MY True HP Aero Plug&Play Pods

[fatman7574]

The Lucas Ratio is low in phosphorus at a N of 1:2 where its should be 1 to 3 - 8, and it is above high in Potash. The nitrogen to potash ratio should be 1 Nitrogen to (0.25 to 1.5) potash. Lucas is 5:9 so therefore 1 to 1.8. However if you drop the ratio to 1:1 them you will likely be low in calcium. There is already too much magnesium so losing half of each would be fine. There is also the problem with GH using micro nutrients at the high end and high pressure aero and atomized aero seem to experience toxicity problems at standardly used levels. If it were me if using over the counter fertilizers I would try using using 1 part Bloom, 1/2 part Micro and then add some Calcium Nitrate to increase the calcium and nitrogen back up. Or better yet use calcium hydroxide to raise the calcium, leave the Nitrogen lower but use phosphoric acid to raise thelower the pH after the calcium hydroxide lowers it anf it will incraese the phosphorus level which is low.

Lucas method?formula isn't really a good mix it is just a simple mix that requires that you only buy two bottles of their nutrients rather than three. Like that really simplifies things. At the risk of the wrath of many, The Lucas method/formula really sucks. Even his top off plan is sucky. But it saves on the amounts of nutrients you must buy. It does work, but it definitely does not provide anywhere near the best results. Just a long lasting bad fad.

IMHO I would seriously consider knocking the EC down to about 0.3. I believe your water to drain would decrease even spraying the same amount at the same cycles as the lower EC should increase your water takeup as long as your humidity is not too high. It is hard to experience toxicity problems and over fertilization with heavy transpiration and low EC. However your humidity might be up there too high to take full davantage of low EC and therefore high transpiration. I have to keep humidity around 30% during budding and 40% max during vegging to keep high transporation and I likely run higher temps. Your roots can obviously up take more water with them being nearly all hair roots, but yiu need to transpire more to do that. just a bunch of opinions though. You seem to be doing quite well now already. You seem to be way ahead of the progress ever made by those growers at UK420

 

[tree farmer]

fatman
do you think if i used one part bloom and half part micro and then supplemented with calmag i could get close to something to finish this run out with. Any idea how many ppm to use in R/O water of calmag. my calmag has some nitrogen in it.i know they recommend 3-5ml per gallon but if i did that it would be almost half of the total EC. i have been using 1.5-2 ml per gallon.

im going to try a DTW fert or try to mix my own or i might try bios nute specifically designed for HP aero when i do another run.

i have tried the .3 level EC and at those levels that is when i started seeing signs of overall yellowing and where the veins stayed green on some leafs as the rest of the leaf turned yellow. i also noticed some purple hues to the leaf tips. i started uping the EC to its present level and i seem to have slowed it to a halt but i can still see they arent the nice overall green id like to see.

when i was at 150 ppm the runoff use to come out at 10ppm. they were using everything. as my R/O water starts at 10ppm. as ive uped the EC the runoff levels have gone up also. the humidity stays around 30 percent during lights on and 40-50 percent lights out. i think uping the Ec has helped them get what they were lacking and they are just leaving the excess. man i wish i had the test equipment to see what they were really using or what they need more of but at this time i dont have that or even the time to to get it. i defineatly need to get a better grasp of the nute science although i know from many LP aero days that they arent in serious trouble just not at optimal levels. there is plenty of room to improve.

 

[fatman7574]

If your humidity is already low then you would have to kick up the temp to get more transpiration. Kicking up the temp would mean CO2 though.

Looking at the bigger picture firs We can pick the ratio that is the fmost off and adjust from there Phosphorus is the grossly high ppm
Recommended ratios**** then lucas ratios*****Then 1 to 1 ratios of Micro to Bloom.
N******1 to 3-8*****1:2******1:1 So Phosphorus low with either Lucas or 1:1
N:K******1 to 0.25 - 1.5***5:9****5:5 So Potash is high with Lucas but OK with 1:1
Ca:N*****1 to 0.8-1.2****5:5****5:5 So calcium is good with both
Mg:N*****0.1 to 0.4*****3:5****1.5:5 So magnesium is OK with Lucas low with 1:1
P:S******0.6 to 1******10:2****5:2 Either Phosphorus is high or Sulfur is low with both mainly with Lucas as N says acceptable or low we chose Sulphur low

