Root Development vs Plant Growth

[tahoe58]

the Coles Notes version....that'd take some doin'

 

[Wavels]

LOL

This is a really boffo thread!!
I always wondered why I never read much about the small (soil) container growing of ganja. I have known that it can work quite well for years!

I never really focused on all of the plants I grew out in small containers; I simply considered them to be my "red-headed, freckled face step daughters"!

I have decided to see what I can do with my leftover plants in the 16 oz styro cups from my next indoor grow (starting in a week or so).
I am now motivated to see what I can do to max out the yield with constant TLC.
One of my plans will be to not cut off any of the lower branches, and to try and align them sideways to the light to force fat buds on ALL of the lower branches.
This is gonna be a gas!

 

[skunkushybrid]

Thanks wavels... i'm sure with your experience you'll pull it off. Like you said, as they were in smaller pots you tended to think of them as smaller plants, maybe never giving them the attention that you give to the bigger plants.

Also, i bet you chose the biggest and best looking plants for the potting up.

I spoke to another guy not too long ago that carried a plant through to harvest in a small pot, but he insisted the plant was smaller than the bigger pots. After a little more questioning I found out the reason this plant was in a smaller pot is because it was a runt. He still got around 1/2 oz off the plant too.

I got around the frequent waterings by sitting the plants in a gravel tray (no gravel in it), left the pots standing in there (no elevation). And fed through the top, then pour the rest of the feed in the tray where it would sit till they'd drank it. I found I only needed to water twice a week doing it this way. I also had an air stick in there, but this only worked obviously when the gravel tray was fairly full with feed.

I have no special tools like co2, or even an exhaust sytem. All I have is the lights, the nutes and two 18" desk fans. I also have a smaller 7" desk fan that i used to create some more movement in the feed when the tray was full.

 

[Wavels]

Also, i bet you chose the biggest and best looking plants for the potting up.
.

Yes that is quite true, I would select the more vigorous or robust looking seedlings for potting up. I also leave any that I think look like probable males in the little cups.
I have obtained pollen for breeding from males flowering in 16 oz cups.

I will try and keep some superior looking plants in the small containers and see how it goes.

Now I need to decide what to grow.......

 

[pccdrom]

I've given the flush, and they'll sit in that for the next couple of days. Which gives them plenty of time to dry out before harvest. Also to help with the flush i have used Final Phase.

Final Phase, 22.5ml (2.5ml pl)

Do you think Final Phase actually helps with the flush?
Am i right in thinking it helps the plant use up stored nutrients

 

[SnowWhite]

Well I can't make up mind on this one, so I'm just going to have to try it out for myself....

You cited FDD's grows as part of your inspiration and I don't get it. Yeah he has massive plants in realtively small pots....but how do you explain his Warlock being the biggest bitch of them all this season? By a long way from what I could see, and that was in the ground?

I'm currently vegging in 6.5 litre pots. When I flower I will repot at least 1 girl (assuming I have more than one) up into an 11l pot. I will keep any others in the 6.5 litre pots and I'll see how they compare. It will mess up my watering schedule, but I think it will be worth it to see the results. I really want the 6.5l to do their thing and perform the same, but at the moment I'm just not convinced.

Interesting thread though man. Thanks.

 

[skunkushybrid]

I'm not sure. It says that if you add it to a res' that has nutes in it, it'll merely dilute the feed... not eat it away. Which is pretty much what water will do too. I'm not sure if it'll do it any better than water, but a lot of growers swear by this stuff.

Do you think Final Phase actually helps with the flush?
Am i right in thinking it helps the plant use up stored nutrients

 

[SnowWhite]

Also, if you look at the greeshouse seed grows on YouTube, they grow MASSIVE plants in MASSIVE containers. I think 45l or something, I can't quite remember. But I don't think there is ANY way you could achieve the same results in 0.5-1l pot. Seriously....is that what you're saying here??

