So the Obama Administration is okay with other countries encroaching our borders. . .

[lopezri]

I'm just curious to know how many people here on RIU.org are okay with the borders of the United States being encroached by all the rest of the world?

If you are okay with this, could you please state your stance?
If you aren't okay with this, what is wrong with just letting ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS come into our country anytime they want without any consequences for breaking laws of the United States?

Let's keep this a rational debate, people. . . I truly would like to get an understanding of the issue from all sides.

 

[Mr.KushMan]

Why would letting them in make them immune to law?

Like I stated in another thread.....If they want in they will find a way. Just like with drugs, terrorism or masturbation.

Neo-Conservatism theory states that to have a society, the society must have an enemy image. To create something that you fight in your mind is a practice in futility, and just a illusion to keep you from the real problems that have been systematically created.

Peace

 

[kendothegreenwizard]

I am all for Militarization of our borders to stop the rampant drug smuggling, illegal immigration, kidnapping in southern states and crime that is perpetrated on American citizens.

 

[Balzac89]

Who cares they just want a job like everyone else.

 

[dukeofbaja]

I am all for Militarization of our borders to stop the rampant drug smuggling, illegal immigration, kidnapping in southern states and crime that is perpetrated on American citizens.

I am with you on securing the border....maybe not full scale militarization, but definitely need to stomp down on kidnapping/human smuggling and simply prevent/mitigate the illegal immigration issue altogether.

That said, a lot of the illegal population got here legally and have simply overstayed their visas. They often speak English, are assimilated, work, pay taxes, and follow all other laws. I want to favor all out amnesty for these folks, perhaps on a case by case basis, but would have no problem forcing them to pay a fine for overstaying, or perhaps even coming in illegally altogether.

There is a lot more to the issue than what I have just stated, but those are the thoughts off the top of my stoned head for now

 

[lopezri]

Why would letting them in make them immune to law?

Like I stated in another thread.....If they want in they will find a way. Just like with drugs, terrorism or masturbation.

Neo-Conservatism theory states that to have a society, the society must have an enemy image. To create something that you fight in your mind is a practice in futility, and just a illusion to keep you from the real problems that have been systematically created.

Peace

Okay, I get that. . . so what are the real problems that have been systematically created then? How is allowing ILLEGAL ALIENS to encroach on the borders of the U.S. create this "illusion"?

 

[lopezri]

I am all for Militarization of our borders to stop the rampant drug smuggling, illegal immigration, kidnapping in southern states and crime that is perpetrated on American citizens.

I can agree with that, but how do we fix the problem with the illegal aliens that are already here?

 

[lopezri]

Who cares they just want a job like everyone else.

So does this mean that YOU are willing to give up YOUR job so that an illegal alien can have it to support his/her family in Mexico or Canada?

 

[lopezri]

I am with you on securing the border....maybe not full scale militarization, but definitely need to stomp down on kidnapping/human smuggling and simply prevent/mitigate the illegal immigration issue altogether.

That said, a lot of the illegal population got here legally and have simply overstayed their visas. They often speak English, are assimilated, work, pay taxes, and follow all other laws. I want to favor all out amnesty for these folks, perhaps on a case by case basis, but would have no problem forcing them to pay a fine for overstaying, or perhaps even coming in illegally altogether.

So if they just get amnesty, should they also get back all the taxes they paid into the system under somebody elses social security number, or do those taxes just stay in the system and the illegal immigrants that have been assimilated have to start all over? Does the person that legally owns their illegally acquired social security number get to apply those taxes to their credit on income tax? Does the government get to keep it and just use it as if they had been paying the cost of healthcare for the illegal immigrants all these years?

 

[dukeofbaja]

So if they just get amnesty, should they also get back all the taxes they paid into the system under somebody elses social security number, or do those taxes just stay in the system and the illegal immigrants that have been assimilated have to start all over? Does the person that legally owns their illegally acquired social security number get to apply those taxes to their credit on income tax? Does the government get to keep it and just use it as if they had been paying the cost of healthcare for the illegal immigrants all these years?

All really good questions, most of them above my head as far as ramifications go. Maybe that's the fine, we keep what they paid in and they start over legally this time.

And for what you asked Balzac, I would say if the illegal wants my job, let them prove they compete for it. That's why capitalism is the least abhorrent system I know of in its results, because it promotes competition. But I am a bit biased, as I did just take work away from Mexicans (whether they be legal or not).

 

[Balzac89]

uhhhh i'm pretty sure a dehydrated, half naked guy that doesn't speak english and just wandered out of the desert is not qualified enough to have my job.......so idc. lol

 

[lopezri]

All really good questions, most of them above my head as far as ramifications go. Maybe that's the fine, we keep what they paid in and they start over legally this time.

And for what you asked Balzac, I would say if the illegal wants my job, let them prove they compete for it. That's why capitalism is the least abhorrent system I know of in its results, because it promotes competition. But I am a bit biased, as I did just take work away from Mexicans (whether they be legal or not).

So you're saying that you worked hard to get your job, you've proved that you deserve this job over an illegal alien that would qualify for the position if they receive U.S. equal employment entitlements if the administration employed amnesty? Is that a correct interpretation?

 

[Nitegazer]

Countries are all about boarders; agreed. That is one of the reasons they are flawed.