Damn what a sloppy couple of formulas/mixes. I have never really looked them this closely before beacuse most grwoing methods utilix zed and uptake nutrients poorly and most grows are very low transpiration at too high humidities so good formulations aren't really needed. Obviously a high tranpiration low humidity low water ae high pressure aero or atomizer system will not be so forgiving. Firts the phosphorus. Deficiency of phosphorus appears as a dull green coloration of the older leaves followed by purple and brown colours as the foliage dies. The main source of phosphorus in hydroponics is monopotasium phosphate, but limited amounts of ammonium phosphate can be added. Herein is the a place for a choice. You do not need more potash as would come from monopotassium phosphate. So that means getting more phosophorus by adding some ammonium phosphate. However with ammonium phosphate usually comes a daily pH drop in the reservoir. However as you are drain to waste now that is no longer and issue. So I would si uggest boosting your phosphate level with some ammonium phoshate. While your sulphur is low I have never heard of anyone using trace elements that are sulfates that develops sulphur defiencies yet alone when they also use magnesium sulfate. This just leaves a border line calcium level that will become a bit worse with increased nitrogen. As it is just a small amomount it would be easiest increased with just a little calcium chloride. As long as it is not the principle sourse of calcium the small amount of chloride will not matter. If you continue to want to use GH I will mix up some Micro for you to lower the micronutrient levels as that is also a known problem with high pressure aero and atomized aero systems. I think your main problem is your really just your Nitrogen to phosphorus ratio and the borderline calcium is just an agravator. hopefully it is not toxic levels of micronutrients also as it would y take two weeks to get a batch of lower concentrate micro nutrient mix to you. The Postal service really sucks now with the holidays.

 

[tree farmer]

Very nice roots, TF
They are a far cry from the usual half drowned, straggly looking roots normally associated with "aero"
As nice as they are i`m sure you`ve only tapped a very small percentage of the potential performance..its almost a frightening thought

i think your right on that one. i can see a tree easily filling a 4x4 by 14"-18"hieght. it was a blessing in disguiese that i didnt have the misting cycle right from the start cause if i would have im sure there would not be enough room in the chamber to finish them. as it is i am still concerned that the misters might get chocked off. i figure if worst comes to worst ill just reach in there and move the roots away from the misters as gently as possible just to make it thru to the end. off coarse now im thinking i could have got the same veg results in 3 weeks time if it would have been closer to ideal.

you know doing the math they are only seeing aroung 2 gallons aday as you said. now im sure that over a gallon is ending up in the drain. as the drain goes into a gallon jug and its just starting to flow over at lights out. then when lights come back on there is usually a little less than half in the jug. that sounds like they are hardly drinking anything. i wonder how accurate the flow rate is for those nozzels rated at.08oz per sec. im sure i also have some runon as the selonoid shuts off cause of the tubing. being liberal maybe im getting an extra gallon aday to the chambers but that still means they are only using 1.75 gallons aday. that doesnt seem right am i missing something.

 

[fatman7574]

i think your right on that one. i can see a tree easily filling a 4x4 by 14"-18"hieght. it was a blessing in disguiese that i didnt have the misting cycle right from the start cause if i would have im sure there would not be enough room in the chamber to finish them. as it is i am still concerned that the misters might get chocked off. i figure if worst comes to worst ill just reach in there and move the roots away from the misters as gently as possible just to make it thru to the end. off coarse now im thinking i could have got the same veg results in 3 weeks time if it would have been closer to ideal.

you know doing the math they are only seeing aroung 2 gallons aday as you said. now im sure that over a gallon is ending up in the drain. as the drain goes into a gallon jug and its just starting to flow over at lights out. then when lights come back on there is usually a little less than half in the jug. that sounds like they are hardly drinking anything. i wonder how accurate the flow rate is for those nozzels rated at.08oz per sec. im sure i also have some runon as the selonoid shuts off cause of the tubing. being liberal maybe im getting an extra gallon aday to the chambers but that still means they are only using 1.75 gallons aday. that doesnt seem right am i missing something.

