ohnothimagin
Well-Known Member
No Drama hit the nail on the head.
Here's the link to Carlin's performance:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acLW1vFO-2Q
Here's the link to Carlin's performance:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acLW1vFO-2Q
Corruption.
- Thread starter Dolce Vita
- Start date
RickWhite
Well-Known Member
I've got to say, I really don't see Government, or anyone else, being that much of an intrusion in my life. Sure, cops are dicks and taxes are a bitch, but what is the big freaking deal? You guys ought to try living in Saudi Arabia or China if you want to know about government oppression.
Our opinions say something about where we stand, and it is clear that many people here are experiencing a lot of difficulty and do not feel in control of their lives. Clearly, this is the source of many of the negative thoughts expressed above.
Has it occurred to you that it might be your choices and your conduct that is holding you down and not the government? I know it might make you feel validated to hear others here agree that all your problems are the fault of the government but have you also considered the one thing you all have in common - that you are all pot smokers?
Do you really not see the correlation between lack of productivity and pot smoking? Probably 80% of the people here indicate that their life is a lot less than they would like. Now, I have no problem with responsible, productive adults smoking pot, or even content, self sufficient slackers smoking pot. What I do have a problem with are those who get high and do nothing while bitching about how their miserable life is everyone's fault but their own and pushing for social programs that do nothing but expand government and spread their misery to the rest of us.
Look, you have two choices. You can smoke weed, do nothing and piss and moan on the internet about how "the man" is keeping you down. Or, you can say "fuck the man," get up off your ass and go out and earn some "fuck you money." Fuck you money, is what you have when you have enough money so that you don't care about what the government is doing because it doesn't affect you. It is when you can say "fuck you" to just about anything life throws at you because lets face it, there are few problems a million dollars won't solve.
Now I'm not saying we all have to be wealthy, just that your outlook in life changes when you don't have to worry about not having enough money to replace a set of tires or get your breaks fixed. With personal responsibility comes a sense of freedom and of being able to walk down the street with your head held high. You feel like a more complete and confidant person, you do not fear life's small financial burdens and you find no need to concern your self with some imagined evil plot designed by some elite ruling class.
Our opinions say something about where we stand, and it is clear that many people here are experiencing a lot of difficulty and do not feel in control of their lives. Clearly, this is the source of many of the negative thoughts expressed above.
Has it occurred to you that it might be your choices and your conduct that is holding you down and not the government? I know it might make you feel validated to hear others here agree that all your problems are the fault of the government but have you also considered the one thing you all have in common - that you are all pot smokers?
Do you really not see the correlation between lack of productivity and pot smoking? Probably 80% of the people here indicate that their life is a lot less than they would like. Now, I have no problem with responsible, productive adults smoking pot, or even content, self sufficient slackers smoking pot. What I do have a problem with are those who get high and do nothing while bitching about how their miserable life is everyone's fault but their own and pushing for social programs that do nothing but expand government and spread their misery to the rest of us.
Look, you have two choices. You can smoke weed, do nothing and piss and moan on the internet about how "the man" is keeping you down. Or, you can say "fuck the man," get up off your ass and go out and earn some "fuck you money." Fuck you money, is what you have when you have enough money so that you don't care about what the government is doing because it doesn't affect you. It is when you can say "fuck you" to just about anything life throws at you because lets face it, there are few problems a million dollars won't solve.
Now I'm not saying we all have to be wealthy, just that your outlook in life changes when you don't have to worry about not having enough money to replace a set of tires or get your breaks fixed. With personal responsibility comes a sense of freedom and of being able to walk down the street with your head held high. You feel like a more complete and confidant person, you do not fear life's small financial burdens and you find no need to concern your self with some imagined evil plot designed by some elite ruling class.
Dude you talk out of both sides of your mouth, you might have a career as a politician in the future. If pot makes you lazy and unproductive, then you cannot be a productive adult smoking pot, you must be a lazy slacker smoking pot. You can't have it both ways, you can't make a correlation that pot is what makes people unproductive. What makes them unproductive is the fact that they have always been given everything in life, never having to work for anything. I am sure you can agree that those people who had to work for what they had are still hard working now, even IF they smoke reefer. There are plenty of people who would be lazy slackers without smoking pot, we all know someone.
ancap
Active Member
Iraq civilian death toll estimated anywhere from 100,000 lives to 655,000 lives by 2006 depending on the study. We could start with those genocidal figures, or is the fact that rickwhite has not felt the effects of govt intrusion make this a universally closed case?