 

[skunkushybrid]

How long do you veg' for in those pots?

how are you going to give them the same environment if you also have plants in an 11litre pot?

fdd's warlock? Why would I need to explain that?

You think I did all this to convince you? No, I did it to convince myself. Growing, and finding the truth is important to me... I don't make things up.

Well I can't make up mind on this one, so I'm just going to have to try it out for myself....

You cited FDD's grows as part of your inspiration and I don't get it. Yeah he has massive plants in realtively small pots....but how do you explain his Warlock being the biggest bitch of them all this season? By a long way from what I could see, and that was in the ground?

I'm currently vegging in 6.5 litre pots. When I flower I will repot at least 1 girl (assuming I have more than one) up into an 11l pot. I will keep any others in the 6.5 litre pots and I'll see how they compare. It will mess up my watering schedule, but I think it will be worth it to see the results. I really want the 6.5l to do their thing and perform the same, but at the moment I'm just not convinced.

Interesting thread though man. Thanks.

 

[skunkushybrid]

I'm not saying anything, figure it out for yourself... if you can.

Also, if you look at the greeshouse seed grows on YouTube, they grow MASSIVE plants in MASSIVE containers. I think 45l or something, I can't quite remember. But I don't think there is ANY way you could achieve the same results in 0.5-1l pot. Seriously....is that what you're saying here??

 

[LoganSmith]

I'v been looking for that video for days. Thx.

Skunk you are so funny.... I love you man....

 

[SnowWhite]

How long do you veg' for in those pots?

how are you going to give them the same environment if you also have plants in an 11litre pot?

fdd's warlock? Why would I need to explain that?

You think I did all this to convince you? No, I did it to convince myself. Growing, and finding the truth is important to me... I don't make things up.

Around 6 weeks veg in these pots,then I would normally repot and veg for another week. They will be in the same room under the same light, so therefore have the same environment. With the excpetion of one having more space for root growth. I am only talking about 3-4 plants here. I have 2 plants that are growing VERY similar so far. If they both turn out to be female (i'm really hoping so) then they will make ideal test candidates for me.

It's just his Warlock was his biggest plant. and it had unrestricted root growth in the ground. So it makes me question everything about root growth vs plant size. Just my take on it.

I know you did this for your own satisfaction and I find this thread very interesting, so thanks for all the good info. I do really appreciate you documenting all this. Now I just need to try and figure it out for myself. I find this topic very interesting and I want to find out more....that's all.

 

[skunkushybrid]

I have to disagree... the plants will be in different environments as one plant will be higher and therefore have greater access to the light. Also to try and judge seed plants in this manner is asking a lot more than they merely look similar during veg'. Even now, one will be more favoured than the other.

fdd's tree had access to more light... in the pic's I saw it was standing alone and had full access to the sun's rays. His other plants were more huddled together, therefore shading each other out somewhat.

Around 6 weeks veg in these pots,then I would normally repot and veg for another week. They will be in the same room under the same light, so therefore have the same environment. With the excpetion of one having more space for root growth.

 

[skunkushybrid]

How much do you normally yield, dry-weight snowwhite from a 7 week veg' in soil?

 

[SnowWhite]

I have to disagree... the plants will be in different environments as one plant will be higher and therefore have greater access to the light. Also to try and judge seed plants in this manner is asking a lot more than they merely look similar during veg'. Even now, one will be more favoured than the other.

fdd's tree had access to more light... in the pic's I saw it was standing alone and had full access to the sun's rays. His other plants were more huddled together, therefore shading each other out somewhat.

Yeah, but I will rasie the smaller pots up to bring the plants up to the same height away from the light. I have done this before. I don't have a mother and clones yet, so trying this from seed is the best I can do for now. It should give some idea, but I realise it is not a perfect comparison. But if you want to try this from seed and compare results, what else can you do.

Plus, FDD's tree also had more root space

How much do you normally yield, dry-weight snowwhite from a 7 week veg' in soil?