Considering the weight they are putting on per day they are taking on quaite abit of water. You said the humidity is pretty low so things sound pretty good considering it is a ambient air grow. Plants do not respire at nearly as much as they transpire during the day as they alos transpire some during the day. Water use at night should be pretty minimal. Your water use during the day is going to be dependent on the other growing parameters. ie lights, temp CO2 and humidity. Unless everything increases but they humidity which must be kept low no increases in water uptake will happen dramatically. Also as your palnts ought to seem almost dwarfy as far as height growth is efficiently compacted and therefore water usage should be less than taller more open plants as humidity within the branches of bushy plants also slows transpiration as the humidity is higher amongst the bushy plants versus stretched more open growth as found with with a typical grow.

 

[tree farmer]

fatman
do you think any of these nutes designed for aero approximate the right ratio for the ladies.
http://www.biocontrols.com/secure/shop/category.asp?catid=19

 

[fatman7574]

I cant really say until I get to grow some and do the dialy nutrient tests. I have the equipment for the testing, but I have not yet set up the grow so I have been having to just go might waht little I have been able to find. There is some good readinf g on goggle scholera but I have to down laod from work as the acoount is te ied to my office IP. There is not a lot of dat though it seems to be a line here a pargaraph there. The problem with nutrient sold for home growers is that they do not teach anything to growers as it would cut their power, control and profits. They actually deisgn nutrients ti be used fith poorly designed systems and ignore formulations for good systems. It is like when people stared the stupid small low pressure tube fad. They adjusted the fertilizers so as to make large profits selling to those people rather than telling them that the systems will not work properly with balanced nutrients. same thing with DWC and NTF etc. They make alot of money supplying bad fixes for bad systems. they have the resources to develop growing systems and good nutrient formulations at the same time. However they make for money just testing nutrients on poor systems and letting hobbietsts bungle along.

When it comes to hydroponic fertilizers they worry about hard water and carbonates more than anything else. That is followed by calcium and in doing that they use calcium nitrate. Then thet y bounce down phosphorus, however they always use monopottasium phosphate as many hobby growers do not even buy pH meters, and ammonium phosphate as I earlier mentioned causes pH problems in resrvoirs where nutrients are recycled. This has really only been a problem for a few yeas as until a few u yeras ab go much more ammonium phospahte was used as there were fewer hydroponic growers. the manafactures switched over to more monopottasium phosphate and have neraly completely quit using ammonium nitrate. Ammonium nitrate is fine as long as if you recycle nutrients you also at laest daily adjust your ph. up again. But as that would mean a bunch of people wo do not do so as many don't even buy pH meters, they have dropped ammonium phosphate use and therefore sell poorly balanced fertilizers with low levels of phosphorus. To have adequate phosphorus it would be likely that they would have to actually teach peple how to make soluble calcium daditives and use ammonium phospahte maening losing customers who don't use pH meters. Or v be honest with them about tap water analysis and RO water. Calcium levels are a big thing with aero and hydro. They are the first major problem in mis xing a gfood formula. Too many people saty you must remove all the calcium to start out with fresh pure water. The stupid thing is the firstthing they do is start with calcium nitarte to get the proper level of calcium anf d then try to fit everything around the calcium. It all just gets worse from there. I gurantee you if you are formulato ing a nutrient formula for water that already has 50 or 100 milligranms of soluble calcium in it them mis xing the formula balanced is much easier thamn if you start out with a zer TDS water.

T o shorten it all down to a few words. It is easiest to mix your own nutrients or have them mixed by a friend than to try to doctor up retail nutrients. formulations should be bi uilt around your taop water unless it is really bad. If bad you remove everthing then add some c soluble calcium. then you design a formula for your needs based upom water that larday has some soluble calcium in it. This gives you the ltatude y to get proper balances. It is done that way through out the commercial green houses food industry. The way it is done in the pot growind hooby is at the convience of the manafacturers to make it simplier and more profitable for them. If you wish me to be specific it will have to be by PM. I can tell you excatly how to prepare a good balanced formula from RO water by PM. I'll give you a hint. By PM.

