herro. no vent needed idea

[Mikov]

hi i'm mikov, swell forum comrads.
thanks for having me.

i had an idea a while back
so fungus' like shrooms need O2(oxygen), and release CO2(carbon dioxide)
and
plants like bud need CO2, and release O2

i got to thinking could you theoretically have some lights growing some plants about 2 to 3 ft off the ground, and on top of the lights put some tubs full of cakes. CO2 is heavier than O2, so the CO2 created by the boomers on top of the lights will sink down to the plants, and O2 from the plants will rise up to the fungus, allowing the molecules exchange reciprocally(so even if you don't have an airtight system, the natural flow is in your favor). so theoretically there would be no need of a vent for fresh air right? i keep trying to think of the problems i would run into if i were setting this up, but i can't really think of any big ones. i imagine the shrooms would need some descent air filtration, but it still seems plausible. with a nice series of fans and tubes it shouldn't be too hard. the space above the lights would be perfect for boomers too. i've never grown em but i'm pretty sure they like indirect sunlight and a high 80 degree F temp, which again sounds like a good idea.

i'm wondering if anyone has any practical experience. yeah it sounds good on paper, but if someone's already tried it and it blows or rocks, do share. i want to know how effective this approach would be for either species. like i said it seems like it just helps both.

any thoughts are obliged and will be discussed.

 

[biffchicken]

Very interesting idea. I think ventilation serves as something to vent hot air as well as providing fresh air. Your idea might solve the air exchange, although I'm worried it wouldn't be enough exchange to make a good difference. You may have to have a whole bunch of each plant to be effective. As for the fan venting hot air, that would still be a problem. Where is all that hot air going to go? Even if you have co2 and o2 being made by both plants, it would just get too hot in there. I think the most important roll of a Ventilation fan is to exhaust the hot air. Anyways, that's my two cents.

 

[TaoWolf]

Not sure how much CO2 would actually be produced that way but I know of one person who micro-brews beer and vents the CO2 from fermentation back into his grow... he also grows the hops he uses (which is, interestingly, related to the cannabis plant). Thought that was a cool idea as well.

Oh and just FYI, you can/should run higher temperatures when using CO2 in a grow which makes having a closed system more plausible.

----

"Assuming genetics is not a factor, plants seem to be able to absorb more light at higher temps, perhaps up to 90 degrees. High light and CO2 levels could make this go as high as 95 degrees for increased growth speed.* An optimum of 95 degrees is new data that assumes very-high light, CO2 enrichment of 1500 ppm and good regular venting to keep humidity down. It is not clear if these temperature will reduce potency in flowers. It may be a good idea to reduce temperatures once flowering has started, to preserve potency, even if it does reduce growth speed. But higher temperatures will make plants grow vegetatively much faster, by exciting the plants metabolism, assuming the required levels of CO2 and light are available, and humidity is not allowed to get too high.

With normal levels of CO2, in a well vented space, 90 degrees would seem to be the absolute max, while 85 may be closer to optimum, even with a great deal of light available. Do not let the room temperature get over 35 C (95 F) as this hurts growth. Optimal temperature is 27-30 C (80-86 F) if you have strong light with no CO2 enrichment. Less than 21 C (70 F) is too cold for good growth.


Low temperatures at night are OK down to about 60 degrees outdoors, then start to effect the growth in a big way. Mid 50s will cause mild shock and 40s will kill your plants with repeated exposure. Keep your plants warm, especially the roots. Elevate pots if you think the ground is sucking the heat out of the roots. This is an issue if you have a slab or other type of cold floor.


As temperature goes up, so does the ability of the air to hold water, thus reducing humidity, so a higher average temperature should reduce risk of fungus.


Contrary to many reports, high humidity is not good for plants except during germination and rooting. Lower humidity levels help the plant transpire CO2 and reduce risk of molds during flowering.


Studies indicate the potency of buds goes down as the temperature goes up, so it is important to see that the plants do not get too hot during flowering cycles."


* D. Gold: CO2, Temperature and Humidity, 1991 Edited by E. Rosenthal.

 

[reggaerican]

interesting indeed you totally should do a test in a small sealed room i would love to read that thread....
just take some money from your avatar to set up shop

 

[TaoWolf]

I also read an article in Urban Garden magazine about a grow-room that was set-up with water-cooled lights and water chillers... effectively enough that the overall room air temperature could be finely controlled with a thermostat attached to the water chillers.

I'm sure if you threw enough money at it you could achieve a "symbiotically/biologically-driven-organic-sealed-grow-room". =P

 

[ScrogThis]

IMHO sounds like perpetual motion, plants can't produce O2 or CO2 from nothing, in a sealed room once the initial gases are depleted what would be the fuel source? (just theoretical, obviously you'd have to break the seal to tend the plants) I don't believe the two are all that compatible in terms of grow environment (temp, light, humidity) either, one or the other would surely suffer. Just a personal preference but I tend to shy away from fungi in my grow room....