I got 2oz per plant off my first soil grow this year, so that is what I strive to match or beat. They were finished in 15l pots as at the time, I thought bigger was better. I just don't know now and that is what I want to find out.

 

[skunkushybrid]

then explain why having more room for roots to spread out achieves a bigger plant?

Why do roots stretch out in the first place? They stretch out to find their markers... this is why they don't just stop when they find food. I've grown in DWC, the water level was an inch below the pots, yet the roots stretch right out and down as far as they can go. They will keep growing as much as you allow them to grow. Allowing the roots plenty of room, simply means you must give the plants an adequate veg' time to adequately account for the root space. I feel that you would have achieved the same, if not better results from a container a 3rd of the size.

Also, once you switch to flower, the roots will not go down further... the roots will develop and swell, but will not drop further into the medium. I'm not sure at which point this happens in flower... but on one of my dwc grows we had 3 clones in a 90litre fish tank, we only gave them a 12 day veg, and when we harvested, only half the container was filled. The lower half had no root in it whatsoever. It seems that the roots response to the triggering of flower is to stop the search for nutes, and the hope must be that the plant has supplied an adequate network of roots to gain adequate enough nutes to see the plant through flower.

Plus, FDD's tree also had more root space



I got 2oz per plant off my first soil grow this year, so that is what I strive to match or beat. They were finished in 15l pots as at the time, I thought bigger was better. I just don't know now and that is what I want to find out.

 

[skunkushybrid]

Again, we must go to the primary purpose of the root. It is true that the roots must stretch out in search of nutrients and water, but they do not stop when they find it because they like to plan ahead. Once the season changes I believe root stretch is over, and the roots will swell up with stored water and nutrients to be pumped into the plant. The plants with the better access to the right amount of nutrients (or the ones that were allowed to concentrate more on the survival trait that is root development by getting less light, maybe shaded by other plants) will then have as a good a chance of survival as a plant with better access to light (whose root system will not need to be as fully developed).

swings and roundabouts

All life wants to live, to do this it must be vibrant and strong despite the adversity it faces... and it has many tricks up it's sleeve to accomplish it.

By placing my plants in smaller pots did it stunt growth? No. Will I be moving to larger pots? No.

 

[tahoe58]

I think this is an important aspect of the work that we do. objective observation and identification and leveling of the variables. in any science work, the critical point is to manage the process to acheive "comparable" circumstances. this is in many circumstances, very difficult, and can lead to misidentification of roots (no pun intended.....) and causes....

Thanks wavels... i'm sure with your experience you'll pull it off. Like you said, as they were in smaller pots you tended to think of them as smaller plants, maybe never giving them the attention that you give to the bigger plants.

Also, i bet you chose the biggest and best looking plants for the potting up.

I spoke to another guy not too long ago that carried a plant through to harvest in a small pot, but he insisted the plant was smaller than the bigger pots. After a little more questioning I found out the reason this plant was in a smaller pot is because it was a runt. He still got around 1/2 oz off the plant too.

I got around the frequent waterings by sitting the plants in a gravel tray (no gravel in it), left the pots standing in there (no elevation). And fed through the top, then pour the rest of the feed in the tray where it would sit till they'd drank it. I found I only needed to water twice a week doing it this way. I also had an air stick in there, but this only worked obviously when the gravel tray was fairly full with feed.

I have no special tools like co2, or even an exhaust sytem. All I have is the lights, the nutes and two 18" desk fans. I also have a smaller 7" desk fan that i used to create some more movement in the feed when the tray was full.

As above, the separation of the variables, and how we influence them, and subsequently how they influence the outcome is critical....and in biology and other disciplines, rarely if ever are these variable true independent variables, thus making the deduction of cause/effect more complex.

Yes that is quite true, I would select the more vigorous or robust looking seedlings for potting up. I also leave any that I think look like probable males in the little cups.
I have obtained pollen for breeding from males flowering in 16 oz cups.

I will try and keep some superior looking plants in the small containers and see how it goes.