 

[travish413]

Thanks for that info Atomizer! Man TF those roots are sexy!! I guess i will go straight to budding when they go from the cloner to the grow chamber. I still want to put one big hole in the middle or make a seperate top with one big hole and grow a huge tree
Fatman your info on nutes is great! Keep up the good work guys! Hopefully I will be taking clones soon. Still waiting on my mothers to get big enough...

 

[OregonMeds]

Wow, impressive stuff here.

Marking for further reading...

 

[Atomizer]

Hi TF,
Just as a heads up I sent the "info" to the guys on the thread via pm, we`re keeping the info details on the QT for now

The only way to be sure about the nozzle output is to measure it at maximum system pressure, it`ll have the highest flowrate. The air assisted nozzles do have the edge of controllable liquid flow, an accumulator based system is stuck with whatever the nozzles deliver.
I did some testing to see how short a mist pulse i could get. Using purple nozzles,4 bar advs and 90psi, i can get it down to a 0.5 second pulse measured from the instant the mist starts to the instant it stops...its really just a blip
You can get an idea of how long that is with this: http://www.online-stopwatch.com/

It would be interesting if you put a cup or something under one of your nozzles to collect the water, with 2 seconds you should get 4.73ml or about a teaspoonful.

 

[tree farmer]

Hi TF,
Just as a heads up I sent the "info" to the guys on the thread via pm, we`re keeping the info details on the QT for now

The only way to be sure about the nozzle output is to measure it at maximum system pressure, it`ll have the highest flowrate. The air assisted nozzles do have the edge of controllable liquid flow, an accumulator based system is stuck with whatever the nozzles deliver.
I did some testing to see how short a mist pulse i could get. Using purple nozzles,4 bar advs and 90psi, i can get it down to a 0.5 second pulse measured from the instant the mist starts to the instant it stops...its really just a blip
You can get an idea of how long that is with this: http://www.online-stopwatch.com/

It would be interesting if you put a cup or something under one of your nozzles to collect the water, with 2 seconds you should get 4.73ml or about a teaspoonful.

ill tell you one thing im going to add to the system is a little remote controll to fire the selonoid while im over by the pods. its impossible for me to fire the selonoid and have the latch cover open and be by the pod at the same time. i realized this flaw awhile back when wanting to check for nozzel blockage. now to check the nozzels i have to turn the misters on continuous and then run to one pod and check quick and then run back to the switch by the cycle timer then do it all over for each pod. it sucks because it saturates the roots for a bit and that little bit can destroy the fine root hairs. they recover quickly but still dont like doing it.
but ill hook a little remote than i can fire while im standing with my hand by the nozzels. i just dont want to do it now because it sucks trying to rework a system while it is in operation.

i guess maybe i could try to duct tape a small vitamin bottle or something similar to one of the nozzels when it fires. although with the roots closing in that wont be very easy either.

your right about the air assisted being able to reach those 1sec and .5 sec pulses easier but as you know the accumulator with the system tweaked can still do a fairly close job. man .5 sec goes quick.

in that info it sounds like the air exchange in the chambers seems to be of importance. im wondering how the accumulator systems are getting this exchange. my chambers are sealed pretty well with weather stripping. i wonder if they suffer for that. the roots smell good though(earthy smell) like potatoes when you dig them up.

 

[Atomizer]

The remote sounds like a good idea, the 10 minutes pause time would make it a tedious job if you waited for the cycle. I guess having ample space in the root chamber would sort out any air exchange issues.
Hydraulic nozzles will do a great job if they have a low flow and are tightly controlled. Its the little things that make a big difference, i found the relay and solenoid add a chunk to the overall timing as they have to open and close during the cycle. These will probably have some effect on air-assisted setups too.
Another variable for the mist pulse is the pressure in the pipework between the solenoid and the adv`s, it has to drop to a set level before the adv will close..adding even more time. You`ll gain a new math skill if you try to figure that one out.. "bulk modulus"
To get the 0.5sec mist pulse i had to run the actual timer at 0.277 seconds, i`m not sure how low commercial cycle timers can go. Three or maybe four, 0.04oz nozzles in a 100gal chamber with a 0.5 second total misting pulse looks like it would be pretty good.
The direct comparison equates to 2.36ml per 0.5 sec pulse (4 nozzles) versus 19ml with your current 4 nozzles on a 2 sec pulse with no run on.