(Washington Post, Washington Post,)
Discussing government expansion is a discussion of ethics, rickwhite. Your experiential claims seem way out of place in this type of conversation. You make a myriad of conclusions about people's lives without ever asking them about their lives, minimize the conversation about government expansion, but then cast government expansion as a negative in your fourth paragraph. Why did you post here? Should we rather talk about something that is more important to you? Would you like to address someone directly, or are you going to continue making broad assumptions about almost everybody?
Purplekrunchie
Well-Known Member
The supreme court has to be corrupt too with a ruling such as this, we are in big trouble my friends.
I do know of the ruling which you speak, I was astounded.
Rob Roy
Well-Known Member
Sorry Rick W. government IS everywhere, literally from the moment a person is born, government is there.
The parents of a child likely asked permission to procreate via a blood test and marriage license. A child is born...what's the first thing that happens, they slap a S/S # on him and the birth isn't official until it's recorded by a birth certificate. More than likely the kid was delivered by a doctor, who has to be licensed or he faces jail time. If the birth was paid for, surely there was a tax involved. People that come to visit the parents and the newborn at the hospital must have gotten there somehow. They probably hopped in a car, that they were taxed on when they bought it, of course the car requires registration and state inspection too. On their way there they probably stopped and bought some gas, paying a tax along the way, maybe they took a toll road too? I hope they were buckled in, wouldn't want to get a ticket. Maybe the visitors decided to get the baby a gift, they get to pay a sales tax on that. Anyway one of the visitors probably stepped outside for a cigarette, that is if you can still legally smoke outside a hospital, bet he paid a tax on that cigarette though huh? The kid's only hours old and already the government is impacting / directing his life. I could go on, but I think my point is made. Nearly everywhere a person looks today government is there, and it ain't getting better.
As far as fuck you money, the more you make the more they want, so who's getting fucked?
The parents of a child likely asked permission to procreate via a blood test and marriage license. A child is born...what's the first thing that happens, they slap a S/S # on him and the birth isn't official until it's recorded by a birth certificate. More than likely the kid was delivered by a doctor, who has to be licensed or he faces jail time. If the birth was paid for, surely there was a tax involved. People that come to visit the parents and the newborn at the hospital must have gotten there somehow. They probably hopped in a car, that they were taxed on when they bought it, of course the car requires registration and state inspection too. On their way there they probably stopped and bought some gas, paying a tax along the way, maybe they took a toll road too? I hope they were buckled in, wouldn't want to get a ticket. Maybe the visitors decided to get the baby a gift, they get to pay a sales tax on that. Anyway one of the visitors probably stepped outside for a cigarette, that is if you can still legally smoke outside a hospital, bet he paid a tax on that cigarette though huh? The kid's only hours old and already the government is impacting / directing his life. I could go on, but I think my point is made. Nearly everywhere a person looks today government is there, and it ain't getting better.
As far as fuck you money, the more you make the more they want, so who's getting fucked?
RickWhite
Well-Known Member
Has it occurred to you guys how much better your lives would be if you spent your time and energy thinking of ways to improve your lot instead of imagining black CIA helicopters all these other wacky ideas you have about the government?
I mean really, how can it not be clear to you guys that 8 of 10 posters here are stereotypical slackers who blame everyone but themselves for their lot in life?
Exactly what countries do you think are so superior to the US and why don't you move there?
I mean really, how can it not be clear to you guys that 8 of 10 posters here are stereotypical slackers who blame everyone but themselves for their lot in life?
Exactly what countries do you think are so superior to the US and why don't you move there?
Near
Active Member
When RickWhite is the voice of reason... Jesus Christ.
ancap
Active Member
Where does your aggression come from? It seems like you might be projecting. Who hurt you?
lol No it's not. It's more like someone who keeps getting teeth pulled without novacaine and expecting it not to hurt.
you've made some very good responses in this thread. I don't agree with them but this one caught my eye.
ancap
Active Member
Someone would perform such an action with unrealistic expectations of outcomes only if they were A) utterly insane or B) indoctrinated with a mythology that moved them to justify previous painful results as an anomaly that future teeth pulling would prove as such. I don't believe everyone in society is completely insane; I don't think 5% of them are completely insane. Therefore, if it is a mythology that they believe, it was surely inflicted on them as children since babies are not born with falsehoods and mythologies, which are cultural.
