advanced nutrients vs. fox farm

[guitarjon]

You should. Based on a quick look at your journal, you've got some serious leaf chlorosis and yellowing. A food with a higher amount of N would fix it. Problem is, most of the food vendors you're using do not understand the function of N as reflected by the makeup of their products, or don't care.

You're wasting your time and money. It will have no beneficial effect during veg. Superthrive for starts can and will work against you, it is a synthetic hormone and Vitamin B1 that is meant to induce root cell division and elongation. It should be used only as a root drench at no more than 10 drops per gallon.

Advanced growers do not use cannabis specific foods like AN. They understand the function of the 16 essential elements. They buy high quality foods, not glamorized snake oils. If it sounds too good to be true, watch out.

UB

Thanks for the great info. So your saying i should feed with something with a high nitrogen value for vegging? Or throughout the whole grow? Also i only use like 3 drops per gallon so hopefully it has done any harm to my babies. Really appreciate the advice man. Love learning from experienced growers. I've only been growing for a year and a half

 

[Uncle Ben]

Thanks for the great info. So your saying i should feed with something with a high nitrogen value for vegging? Or throughout the whole grow? Also i only use like 3 drops per gallon so hopefully it has done any harm to my babies. Really appreciate the advice man. Love learning from experienced growers. I've only been growing for a year and a half

N is the macro that promotes plant vigor and green healthy leaves. You need to check out the NPK ratios of your favorite foods. I think you'll find them lacking in N COMPARED TO the other macros, and that is the key - the ratio. Never have understood why. Here are fertilizers designed for foliar production that have been around for a decades and worked well, formulas like 30-10-10 or a 9-3-6 and the cannabis specific guys come along and try to pan off some NPK ratio like a 3-2-6 as a "grow food", to use for veg. What happens? Plants yellow, prematurely lose leaves, don't have as much vigor as they should, develop leaf chlorosis, yields suffer...it's laughable.

 

[crossouttheiis]

N is the macro that promotes plant vigor and green healthy leaves. You need to check out the NPK ratios of your favorite foods. I think you'll find them lacking in N COMPARED TO the other macros, and that is the key - the ratio. Never have understood why. Here are fertilizers designed for foliar production that have been around for a decades and worked well, formulas like 30-10-10 or a 9-3-6 and the cannabis specific guys come along and try to pan off some NPK ratio like a 3-2-6 as a "grow food", to use for veg. What happens? Plants yellow, prematurely lose leaves, don't have as much vigor as they should, develop leaf chlorosis, yields suffer...it's laughable.

Sorry to thread jack, but UB what would you consider the 16 essentials then? why are only npk values added to all products? I am in the process of mixing up some of subcools soil and trying soil for the first time. I have always been into hydroponically grown things.

 

[jberry]

Sorry to thread jack, but UB what would you consider the 16 essentials then? why are only npk values added to all products? I am in the process of mixing up some of subcools soil and trying soil for the first time. I have always been into hydroponically grown things.

heres 14 of them i believe...


Primary nutrients: Nitrogen, Phosphorus and Potassium

Secondary nutrients: Calcium, Sulfur and Magnesium

Micro-nutrients: Iron, Zinc, Copper, Manganese, Boron, Chlorine, Molybdenum and Selenium

(maybe carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen are the others? but thats 17, idk...)

there are others that some say may be beneficial but not essential : Cobalt (Co), Silicon (Si), Vanadium (V), Sodium (Na)

References:
Brady and Weil, 2002, The Nature and Properties of Soils, 13th edition, use the list of 18.
Havlin et al., 1999, Soil Fertility and Fertilizers, 6th ed., use the list of 16 because the others are not required by all plants.
Some online resources that may be useful are given by Brady and Weil. All use the list of 16.
http://www.greenair.com/interpri.htm
http://www.hydrofarm.com/content/articles/factors_plant.html
http://www.soil.ncsu.edu/publications/Soilfacts/AG-439-16/#Micronutrients

what do u think ben... did i get it?

 

[Uncle Ben]

Sorry to thread jack, but UB what would you consider the 16 essentials then? why are only npk values added to all products? I am in the process of mixing up some of subcools soil and trying soil for the first time. I have always been into hydroponically grown things.

you got it jberry. Here's a great link. Notice the balance one must achieve or you end up with a situation where one element ends up being antagonistic to others because it dominates. http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/consumer/quickref/fertilizer/nutri_def.html

 

[Uncle Ben]

Sorry to thread jack, but UB what would you consider the 16 essentials then? why are only npk values added to all products? I am in the process of mixing up some of subcools soil and trying soil for the first time. I have always been into hydroponically grown things.

you got it jberry. Here's a great link. Note that a balance must be achieved or you end up with a situation where one element ends up being antagonistic to others (regarding uptake) because it dominates. IOW, too much K will be antagonistic to the uptake of N, Mg, and Ca. http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/consumer/quickref/fertilizer/nutri_def.html

 

[Sensibowl]

you got it jberry. Here's a great link. Note that a balance must be achieved or you end up with a situation where one element ends up being antagonistic to others (regarding uptake) because it dominates. IOW, too much K will be antagonistic to the uptake of N, Mg, and Ca. http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/consumer/quickref/fertilizer/nutri_def.html

nice link - thanks for sharing.