 

[fatman7574]

Air pump supplying a diffuser and a vent hole in each chamber. More than likely your getting enough venting around your pots etc. Considering the quality of your roots I don't think you have an O2 shortage. A small airline though is not going to add enough dry air to cause harm though and it could possibly help. According to the Delvan charts a #11 nozzkles spraying 8 liters per hour is using 0.094 cubic meters per minute at its highest flow with the highest air volume. So the air requirements needed for adequate O2 is not that much if the atomix normally sprayed 1 second per minute as the atomizer air was its only air source Their unit was roughly 1/2 of a cubic meter receiving 0.01 of a cubic meter per hour. Maybe double that with two nozzles. While your HP misters are not supply air with ecah spray the air nozzles do not really supply a whole lot either. I have not read about supplemental air being supplied by anyone with air atomizers. I imagine a cheap small aquarium air pump would put out at least 0.1 cubic foot per minute, So about 0.17 cubic meters per hour. So a small pump could supply enough air for 17 full size atomix pods using HP misters rather than atomizers.

ill tell you one thing im going to add to the system is a little remote controll to fire the selonoid while im over by the pods. its impossible for me to fire the selonoid and have the latch cover open and be by the pod at the same time. i realized this flaw awhile back when wanting to check for nozzel blockage. now to check the nozzels i have to turn the misters on continuous and then run to one pod and check quick and then run back to the switch by the cycle timer then do it all over for each pod. it sucks because it saturates the roots for a bit and that little bit can destroy the fine root hairs. they recover quickly but still dont like doing it.
but ill hook a little remote than i can fire while im standing with my hand by the nozzels. i just dont want to do it now because it sucks trying to rework a system while it is in operation.

i guess maybe i could try to duct tape a small vitamin bottle or something similar to one of the nozzels when it fires. although with the roots closing in that wont be very easy either.

your right about the air assisted being able to reach those 1sec and .5 sec pulses easier but as you know the accumulator with the system tweaked can still do a fairly close job. man .5 sec goes quick.

in that info it sounds like the air exchange in the chambers seems to be of importance. im wondering how the accumulator systems are getting this exchange. my chambers are sealed pretty well with weather stripping. i wonder if they suffer for that. the roots smell good though(earthy smell) like potatoes when you dig them up.

 

[fatman7574]

The remote sounds like a good idea, the 10 minutes pause time would make it a tedious job if you waited for the cycle. I guess having ample space in the root chamber would sort out any air exchange issues.
Hydraulic nozzles will do a great job if they have a low flow and are tightly controlled. Its the little things that make a big difference, i found the relay and solenoid add a chunk to the overall timing as they have to open and close during the cycle. These will probably have some effect on air-assisted setups too.
Another variable for the mist pulse is the pressure in the pipework between the solenoid and the adv`s, it has to drop to a set level before the adv will close..adding even more time. You`ll gain a new math skill if you try to figure that one out.. "bulk modulus"
To get the 0.5sec mist pulse i had to run the actual timer at 0.277 seconds, i`m not sure how low commercial cycle timers can go. Three or maybe four, 0.04oz nozzles in a 100gal chamber with a 0.5 second total misting pulse looks like it would be pretty good.

The timers I have are 0.001 second to 9999 hours. Let me know if you ever want to get that specific. They are Omron H5CX-A timers.
https://www.omron247.com/Industrial-Automation/Store/OmronProductDetailView?productId=55435&langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10051&parent_category_rn=12327&technologyId=22711&familyId=12327&subFamilyId= I buy everyone I can on eBay.