 

[phyzix]

It wont work for more than a couple days. Air exchange is a must unless you have a sealed room with supplemental CO2.

The shrooms and plants will deplete the room in no time.

 

[TaoWolf]

Photosynthetic plants produce O2 as a byproduct of photosynthesis. Fungus and yeast produce CO2 as a product of metabolism. In either case, light is 'consumed' and/or a food source is consumed as an energy source. It's not perpetual motion - just the same symbiosis that keeps you alive and breathing (that air you breathe has oxygen in it from plant waste and plants survive on that carbon dioxide you exhale). Us being alive proves it works. =P

Practicality is the real question...

Google 'terrarium', 'sealed bottle garden', 'biosphere', or 'ecosphere' for a proof of concept.

-------------------

Here's a link to a large functioning one that is extremely complex:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biosphere_2

And here's a link to building a sealed terrarium:

http://www.hmk.on.ca/terrarium.html

 

[mistaphuck]

but I was under the impression that a sterile environment need when growing shrooms. and shrooms have a faster life cycle, and don't they need a higher humidity?

 

[bobbutcher]

i had a similar idea, but with the use of home brewing beer, to which you could also make cannabeer

 

[ScrogThis]

I thought he was just talking about some 'shrooms and weed as opposed to an entire ecosystem, my bad.

 

[TaoWolf]

It wont work for more than a couple days. Air exchange is a must unless you have a sealed room with supplemental CO2.

The shrooms and plants will deplete the room in no time.

Well not going to argue with the skeptics after this, but at the size of a small aquarium, ferns can stay viable for over 5 years - completely sealed off from outside air. A lot of other plants can as well. And that is just from metabolic bacterial CO2 production (which, in turn, stay alive by using the O2 produced by the fern/other plants). Mushrooms, yeast, and fungi can produce a greater amount of CO2 faster. People routinely do this sort of micro-environments in terrariums and the like all the time. One would just have to scale up the process to a closet or room size...

Doubt there is much practicality with the concept though due to the cost and time it would consume.

Respect to all.

 

[Mikov]

Not sure how much CO2 would actually be produced that way but I know of one person who micro-brews beer and vents the CO2 from fermentation back into his grow... he also grows the hops he uses (which is, interestingly, related to the cannabis plant). Thought that was a cool idea as well.

Oh and just FYI, you can/should run higher temperatures when using CO2 in a grow which makes having a closed system more plausible.

----

"Assuming genetics is not a factor, plants seem to be able to absorb more light at higher temps, perhaps up to 90 degrees. High light and CO2 levels could make this go as high as 95 degrees for increased growth speed.* An optimum of 95 degrees is new data that assumes very-high light, CO2 enrichment of 1500 ppm and good regular venting to keep humidity down. It is not clear if these temperature will reduce potency in flowers. It may be a good idea to reduce temperatures once flowering has started, to preserve potency, even if it does reduce growth speed. But higher temperatures will make plants grow vegetatively much faster, by exciting the plants metabolism, assuming the required levels of CO2 and light are available, and humidity is not allowed to get too high.

With normal levels of CO2, in a well vented space, 90 degrees would seem to be the absolute max, while 85 may be closer to optimum, even with a great deal of light available. Do not let the room temperature get over 35 C (95 F) as this hurts growth. Optimal temperature is 27-30 C (80-86 F) if you have strong light with no CO2 enrichment. Less than 21 C (70 F) is too cold for good growth.


Low temperatures at night are OK down to about 60 degrees outdoors, then start to effect the growth in a big way. Mid 50s will cause mild shock and 40s will kill your plants with repeated exposure. Keep your plants warm, especially the roots. Elevate pots if you think the ground is sucking the heat out of the roots. This is an issue if you have a slab or other type of cold floor.


As temperature goes up, so does the ability of the air to hold water, thus reducing humidity, so a higher average temperature should reduce risk of fungus.


Contrary to many reports, high humidity is not good for plants except during germination and rooting. Lower humidity levels help the plant transpire CO2 and reduce risk of molds during flowering.


Studies indicate the potency of buds goes down as the temperature goes up, so it is important to see that the plants do not get too hot during flowering cycles."


* D. Gold: CO2, Temperature and Humidity, 1991 Edited by E. Rosenthal.

good reads thanks tao.

interesting indeed you totally should do a test in a small sealed room i would love to read that thread....
just take some money from your avatar to set up shop

if only i didn't need it for food

I also read an article in Urban Garden magazine about a grow-room that was set-up with water-cooled lights and water chillers... effectively enough that the overall room air temperature could be finely controlled with a thermostat attached to the water chillers.