This thread is really going to help a lot of people decide for themselves what to use...

I mean, it's hard to choose between nutrients. Took me FOREVER in the begining.

 

[Uncle Ben]

The reason why it's so confusing is folks don't understand plant nutrition and then use the "he said, she said's" as a crutch which always ends up in a confusing mire of forum recommended, hyped up, over priced products designed to attract noobs and kids.

IMO, if you can't figure out that a value priced, well balanced $5.00 box of Peters fertilizer is all you need, then you need to find another hobby.

 

[sparki]

The reason why it's so confusing is folks don't understand plant nutrition and then use the "he said, she said's" as a crutch which always ends up in a confusing mire of forum recommended, hyped up, over priced products designed to attract noobs and kids.

IMO, if you can't figure out that a value priced, well balanced $5.00 box of Peters fertilizer is all you need, then you need to find another hobby.

how about for boosters? Ive been fertalizing way less this grow and have been giving them more plain water. Ive noticed greater results. What sort of products would you use for items such as Big Bud and Overdrive?

 

[laserbrn]

how about for boosters? Ive been fertalizing way less this grow and have been giving them more plain water. Ive noticed greater results. What sort of products would you use for items such as Big Bud and Overdrive?

I'm not going to marijuana plant school just to learn how to do what AN has already figured out. I'm really happy for you that you can mix all your salts and solubles and shit and make your own nutrients, but that's just not realistic and dangerous to promote. There's a lot to be learned to do that and the simple fact is that AN and Foxfarms and the others have decent products that do that job for you. They forumlated their products to do just what you are doing at home and charge a premium for what they've done. They do more research than you do, have more resources, more money and a lot more connections for getting the job done.

The benefit? They get to charge outrageous prices for their products. Why? Because guys like me have better shit to do than figure all of that out. NPK ratings certainly aren't the end all be all of nutrients.

For 99.99% of growers we just want a product that works, works well, and delivers great results. AN does the job. I tried Fox Farms, wasn't impressed. My AN lineup that I keep REALLY simple does the job very, very well.

I probably pay about $120.00 /lb of marijuana I grow for the nutrients used to grow it. That to me is a small price to pay to be able to produce a great product without losing 75 crops trying to figure out how to do it myself.

C'mon, just because you like it that much doesn't mean everyone should it that way. And it certainly doesn't relate to which is better Fox Farms or AN from the experience of growers on here.

If you want to sell Uncle Ben's nutrients I think you should go ahead and do that, 'cause the rest of us don't give a flying fuck about figuring all that shit out and we'd gladly pay the price for something that works and works well (which we can clearly see you've got).

Why is toothpaste so expensive? $3.00 for a little tube? I can make gallons of it for nothing! We can make toothpaste, but c'mon what the fuck are we talking about? Do you mix your windshield wiper fluid to save a buck too? Some things are more hassle than they are worth and this DEFINITELY is.

 

[FuZZyBUDz]

AN promotes brain tumors. seriously too.

synthetic nutes hav been known to promote brain tumors.

 

[FuZZyBUDz]

good thread tho!

 

[kntrl]

I'm not going to marijuana plant school just to learn how to do what AN has already figured out. I'm really happy for you that you can mix all your salts and solubles and shit and make your own nutrients, but that's just not realistic and dangerous to promote. There's a lot to be learned to do that and the simple fact is that AN and Foxfarms and the others have decent products that do that job for you. They forumlated their products to do just what you are doing at home and charge a premium for what they've done. They do more research than you do, have more resources, more money and a lot more connections for getting the job done.

The benefit? They get to charge outrageous prices for their products. Why? Because guys like me have better shit to do than figure all of that out. NPK ratings certainly aren't the end all be all of nutrients.

For 99.99% of growers we just want a product that works, works well, and delivers great results. AN does the job. I tried Fox Farms, wasn't impressed. My AN lineup that I keep REALLY simple does the job very, very well.

I probably pay about $120.00 /lb of marijuana I grow for the nutrients used to grow it. That to me is a small price to pay to be able to produce a great product without losing 75 crops trying to figure out how to do it myself.

C'mon, just because you like it that much doesn't mean everyone should it that way. And it certainly doesn't relate to which is better Fox Farms or AN from the experience of growers on here.

If you want to sell Uncle Ben's nutrients I think you should go ahead and do that, 'cause the rest of us don't give a flying fuck about figuring all that shit out and we'd gladly pay the price for something that works and works well (which we can clearly see you've got).

Why is toothpaste so expensive? $3.00 for a little tube? I can make gallons of it for nothing! We can make toothpaste, but c'mon what the fuck are we talking about? Do you mix your windshield wiper fluid to save a buck too? Some things are more hassle than they are worth and this DEFINITELY is.