 

[Atomizer]

Thanks for that Fatman,
I don`t think i could go any lower as the limiting factor appears to be the fixed amount of delay caused by the other components.
Its quite interesting to see what happens to TF`s current cycle timings with the lower flow nozzles and a fast misting pulse. If you keep the same hourly water delivery the same, 2sec/10min becomes 0.5sec/75 sec, 2sec/15min becomes 0.5sec/112sec and 2sec/30min becomes 0.5 sec/225 sec. The pause durations are almost on par with the atomix

 

[tree farmer]

Hi TF,
Just as a heads up I sent the "info" to the guys on the thread via pm, we`re keeping the info details on the QT for now

The only way to be sure about the nozzle output is to measure it at maximum system pressure, it`ll have the highest flowrate. The air assisted nozzles do have the edge of controllable liquid flow, an accumulator based system is stuck with whatever the nozzles deliver.
I did some testing to see how short a mist pulse i could get. Using purple nozzles,4 bar advs and 90psi, i can get it down to a 0.5 second pulse measured from the instant the mist starts to the instant it stops...its really just a blip
You can get an idea of how long that is with this: http://www.online-stopwatch.com/

It would be interesting if you put a cup or something under one of your nozzles to collect the water, with 2 seconds you should get 4.73ml or about a teaspoonful.

well i put a cup under the nozzel and waited for the mist. it was at 80psi on the gauge which is right before the pump kicks on. you did the math atomizer and the number should be 4.73 ml(i didnt do the math going by your figures) but it came out to 8.6 ml. dont ask me how this is but i measured with an eye dropper and a 2.5ml and a 1.2 ml spoon. thats what it came out to.

this is at the low end of the cycle and your saying they put out more at the high end. correct. so these things cant be rated exactly right if your math is correct.

im going to try another nozzel tommorrow to see if i get the same result cause i didnt remember what you said it should be while i was there and now im puzzeled as to how its almost double what it should be.

 

[Atomizer]

Hi TF
Either the nozzle output is greater than the spec or the spec is correct and the pulse is longer than 2 seconds or a combination of both.
It takes 3.65 seconds to deliver 8.6ml @ 8.51LPH, could the total mist pulse from start to finish be that long?
To get an accurate output figure you`d need to run a single nozzle for a known amount of time, like a full minute at max pressure. Probably best to leave that test until after harvest

Working with the new flowrate, running 2sec/10min cycles all day you`d deliver 1.3gal/day to each chamber. I`m sure its mist run-on, there`s no way your nozzles can be putting out 15.6LPH

After a bit more math, the total amount of water going through the system may be somewhere around 3.287 gals/day, hows that compare to reality?
Make that 3.361 gal/day, i geared the other figure to 9hr@10min,3hr@15min and 12hr@30mins timing split instead of 10hr,2hr,12hr.


In the interest of science.. i tested a couple of nozzles by firing them directly into a 10ml syringe using 75psi pressure and a 0.5sec pulse.
The purple netafim nozzle (flowrate tested @ 6.75LPH) delivered exactly 1ml into the syringe which is pretty close to the 0.93ml calculated figure.
As Travish has some grey netafims i tested one of those as well. The grey nozzle delivered 1.25ml into the syringe in 0.5 seconds, so i guess they deliver something like 8.6LPH @ 5 bar.

Here is the reallly interesting part, i did the same exact tests again but this time without an adv inline.
The purple nozzle delivered a shade under 3.75ml, the grey did exactly 4ml into the syringe. The adv makes a huge difference to the performance. The test setup used a 5.5" length of 1/2" bore tube between the solenoid and the nozzle. If it was longer the results would be a lot worse.

 

[Atomizer]

I think thats solved the nozzle mystery, TF.
My 5.5" of pipe dropping from 75psi to 0psi (no adv) will deliver 2.579ml of water to the nozzle after the solenoid closes.
With a purple nozzle it equates to an extra 1.376 seconds of misting i didn`t plan on.
Putting the adv inline means the pressure in the pipe will only drop from 75psi to 26psi before the adv closes. It doesn`t sound like a big difference but it works out to a meager 0.0024ml of water being available for any run on instead of ~2.6ml.
With a purple nozzle its only an extra 0.00128 seconds added to the pulse time.

 

[fatman7574]

You do know the average forum viewer reading what you just wrote is just going to say WTF, or have their eyes roll back into their skulls till just the whites show. Good useful info to us few that can follow it though.

 

[Atomizer]

Some won`t want to know the how or why, only how to get around it
I took a video of the mist pulse and stepped thru it frame by frame..the pulse takes exactly 0.7 seconds from start to finish.