Don't get thrown off (not assuming you were or weren't) by my AIDS analogy. There are imperfections in the analogy such as the degree to which these cultural mythologies were "infected" by an external source, which I don't really believe to be the case in the grand sense. WE are the state. Our mythologies give the state their power. It is not the state we should be fighting, but our mythologies that were inflicted upon us as children by our families and perpetuated by the state through a variety of means. If we continue to vote for positive societal changes by allowing people to use violence to solve these problems, then we are playing right into the mythology rather than shirking the mythology and disproving the mythology itself. To vote not correctly, but at all is to continue pulling your teeth out. To understand that what you are participating in is violent and destructive is the beginning of understanding the mythology that is enslaving you, and thus the beginning of setting yourself free from it's grip.
Does that make any sense, or did I go off the rails somewhere? It is entirely possible.
Mr.KushMan
Well-Known Member
People understanding that we are all equal, like Ghandi, John Lennon, Jesus, ect.ect. all of whom were assassinated during peaceful non cooperation.
These fundamental principals that all must follow, the suns rays meet each man regardless of faith, the water flows to the benign and malignant alike, and the air meets every face without financial consideration. Why is it that the mind that is influenced only by what we share is subject to propriety?
If you look back on history the beginning of war was precipitated by the settling of land. When fences cross eachother, begins the point that neither can grow. When borders are built, so are fears, fear for life, fear for lack of comfort, fear of wasted power or control.
By a common understanding of all men, that we are equal. Now when someone breaks the fundamental rights of another, consequences must be met, each person must be entitled to every thing that you hope to have, rights, freedom to move, a voice. If you deserve life then so does every other man, in no other species do equals kill eachother for personal gain, no other species commits necrophilia(its the last thing they think when they see a dead being), no other species commits cannabilism. Clearly not all will sign on, but when enough do, peaceful non cooperation will be the way into enlightenment for society.
Peace
These fundamental principals that all must follow, the suns rays meet each man regardless of faith, the water flows to the benign and malignant alike, and the air meets every face without financial consideration. Why is it that the mind that is influenced only by what we share is subject to propriety?
If you look back on history the beginning of war was precipitated by the settling of land. When fences cross eachother, begins the point that neither can grow. When borders are built, so are fears, fear for life, fear for lack of comfort, fear of wasted power or control.
By a common understanding of all men, that we are equal. Now when someone breaks the fundamental rights of another, consequences must be met, each person must be entitled to every thing that you hope to have, rights, freedom to move, a voice. If you deserve life then so does every other man, in no other species do equals kill eachother for personal gain, no other species commits necrophilia(its the last thing they think when they see a dead being), no other species commits cannabilism. Clearly not all will sign on, but when enough do, peaceful non cooperation will be the way into enlightenment for society.
Peace
ancap
Active Member
I agree with some of what you said (i.e. equality within humanity) and disagree with other parts of what you said (i.e. no other species commits cannibalism or exploits others within its species). I'm confused about your use of the phrase "peaceful non cooperation"; maybe you can tell me more. I am, however, lost as to how any of your reply answers my question. Maybe I'm not comprehending something elemental in your answer. Perhaps you can help me out...
Mr.KushMan
Well-Known Member
Satyagraha, it is a fairly simple philosophy.
Peace
Peace
ancap
Active Member
So if I understand, you are going to peacefully resist the free exchange of goods and services? Please walk me through what there is to resist in voluntarism. Feel free to explain real thoroughly so I can understand (this was a really short winded answer).
Mr.KushMan
Well-Known Member
As stated before free market is not volunteerism. You must decide which dictator you want to work for, if not you starve or die.
When you are born with nothing, you will inevitably die with nothing. It doesn't require small amounts of people, it requires a critical mass, so much so that the system can't support or maintain itself. People already don't trust the water in most states, this is the initial signs of upheaval. Entropy is a term that describes the breaking down of all systems, eventually this one will too.
There is an abundance of information out there if you want to do the reading, I can't keep reiterating myself, if you don't want to believe it you won't, there are always modes of rationalization that will lead you back to where you started. If you simply open your mind beyond what the media tells you, which seems to act as an unofficial PR department of the Government, you will see the folly in the way things are set up.
Maybe a few trips with acid or mescaline will aid in your discovery, surely I can't.
Peace
When you are born with nothing, you will inevitably die with nothing. It doesn't require small amounts of people, it requires a critical mass, so much so that the system can't support or maintain itself. People already don't trust the water in most states, this is the initial signs of upheaval. Entropy is a term that describes the breaking down of all systems, eventually this one will too.
