EST libraries and GDR, respectively, but CCA1 was lacking from Rosaceae databases.
 

Brick Top

New Member
This has been debated, even tried. The last time i seen some one try it, they auto cutting didn't take. It just never perked up like the other non auto one did.

What i find interesting about the experiment, will the flowering be delayed at all by the size of the host plant. Could perhaps be an interesting side affect.

A theory that i feel explains what makes an auto auto, boils down to proteins building up that affect genes that can alter the circadian clock.

This one is for brick, since you are about the details mate. I didn't come up with all this, as i am not a geneticist. However you can determine what the message is. If you would like sources, i'll be happy to PM whom ever.

My hypnoses on the auto gene.
My hypnoses is
LHY late elongated hypocotyl gene
and/or
TOC1 Timing of CAB expression 1 gene
is responsible for flowering in Day-Neutral Cannabis, aka Auto-Flowering Cannabis.

I base this on the genetic (DNA mapping) work that has bend dun on Rosales.

The specie Cannabis is in the Cannabaceae family, which is in the order Rosales.




The dominant late elongated hypocotyl (lhy) disrupted circadian clock regulation of gene expression and leaf movements and caused flowering to occur independently of photoperiod. LHY was shown to encode a MYB DNA-binding protein. Increased LHY expression from a transgene caused the endogenous gene to be expressed at a constant level, suggesting that LHY was part of a feedback circuit that regulated its own expression. Thus, constant expression of LHY disrupts several distinct circadian rhythms and LHY may be closely associated with the central oscillator of the circadian clock. Of the central circadian clock genes, homologs of LHY and TOC1 were present in our EST libraries and GDR, respectively, but CCA1 was lacking from Rosaceae databases.

If you would like sources, i'll be happy to PM whom ever.
First, in response to your question of; "will the flowering be delayed at all by the size of the host plant?" I want to say no, other of course that the amount of time needed for the graft to take and heal and normal growth to then continue ... but that is pure assumption.

As for your sources, I would love to see all the sources you have, or at least links for them so PM away when you feel like doing so.

This is all beyond my level of plant knowledge and will take either a great deal of research or someone who is very educated in plant DNA and all facets of botany. The more you delve into it you find much more plays a part in the answer to the question than was stated in the initial question/theory message.

The central circadian clock genes, LHY and TOC1 are understandable and CCA1 was mentioned but without any real information of its functions or limits. When researched there appear to be limitations or things that can possibly control, partially control or at least somewhat alter it under certain conditions.

A hypocotyl, a dominant late elongated one or not, is the space between the radicle and the plumule. A hypocotyl develops into a stem. The radicle is the part of the embryo that emerges first and develops into a main root, root hairs and secondary roots. A plumule is like a leaf in its early development.

An elongated hypocotyl (lhy) encodes a MYB DNA-binding protein increasing LHY expression from a transgene, which is an exogenous gene introduced into the genome of another organism.

Research findings, though not performed on ruderalis or auto-flowering cannabis or any genus cannabis, and instead on other non-photoperiod plants found that transcriptional feedback loops constitute the molecular circuitry of the plant circadian clock and there is a core loop is established between CCA1 and TOC1.

Transcriptional feedback loops constitute the molecular circuitry of the plant circadian clock. A core loop is established between CCA1 and TOC1. Although CCA1 directly represses TOC1, the TOC1 protein has no DNA binding domains, which suggests that it cannot directly regulate CCA1. A functional genomic established strategy that led to the identification of CHE, a TCP transcription factor that binds specifically to the CCA1 promoter. CHE is a clock component partially redundant with LHY in the repression of CCA1. The expression of CHE is regulated by CCA1, thus adding a CCA1/CHE feedback loop to the circadian network. Because CHE and TOC1 interact, and CHE binds to the CCA1 promoter, a molecular linkage between TOC1 and CCA1 gene regulation is established

Now you have TOC1 protein and CHE thrown into the mix that were not initially mentioned, though might be in your sources.

For me to be able to answer the question correctly it will take a lot of time and a lot of serious research, so for my sake I hope your sources hold the answers or there is someone here who is in expert in plant DNA and plant functions that can give a simple answer because certain things appear to be contradictory to me and others just incredibly difficult to understand since I do not understand everything about the topic.
 
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