 

[lopezri]

uhhhh i'm pretty sure a dehydrated, half naked guy that doesn't speak english and just wandered out of the desert is not qualified enough to have my job.......so idc. lol

So you're assuming that it is someone coming in from the desert? I feel a hint of bigotry in your statement. It's not stated but it is there.

Remember, that dehydrated, half naked, desert roamer gets "free" healthcare to get them back to health that YOU PAID through FICA and State Taxes (if you have any, if not, then your community corporations pay for it, which means less raises for you) and then they can stay here and TAKE your job. Remember, there are a ton of illegal immigrants that are already stealing jobs from U.S. citizens because they will do it for less, without following the laws of the U.S. Ever been to a stone cutters shop in California? How about any landscaping company's with all English speaking laborers?

 

[lopezri]

Countries are all about boarders; agreed. That is one of the reasons they are flawed.

What is flawed? Countries? Borders? or the people and country leaders (Obama, Mexico leaders, Canada leaders)?

 

[Nitegazer]

What is flawed? Countries? Borders? or the people and country leaders (Obama, Mexico leaders, Canada leaders)?

What's flawed is that something that was created to protect people from harm (countries) requires the continuous use of force (protect boarders, maintain police, prisons, armed military, etc.) to exist. It's incarnate irony.

The problem is, that it becomes very easy to see people (immigrants) as a thing or concept instead of individuals.

Ok, so a reasonable concern is that my taxes are too high. I like my money and don't like the government taking it away. Right now the press is telling us that the money is being 'wasted' on things like benefits for illegal aliens. So, I'm supposed to take out my anger at losing my money on a group of people, conveniently outside of government control. Just think about it. How much of your money is being 'wasted' in this way? How much money is your government taking from you? I think our patsy is a whole bunch of 'aliens'.

 

[dukeofbaja]

So you're saying that you worked hard to get your job, you've proved that you deserve this job over an illegal alien that would qualify for the position if they receive U.S. equal employment entitlements if the administration employed amnesty? Is that a correct interpretation?

I think you missed a word here, it is hard to tell what you were exactly asking. But I think I got the gist of it and yes, I would have no problem competing for my employment in an equal opportunity employment atmosphere. I work harder, it is a work ethic I learned from.....drumroll please......THE MEXICANS!

I have worked about 10 jobs in office type settings with a pretty representative workforce, and I have worked 3 manual labor type jobs (so far) side by side with purely Spanish speaking, and sometimes illegal, Mexican workers. Guess which jobs I had to bust ass just to keep up?

Hint: It wasn't the office jobs

 

[Balzac89]

these jobs you speak of they are so great.

 

[lopezri]

What's flawed is that something that was created to protect people from harm (countries) requires the continuous use of force (protect boarders, maintain police, prisons, armed military, etc.) to exist. It's incarnate irony.

The problem is, that it becomes very easy to see people (immigrants) as a thing or concept instead of individuals.

Ok, so a reasonable concern is that my taxes are too high. I like my money and don't like the government taking it away. Right now the press is telling us that the money is being 'wasted' on things like benefits for illegal aliens. So, I'm supposed to take out my anger at losing my money on a group of people, conveniently outside of government control. Just think about it. How much of your money is being 'wasted' in this way? How much money is your government taking from you? I think our patsy is a whole bunch of 'aliens'.

Well, I definitely see them as people. ALL of my ancestors are from somewhere else. Aren't they all? So why are aliens entitled to everything that my ancestors came here for and worked so hard for? Why is it okay for them to be "johnnycomelatelys" and get everything that our whole heritage has been working so hard to obtain for over 200 years? If they couldn't do it for their country, what makes you think they can do it for the U.S.? I understand that this is the land of opportunity, but the opportunity is to have your freedoms to work hard, believe in your own God, and succeed on your own, not to come in and take everything away from everybody else that did the work to get there. AND EVERY country eventually has to say STOP, we have enough now. There is no more room at the inn! There is no more food or money either. IF doctors WANT to provide healthcare under the Hippocratic Oath without using taxpayer monies, that's fine. It's their labor they are giving away. My labors aren't free. . . I work so I can aquire and attain things I want. Let them do the same.

So I definitely see them as people, just as I see legal U.S. citizens as people. Why is it okay for them to have everything that we've worked for but it isn't okay for us to have everything the rest of the world has worked for? The U.S. gives, and gives, and gives. . . but nobody ever seems to want to give anything else back.

 

[lopezri]

What's flawed is that something that was created to protect people from harm (countries) requires the continuous use of force (protect boarders, maintain police, prisons, armed military, etc.) to exist. It's incarnate irony.

The problem is, that it becomes very easy to see people (immigrants) as a thing or concept instead of individuals.

Ok, so a reasonable concern is that my taxes are too high. I like my money and don't like the government taking it away. Right now the press is telling us that the money is being 'wasted' on things like benefits for illegal aliens. So, I'm supposed to take out my anger at losing my money on a group of people, conveniently outside of government control. Just think about it. How much of your money is being 'wasted' in this way? How much money is your government taking from you? I think our patsy is a whole bunch of 'aliens'.

Also, NOTE that you NEVER use the word ILLEGAL in your argument. I'm fine with LEGAL IMMIGRANTS. They've worked hard to earn their keep here and they understand the concepts of our laws and ideals of our founding fathers.

You fail to understand that they are ILLEGAL - THEY ARE BREAKING THE LAWS THAT U.S. CITIZENS ARE EXPECTED TO FOLLOW to avoid imprisonment. Why should they not have the same standards for them?