There is an abundance of information out there if you want to do the reading, I can't keep reiterating myself, if you don't want to believe it you won't, there are always modes of rationalization that will lead you back to where you started. If you simply open your mind beyond what the media tells you, which seems to act as an unofficial PR department of the Government, you will see the folly in the way things are set up.
Maybe a few trips with acid or mescaline will aid in your discovery, surely I can't.
Peace
ancap
Active Member
The free market by definition is voluntarism. You cannot have a free market without voluntarism. In fact, historically when society is granted a level of freedom by government or acquires freedom by escaping government, people naturally begin to use currency to buy and trade goods and services. Government did not create currency; society created currency. The free market also doubled your expected lifespan and gave you everything you didn't have when you lived in the jungles. Perhaps if I took acid or mescaline like you suggest, I would be able to understand your position much better. However, I would have to purchase those drugs from the free market first.
I understand why it is difficult for you to answer my question. You seem to be at odds with your own ideology. On one hand you say that you will not advocate the use of coercive force. On the other hand you say that you will not allow a man to offer his items for sale. It is a contradiction that you have refused to deal with in this conversation. How will you keep this man from voluntarily trading his items without using coercive force against him and against those who want to purchase from him? It is a very simple question. Your latest answer was, "I will peacefully resist". Well, that my friend is participating in the free market. Maybe you can help me understand by explaining what you mean by "peacefully resist". I think a direct answer would also be helpful. Debating someone by telling them to go read other material is not helpful to this conversation. A fundamental problem exists when a man claims to believe in something that he cannot explain clearly and succinctly in plain english, but rather refers the questioner to other sources that he believes can explain it better.
Will you please deal with the contradiction dilemma I have brought up?
Mr.KushMan
Well-Known Member
Just like I said, if you need food go and take it. If you need a home, go and squat.
Nothing is made by the free market system, it is made by people. People are all equal and share everything with everyone, unless you have something you need. There is no ownership, there is no system to participate in. Just being, its a matter of freedom. Certain people participate in certain ways, and others do other things.
Me personally, if I had the resources to produce mescaline and acid. I would give it away for near nothing, maybe food or gas money, but being in a market system one is forced to do illegal acts thus driving up the cost from risks involved. If food was produced by the people, and given to the people, everyone would eat. I mean this is a country where people are going starving, and others are eating a full meal and going to the washroom and puking it out.
When one owns all the property, they say you can work for this much and you can buy this for this much, so you are "born into bondage", and the only way to escape it is to completely submit to fascist rule, and even then there aren't any guarantees.
And you keep saying I am not helping you, your not helping yourself. I have clearly expressed myself over and over, and you keep coming back with the same talking points. Maybe it is your dissonance that is creating the contradiction.
Peace
EDIT: I would advocate the removal of currency, currency is used to insure that you will be able to stock without the need to house the products. But if a common understanding is reached between all, no one will need insurance. No regulation, no money, no corruption.
EDIT EDIT: In a free market there is no money in abundance. Even if something exists they may hide it, or produce it with obsolescent designs. Where as the system I would advocate, no person has a purpose to hoard. If you have access to alot of drugs, ok, but the people would continue to produce. Why do we need 100 different models of the same fucking TV? Why not get the greatest minds together in one building, rather than competing for the nicest car, they work together combining technological know how that is "under patent". I mean there will never be utopia, just to the best of our collective knowledge.
And your comment about currency being used is true, but only with real currency. When the gold standard was abolished, the money lost its value. Now no currency in the world can outgrow in term of the cost in gold. The price of gold will never diminish lower than the cost of the currency, even if the supply of gold went way up. If that makes sense to you. Makes you wonder why all these companies are buying gold by the truckload, like money4gold, and dollars4gold, and cash4gold.
More simply every 'money' supply has inflation added, the only way to drop the inflation is by increasing the overall output of the country. So you have to continuously work harder for less, to have your money worth more. Or work for nothing. Or install machines to do all the labour and people won't have money to eat. Pretty simple in my opinion.
EDIT EDIT EDIT: After reading Plato's Socratic Symposium, I came to the conclusion that a system that embraces love as its primal tenant, would exclude no one while allowing absolute volunteerism. At the same time abolishing war with the proverbial statement, "Make love not war."
EDITEDITEDITEDIT: Watch 'Goodfellas' minus the violence, case and point.(The black market can provide at infinitum and still provide the above-board market.)
