Why Commercialization and Taxes Are an Important Part of Legalization

[Dan Kone]

I've noticed a lot of people strongly object to commercialization and taxes when it comes to legalization. I get that it shouldn't be that way. It should just be legal and there is no justification for the government demanding special taxation of cannabis. I'm in total agreement on that.

However commercialization and taxation give the government a reason to protect our rights. When the government and community in general is receiving an economic benefit, they are more likely to protect and defend us against the DEA and other drug enforcement. City councils will not support a sheriffs department shutting down a dispensary or legal grow op if they are depending on the income it brings it. It could also end up gaining the support of the community, changing opinions of people outside the cannabis community.

Like it or not, money is power. It's much easier to convict a guy growing bud out of his house or a guy who got caught driving around with a couple pounds than it is to shut down a corporation and convict the owners. Commercial growers deserve protection from the law just like everyone else.

You should take the time to consider that commercialization and taxation benefit all of us and legalization in general. They are are the answer to the "what's in it for me?" question to government and people who have no interest in cannabis. Should we have to put up with that? No, absolutely not. Is it in our best interest to do this? Yes it is.

I'm not necessarily talking about what happened in Oakland with the handful of expensive exclusive permits for massive growing. I agree that was obscene and not good for anyone. I'd totally support size limits on larger commercial growing to prevent these things. No problem with that.

Perhaps we need a legalization law that is somewhere between prop 19 and prop 215. A law similar to prop 215 except only applying to non-medical use that moderately taxes recreational use with greater protection for commercial growing. And of course, a low cap on permit fees for commercial growing/selling so we are not excluding people.

If we could have a system similar to the one we have now except growers were more protected and medical and non-medical cannabis were separated so we could only tax and regulate non-medical use I'd be pretty happy about that. How about you?

 

[veggiegardener]

How about adding" P19-Plan B" to the thread title?

Your OP is as good as it gets. Thoughtful and to the point.

I posted the following in another thread, just a moment ago.

Well said, my friend!

I think a thread that explores what would work might be in order.

If nothing else, we'd find out what people want, and the price they're willing to pay to get it.

The state would be well advised to keep its bite small, until the distribution network is in place, and proving popular.

Taxes can be increased over time, unless specifically banned in a Proposition.

I'd like to see a flat 10% tax on all sales, with a stamp like cigarettes have, showing taxes have been collected.

No tax would be better, but that would incite massive funding against any such bill.

Even 10% would be considered very low by anyone familiar with "sin taxes".

Sales taxes are nearly 10% throughout California so I imagine the 10% would be added to the existing sales tax.

Seem high?

Local law enforcement will cite the increased enforcement required, in any case, so maybe by giving something up front, it will blunt their objections' impact.

Just some thoughts.

Maybe someone who has the time can start a P19B thread?

Trimming is going to tie me up for another month.

I think this is the place.

 

[Dan Kone]

I'd like to see a flat 10% tax on all sales, with a stamp like cigarettes have, showing taxes have been collected.

I had an additional idea on taxation. If it's possible rather than have a 10% tax going into the general fund, I think it would be in our best interest to have that tax money all go to a specific purpose like local schools. This benefits us in 3 ways that I can think of.

1) If the tax money only went to local schools then only communities who allowed legal growing/selling would benefit giving cities/counties greater greater incentive to permit liberal legalization laws.

2) If local communities all of a sudden saw a specific benefit from legalization like money going into their kids education, you would get parents (large voting block) who don't care about cannabis or possibly object to it supporting local dispensaries/growing and voting for legalization.

3) It's possible the teachers union would endorse this and maybe even actively go out in support of it. They are arguably the most powerful organization in California currently. Their support could be a difference maker. When Harvey Milk was fighting for gay rights in San Francisco, what put him over the top getting him elected? He gained the support of the teamsters. A powerful group completely unrelated to his cause but very organized. He found a way to have mutual interests with them and it worked.

Right now Oakland does about $25 million dollars per year in medical cannabis sales. If they were allowed to open their doors to the general non-medical public, that could easily double. Taxing that $50 mill at 10% could give the local schools an extra $5million dollars. I'd imagine teachers in Oakland might take a special interest in legalization if that was the benefit.

Hell, we could even cut to the chase and pay off the cops instead! If we put that tax money generated in Oakland and put it to a pay raise for all police officers. That would give every officer in Oakland an extra $5000 per year. Imagine the police officers union out campaigning FOR legalization. Legalization would pass in a landslide and as a side effect we'd never have to worry about the cops again! We might even see fist fights between the cops and the DEA if they tried to shut down dispensaries.

 

[veggiegardener]

i actually like the idea of paying off the police, legally!

Nothing will help the schools until parents get serious about supporting the schools, instead of turning their kids loose on the internet, or in front of the boob tube.

 

[Dan Kone]

Just examples. The point being if you have a dedicated tax going to a specific purpose in the community which is valued by the majority and backed by a big union or organization and ONLY give the tax money to communities that permit cannabis cultivation and sales, we turn the moderate benefit of taxing cannabis into a HUGE advantage that could make the difference as well as make local governments more open to permitting more cultivation/sales.