Now I need to decide what to grow.......

in the case of fdd's monstrosity, that root system was large, but was it proportionately as large as you might have exepcted it to be comnsidering the above ground biomass? In my view it was not. the root system pics that he showed did not seem disporportionately largeconsideraing he harvested something like over 4lbs of product from that plant. and I believe this was a direct function of the manner in which he fed that plant. and this was in a circumstances where the "vege" time was left to nature.....so in this case I would see that this plant did exactly what it did for its purposes of survival and was not restricted with imposed limitations of light and space. But that also was fdd's objective....to grow a tree fort....his intent from the beginning was to provide the circumstances to grow the biggest that he could, and so the manner in which he managed that grow was with that in mind.

Yeah, but I will rasie the smaller pots up to bring the plants up to the same height away from the light. I have done this before. I don't have a mother and clones yet, so trying this from seed is the best I can do for now. It should give some idea, but I realise it is not a perfect comparison. But if you want to try this from seed and compare results, what else can you do.

Plus, FDD's tree also had more root space



I got 2oz per plant off my first soil grow this year, so that is what I strive to match or beat. They were finished in 15l pots as at the time, I thought bigger was better. I just don't know now and that is what I want to find out.

I think what this work in general has clearly demonstrated is that there is a threshold of root development that beyond which additional benefit in aboveground production is not realized. and I do not feel that this is that unusual to expect. the capacity of biological systems have certain limitations and threshold in their performance capacity....enhancements can be made, but those limitations are the "physical and chemcial" realities of the biological process that are carried out to make us our beloved bud.

I believe the comment you make regarding the continuation of root growth upon flowering is hugely instructive. this is to me another piece of supportive evidence, that as a biological system, it must partition its resources and energy, as we know these systems rearely do things for shits and giggles....there is a purpose and a drive and they execute it to their best benefit.

then explain why having more room for roots to spread out achieves a bigger plant?

Why do roots stretch out in the first place? They stretch out to find their markers... this is why they don't just stop when they find food. I've grown in DWC, the water level was an inch below the pots, yet the roots stretch right out and down as far as they can go. They will keep growing as much as you allow them to grow. Allowing the roots plenty of room, simply means you must give the plants an adequate veg' time to adequately account for the root space. I feel that you would have achieved the same, if not better results from a container a 3rd of the size.

Also, once you switch to flower, the roots will not go down further... the roots will develop and swell, but will not drop further into the medium. I'm not sure at which point this happens in flower... but on one of my dwc grows we had 3 clones in a 90litre fish tank, we only gave them a 12 day veg, and when we harvested, only half the container was filled. The lower half had no root in it whatsoever. It seems that the roots response to the triggering of flower is to stop the search for nutes, and the hope must be that the plant has supplied an adequate network of roots to gain adequate enough nutes to see the plant through flower.

This is such an important debate and discussion. it certainly has helped me beter understand how we can do a better job of growing our weed!

 

[skunkushybrid]

I have also watched 2 (1 from each tank, on a much smaller dwc grow) plants slowly strangled to death by other cannabis plants. Almost like they were just pushed out of the way of the light up above the medium... cannabilistic, you might say was the roots behaviour below. I chopped the plants and left the root in there.

 

[SnowWhite]

then explain why having more room for roots to spread out achieves a bigger plant?

I just believe that there is a link between root size and plant size. I mean a big plant needs a big root system to support itself, physically I mean, to actually stand up.

I imagine FDDs monster, sorry to keep going on about it as my reference, but I imagine it in exactly the same spot in his garden, but in a 4 gallon container, and I just don't think it would of grown as big as the root system could not of grown to support it.

Also, as I mentioned before about the greenhouse seed co grows on YouTube

e.g. YouTube - Green House Super Silver Haze Grow with Italian Subtitles

This plants grows HUGE and I don't see a plant this big coming out of anything other than a BIG pot.

But I'm no expert here and I'm just trying to learn. I really want to try some experiments with pot size myself just to see how things work out. It should be interesting.