Nothing is made by the free market system, it is made by people. People are all equal and share everything with everyone, unless you have something you need. There is no ownership, there is no system to participate in. Just being, its a matter of freedom. Certain people participate in certain ways, and others do other things.
Me personally, if I had the resources to produce mescaline and acid. I would give it away for near nothing, maybe food or gas money, but being in a market system one is forced to do illegal acts thus driving up the cost from risks involved. If food was produced by the people, and given to the people, everyone would eat. I mean this is a country where people are going starving, and others are eating a full meal and going to the washroom and puking it out.
When one owns all the property, they say you can work for this much and you can buy this for this much, so you are "born into bondage", and the only way to escape it is to completely submit to fascist rule, and even then there aren't any guarantees.
And you keep saying I am not helping you, your not helping yourself. I have clearly expressed myself over and over, and you keep coming back with the same talking points. Maybe it is your dissonance that is creating the contradiction.
Peace
EDIT: I would advocate the removal of currency, currency is used to insure that you will be able to stock without the need to house the products. But if a common understanding is reached between all, no one will need insurance. No regulation, no money, no corruption.
EDIT EDIT: In a free market there is no money in abundance. Even if something exists they may hide it, or produce it with obsolescent designs. Where as the system I would advocate, no person has a purpose to hoard. If you have access to alot of drugs, ok, but the people would continue to produce. Why do we need 100 different models of the same fucking TV? Why not get the greatest minds together in one building, rather than competing for the nicest car, they work together combining technological know how that is "under patent". I mean there will never be utopia, just to the best of our collective knowledge.
And your comment about currency being used is true, but only with real currency. When the gold standard was abolished, the money lost its value. Now no currency in the world can outgrow in term of the cost in gold. The price of gold will never diminish lower than the cost of the currency, even if the supply of gold went way up. If that makes sense to you. Makes you wonder why all these companies are buying gold by the truckload, like money4gold, and dollars4gold, and cash4gold.
More simply every 'money' supply has inflation added, the only way to drop the inflation is by increasing the overall output of the country. So you have to continuously work harder for less, to have your money worth more. Or work for nothing. Or install machines to do all the labour and people won't have money to eat. Pretty simple in my opinion.
EDIT EDIT EDIT: After reading Plato's Socratic Symposium, I came to the conclusion that a system that embraces love as its primal tenant, would exclude no one while allowing absolute volunteerism. At the same time abolishing war with the proverbial statement, "Make love not war."
EDITEDITEDITEDIT: Watch 'Goodfellas' minus the violence, case and point.(The black market can provide at infinitum and still provide the above-board market.)
ancap
Active Member
To me this is like saying, "snowy weather doesn't make snowballs, people make snowballs." You are technically correct, but it is the snowy weather that creates the atmosphere for snowballs to be made. The free market system is not an imposed system. It is just two or more parties trading goods or currency freely with each other. A free market happens when people are free. Other non coercive systems can operate in a free market; they are not mutually exclusive.
There are "Illegal acts" because there is a state, not because there is a free market. The free market does not impose anything involuntarily.
The free market does not stop someone from growing excess food and giving it away. Why can't people do this now?
Actually, businesses and industries compete for employees on almost every level, which is an upward force on wages. Operational efficiency push wages down, but a balance must be reached to maintain satisfaction in the market. The more skilled a person is, the more his time is worth in trade. Additionally, it is the consumer who decides what they want on the store shelves, not the business. The business must bow to the consumer by constantly trying to fully meet the needs of the consumer. In a statist/capitalist, cronyism situation, a business might use the power and resources of the state to force the consumer to bow to them. This is not a free market. A "corporation" is a state enforced blanket of protection on a business and it's executives that would not exist in the free market.
You've said a lot, but you still have not answered my fundamental question, at least not where I can see. I'll try again to ask the same question in a different way in the next paragraph.
Would you advocate removing this currency by using coercive force? Would you jail or kill a man for using a currency? If so, how are you not advocating a system of coercion? If not, what is your strategy for removing the currency? If you only respond to one question, please respond to this.
In your ideal society, what person should be given the power to decide what all other people need?
Real currency is the only kind of currency I am talking about. Just because a government monopolizes the currency and destroys it, does not mean that currency is the cause of your diagnosis. Just because a man beats a dog until it becomes dangerous and aggressive, does not mean that all dogs are dangerous and aggressive. A free market would have competing currencies with ensurances of stability by the currency providers, and a universalized system of currency trading. It would be far superior than the fiat currency we have today.