 

[veggiegardener]

i actually like the idea of paying off the police, legally!

Nothing will help the schools until parents get serious about supporting the schools, instead of turning their kids loose on the internet, or in front of the boob tube.

In reality, pot will never generate a large amount of revenue, compared to other commodities, like booze, or gasoline, or the lotto.

A lot of people will use, but a good percentage will grow, sharing(no money involved) with family members and friends.

If no money changes hands, there's no basis for taxation.

Of course if you got caught cheating, you'd be crucified, drawn and quartered, and fed to leeches.(About the only way the AG would accept such a relaxed system).

 

[veggiegardener]

Just examples. The point being if you have a dedicated tax going to a specific purpose in the community which is valued by the majority and backed by a big union or organization and ONLY give the tax money to communities that permit cannabis cultivation and sales, we turn the moderate benefit of taxing cannabis into a HUGE advantage that could make the difference as well as make local governments more open to permitting more cultivation/sales.

Before my wife's health took a downturn, we were considering enlisting the police department as allies, by placing the dispensary inside the police station, paying both rent and security fees for the privilege.

Agreed, the LEOs would be powerful allies.

 

[Dan Kone]

In reality, pot will never generate a large amount of revenue, compared to other commodities, like booze, or gasoline, or the lotto.

A lot of people will use, but a good percentage will grow, sharing(no money involved) with family members and friends.

If no money changes hands, there's no basis for taxation.

Of course if you got caught cheating, you'd be crucified, drawn and quartered, and fed to leeches.(About the only way the AG would accept such a relaxed system).

Take my example with Oakland, $5 million dollars in tax revenue isn't shit on the state level. It real isn't a meaningful amount of money if it's in the general fund at the local level either. But if given specifically to the police department or the school system, now you're talking enough money for those folks to take an active interest in it. You're gaining support. Possibly enough support to make the difference.

If the police officers union or the teachers union endorsed legalization, it would be game over. We win.

If we are going to be taxed anyways, we might as well have a bill that decides the tax up front and use that tax to gain allies.

 

[Uncultivated]

If you think it should be legalized because its harmless, then THAT is the argument! "Do it so the state can make tax money", is, quite frankly, an argument that would make me vote against it.

The government is controlling way to much of GDP and asking for more day after day. Most governments, especially California, are essentially special interest groups for the publics sector employees. Bottom line is that casino gambling, lotteries, weed legalization, tax hikes and all that other crap are just more ways for the government to steal more money to feed the public unions.


Let me ask this: California is going friggin' broke, virtually every voter in the state realizes you are going in the wrong direction, and yet you reelected Moonbeam and Barbara Boxer? I just can't figure that one out.

Oh well, at least when the state goes bankrupt, Obama won't have the votes to bail the state out.

 

[veggiegardener]

Take my example with Oakland, $5 million dollars in tax revenue isn't shit on the state level. It real isn't a meaningful amount of money if it's in the general fund at the local level either. But if given specifically to the police department or the school system, now you're talking enough money for those folks to take an active interest in it. You're gaining support. Possibly enough support to make the difference.

If the police officers union or the teachers union endorsed legalization, it would be game over. We win.

If we are going to be taxed anyways, we might as well have a bill that decides the tax up front and use that tax to gain allies.

Exactly the sort of specificity lacking in P19.

Agreed.

I'd also like to see the law allow small growers to sell their excess, as long as they pay the required taxes.

How about stamps that are purchased in bulk?

Each stamp represents a certain amount of herb, by weight.

Say, $5 for five grams, per stamp.

The seller registers and pays the tax up front, making sure that the amount sold under each stamp matches the number of stamps straddling the container lid or zip lock. Make it impossible to remove the stamp without destroying it.

A serial number would identify the seller.

Possessing a bag or jar containing an amount greater than the stamps indicate would be jail time for both the seller and buyer.

Having a bag without a stamp would do the same.

Growers would of course be exempt unless the have a stamped bag of excessive weight.

Sampling my Starburst tonight. Definitely a daytime smoke. Strong!

 

[veggiegardener]

If you think it should be legalized because its harmless, then THAT is the argument! "Do it so the state can make tax money", is, quite frankly, an argument that would make me vote against it.

The government is controlling way to much of GDP and asking for more day after day. Most governments, especially California, are essentially special interest groups for the publics sector employees. Bottom line is that casino gambling, lotteries, weed legalization, tax hikes and all that other crap are just more ways for the government to steal more money to feed the public unions.


Let me ask this: California is going friggin' broke, virtually every voter in the state realizes you are going in the wrong direction, and yet you reelected Moonbeam and Barbara Boxer? I just can't figure that one out.

Oh well, at least when the state goes bankrupt, Obama won't have the votes to bail the state out.

Go dip a teabag, and lust over Sarah Palin.

You're in over your head, here.

 

[Uncultivated]

Go dip a teabag, and lust over Sarah Palin.

You're in over your head, here.