I'm sure if you threw enough money at it you could achieve a "symbiotically/biologically-driven-organic-sealed-grow-room". =P

yeah with the ideas brought up here it seems like it'd become a very expensive project. possible, but expensive. so maybe when i've got more money to play with.

and yeah a humidity clash came to mind. i was thinking an ac unit or water cooler as you suggested tao for keeping the temp in the mid 80s. shrooms magic temp is in the 80s somewhere. and yes epic filtration would be involved because the shrooms need sterile everything throughout their whole life. so it would have to be 2 really controlled environments, coming to be a ton of money. so i think we've concluded this is a stupid idea unless you're a casual grower with nothing better to do. better to just buy a co2 tank or take the baking soda approach.

btw tao do you know anything about electrical work? i want to make more sockets so that my fans lights and pumps aren't all draining from the same one(even though the sockets i want to make will be on the same circuit). if i'm using 6 sockets on one circuit, would i be able to pull more power than using all the devices on one socket? in other words, aside from keeping the cords from getting hot, would i be able to pull more juice from more sockets even though i'm still only using one circuit? would creating another circuit require another line all the way to the breaker?

i could google these things, but i'm a busy man

 

[TaoWolf]

I'm definitely not the person to ask about anything electrical - but there is a current thread going on here entitled something like 'electrician here to answer your questions' that could probably get you going in the right direction.

 

[ScrogThis]

I'm semi-literate regarding electrical issues (was a marine electrician for many years) and I'll try to help. The number of sockets is insignificant, it boils down to total load on the circuit. If the circuit is 15 amp that's all you can pull as it's protected from current overload by the circuit breaker (hopefully). Older trailer/manufactured housing wiring is typically 14ga aluminum and will present a fire hazard if overloaded. Try to split the load over a couple of circuits but consider anything else that may be on that same circuit as well (may not even be in the same room). You can test that by grabbing a small fan, lamp, etc. and checking outlets, lights and such with one breaker at a time shut off, make a list. Adding a new circuit would require a "home run" or pull back to the main breaker panel and installation of an additional breaker but assumes the panel is not already at capacity, in that case consult a qualified electrician to evaluate. If you have an used circuit, say a dryer outlet but no dryer, it could possibly be reallocated to fit your needs. Hope that helps, best of luck.

@TaoWolf I'd enjoy discussing the viability of biospheres with you however we should probably take it to another thread. Nothing but respect, peace.

 

[Mikov]

I'm semi-literate regarding electrical issues (was a marine electrician for many years) and I'll try to help. The number of sockets is insignificant, it boils down to total load on the circuit. If the circuit is 15 amp that's all you can pull as it's protected from current overload by the circuit breaker (hopefully). Older trailer/manufactured housing wiring is typically 14ga aluminum and will present a fire hazard if overloaded. Try to split the load over a couple of circuits but consider anything else that may be on that same circuit as well (may not even be in the same room). You can test that by grabbing a small fan, lamp, etc. and checking outlets, lights and such with one breaker at a time shut off, make a list. Adding a new circuit would require a "home run" or pull back to the main breaker panel and installation of an additional breaker but assumes the panel is not already at capacity, in that case consult a qualified electrician to evaluate. If you have an used circuit, say a dryer outlet but no dryer, it could possibly be reallocated to fit your needs. Hope that helps, best of luck.

@TaoWolf I'd enjoy discussing the viability of biospheres with you however we should probably take it to another thread. Nothing but respect, peace.

i see. would you happen to know how i would go about checking to see if the breaker panel is maxed out? and how many more amps i can pull through it?

 

[ScrogThis]

Easy as can be brother. Go to your breaker panel and see if you have any open spots for additional breakers if its full then game over. If you do have some open slots take a look at the sticker on the inside of the panel door, and check the capacity of the panel. Add up all your existing breakers (20 amp + 30 amp, etc.) and see if it meets (or exceeds) the rating on the sticker, if so game over. The maximum additional amperage that you can pull through it will be the difference between the rating on the sticker and the sum of the existing breakers. Hope that helps.

 

[Mikov]

Easy as can be brother. Go to your breaker panel and see if you have any open spots for additional breakers if its full then game over. If you do have some open slots take a look at the sticker on the inside of the panel door, and check the capacity of the panel. Add up all your existing breakers (20 amp + 30 amp, etc.) and see if it meets (or exceeds) the rating on the sticker, if so game over. The maximum additional amperage that you can pull through it will be the difference between the rating on the sticker and the sum of the existing breakers. Hope that helps.

very helpful thanks scrog!

 

[ScrogThis]

NP, if you are unsure, please ask! Don't guess and fry yourself!

 

[Mikov]

NP, if you are unsure, please ask! Don't guess and fry yourself!

no worries. i checked the breaker panels i'd have access to, and each one of them only has 5 or 6 breakers installed, out of the 20 or 30 slots each panel has, so good deal!

would it be dangerous to install a breaker while the breaker panel is in use? i know that sounds like a dumb question but i don't think i'll be able to shut it off as i have no idea how. if i simply turn off all the switches, would it be safe to open it up and install my breaker and my wiring? wearing rubber gloves would keep me out of harms way 100% i think