I guess you're right. With a cutting, witty retort like that, it's obvious that you must be, like Jeopardy smart or something. Waaay too brilliant for me to understand.

Um... can I at least make it a cannabis tea?

 

[Dan Kone]

If you think it should be legalized because its harmless, then THAT is the argument!

Sure, to you and me. If you're a non-smoker you probably don't care about that much. We need the support of the majority, not just the support of the people who agree with us already.

"Do it so the state can make tax money", is, quite frankly, an argument that would make me vote against it.

Which is why that if you read the thread, you'll notice I advocate giving no money to the state. Instead the tax money should go to local governments who allow sales and cultivation in their communities as an incentive.

The government is controlling way to much of GDP and asking for more day after day. Most governments, especially California, are essentially special interest groups for the publics sector employees.

I couldn't agree more. Let's use that to our advantage and get those public employee unions on our side by giving the tax money directly to something they would support. If we could get public employee unions out supporting legalization publicly, that could win it.

As I said, if the teachers union or the police officers union endorsed legalization, that's game over. We win.

 

[Uncultivated]

I couldn't agree more. Let's use that to our advantage and get those public employee unions on our side by giving the tax money directly to something they would support. If we could get public employee unions out supporting legalization publicly, that could win it.

As I said, if the teachers union or the police officers union endorsed legalization, that's game over. We win.

They winning is NOT us winning! Whatever money they get from legalizing weed their bloated pension system would piss through in a year or so, and then they'd be back for more. Western governments are on the road to fiscal breakdown, and when the debt bubbles explode it'll be chaos and likely the end of free-market capitalism. Delaying the collapse of society for a year or two isn't exactly good public policy, IMHO. And the police unions aint ever, never going to support legalization. Even if you bribe them.

The best thing to do, IMO, would be to decriminalize possession and cultivation of small amounts.

 

[Dan Kone]

They winning is NOT us winning! Whatever money they get from legalizing weed their bloated pension system would piss through in a year or so, and then they'd be back for more.

Under prop 19 they could have absolutely done that. It set no limitations on taxing. However we can stop that from happening threw a ballot measure that is worded better.

If it is specifically stated in the ballot measure where the money goes and how what the tax rate is, that can not be changed by any politician at the local, state, or national level!

Ballot measures are the one true democratic aspect of our government that can not messed with by politicians. In California, ballot measures when passed become part of the constitution. Only another citizen vote would be able to change them.

And the police unions aint ever, never going to support legalization. Even if you bribe them.

You don't think cops like money? If legalization put an extra $5000 in the hands of every police officer every year legally, you bet your ass they'd support it. Cops are not above bribery. If it's legal bribery, they'd all support it.

The best thing to do, IMO, would be to decriminalize possession and cultivation of small amounts.

Pretty much done already in Cali. Time to take the next step.

 

[veggiegardener]

I'm the son of two civil servants.

The state and federal governments got more than their money's worth from both.

The unions agreed long ago to forgo large salaries in favor of good benefits.

Trying to remove those benefits would be a travesty, and would probably result in chaos.

Remember, all those benefits were agreed to by people YOU(or your grandparents) elected.

Screwing public servants to avoid paying taxes is entirely anti American.

You live up to your contracts, or pay a heavy price.

 

[gupp]

Honestly, since we've pretty much proven that it's harmless...there should be less tax than alcohol or cigarettes. Make it similar to corn or something.

I doubt the state would care, people would be more likely to buy it anyway.

I have no idea where the taxes should go.

Education, perhaps.

 

[Dan Kone]

Honestly, since we've pretty much proven that it's harmless...there should be less tax than alcohol or cigarettes. Make it similar to corn or something.

I doubt the state would care, people would be more likely to buy it anyway.

I have no idea where the taxes should go.

Education, perhaps.

It doesn't matter where the taxes go as far as I'm concerned. Since it'll be taxed anyways, we might as well use that tax to our advantage by making them directly benefit some large organization that otherwise wouldn't support legalization as a whole, gain support in the community, and give communities real incentives to allow sale/cultivation.

 

[veggiegardener]

It doesn't matter where the taxes go as far as I'm concerned. Since it'll be taxed anyways, we might as well use that tax to our advantage by making them directly benefit some large organization that otherwise wouldn't support legalization as a whole, gain support in the community, and give communities real incentives to allow sale/cultivation.

OK, you've made that point.

Allies within the establishment are good, and their support should be bought, if possible.

 

[Uncultivated]

I'm not here to criticize anyone's parents. I WILL take issue with one point you've made, however.

The unions agreed long ago to forgo large salaries in favor of good benefits.

That may have been the case a long time ago, but it is not true now. Salary surveys clearly show now that, in addition to absolutely top-shelf benefits, government employees earn substantially more than their private-sector equivalents.

The current trend of government growth is not sustainable. Sooner or later it's going to hit crisis stage; probably quietly and under-the-radar for most people, as it was with the subprime mortgage crisis. Pay attention to what goes on in Greece and France, because it's only a matter of time before judgement day comes to California; and any new taxes imposed to stem the crisis will only slightly delay it.