You would think you worked for an in which case fuck off.

How is it dangerous to teach people the biology of there plants.

And i would think alot of folks would rather pay five dollars rather than 40 for some as seen on tv nutes. but thats just me.

Plus you sound like a dick. A lot of people are gardeners and would like to know more about what they are doing with there garden. If you know what i mean.

I see way to much steriods from an users

 

[kntrl]

and by the way i use the whole fox farm line-up. I get great results. I have friends that have used both and the yields from AN were better they say.

 

[terrorizer805]

Off topic here, But what do you think about General Hydroponics Organic Lineup?
There is not much talk about these products and would like to hear more on these.

"start your own thread" Lick my weiner

 

[laserbrn]

You would think you worked for an in which case fuck off.

How is it dangerous to teach people the biology of there plants.

It's not dangerous to teach people the biology their plants. I have a great deal of respect for Uncle Ben and what he does. I am very grateful that he spreads his knowledge and shares his experience. It's dangerous to tell newbs that it's the best way to go first time 'round. He's gained his knowledge over years of growing. Someone who's just invested say ~$2500 in grow equipment (pretty average for a noob) is going to be looking for a way to have a successful first grow. For that noob, I think it's more responsible to answer the question posed in this thread: Which is better, Foxfarms or AN. I think it's great to show the world that it can be done on the cheap and to have the information out there and available, but for most people this comes down to money. If you are really worried about the bottom line you need to realize that you risk losing a lot more money in crops than and time by trying to get someone who doesn't know shit about growing to mix their own fertilizers or to buy the cheap stuff.

And i would think alot of folks would rather pay five dollars rather than 40 for some as seen on tv nutes. but thats just me.

I would rather save $1000's on marijuana than lose my crops, but that's just me.

Plus you sound like a dick. A lot of people are gardeners and would like to know more about what they are doing with there garden. If you know what i mean.

I apologize if I sound like a dick. I am a dick. I have no problems admitting to being a dick.

I see way to much steriods from an users

Please elaborate? Steroids from AN users? Is this in reference to the plants that they produce or the ACTUAL users?

Note: When I get involved in a discussion on this forum, I state my opinion and I generally state it firmly. This doesn't mean it needs to be reduced to a pissing match, UB knows I have a great deal of respect for him and what he does.

I don't think anywhere it sounded like an attack on him. I don't think I sounded like someone who works for AN either, pretty sure they don't call their own product over-priced and over-hyped, not a good business practice.

But if you put $2500-$3000 into equipment and seeds would you pissed when it was all over because someone told you could get away with using $5.00 worth of fertilizer instead of spending the $40.00?

Stepping over dollars to save pennies can be a very dangerous game. I definitely agree that you can do better with your own ferts. Every plant has different needs and will have different requirements, the one-size-fits-all approach isn't going to fit perfectly, but my advice to someone who asks which is better Foxfarms or Advanced Nutrients isn't..."Make your own fertilizers" or "use the cheap stuff, it can be made to work perfectly".

Lots of great results from AN users, undeniably. I am just a happy user of their product and I share my experience and the experience of the many growers that I know that use it. I know some that use others (They don't yield as I do or have as impressive of crops) and maybe someday they will surpass me when they master the game, but for MOST out there, it's not about gardening, it's about marijuana.

 

[kntrl]

I feel ya on alot of those issues. It just seemed like you crashed the thread pretty hardcore. I think alot of newb growers should learn more about whats actually going on with there nutes instead of just a plug and play attitude. Then they might really learn why AN is better because of A. Instead of because of just as seen on weeds hype.

But i guess we are talking about marijuana in the end. And yields and potency is really what we are all after. Even if I understand the botany behind the end result is all that matters to most.

Sorry if i barked. Im also a dick.

happy growing

 

[laserbrn]

I feel ya on alot of those issues. It just seemed like you crashed the thread pretty hardcore. I think alot of newb growers should learn more about whats actually going on with there nutes instead of just a plug and play attitude. Then they might really learn why AN is better because of A. Instead of because of just as seen on weeds hype.

But i guess we are talking about marijuana in the end. And yields and potency is really what we are all after. Even if I understand the botany behind the end result is all that matters to most.

Sorry if i barked. Im also a dick.

happy growing

No worries. I'm glad it all got said, I didn't want people to perceive my post to mean that I don't appreciate the info, just that it needs to come with context.

 

[sparki]

"But if you put $2500-$3000 into equipment and seeds would you pissed when it was all over because someone told you could get away with using $5.00 worth of fertilizer instead of spending the $40.00?"

haha i got pissed cause hey it's probably true and the fockers got me good. but then again throwing money at the problem works too.

 

[Uncle Ben]

There is no such thing as a plant "booster" i.e. the often hawked enzyme and vitamin inclusion baloney.

1. Plants make their own enyzmes and vitamins, they don't need your help,

2. One has no way of verifying that their fave product is as represented, and even if it was, because it's marketing gimmicks rather than facts that focus on fulfilling your production dreams, does not mean it's so (that's all this biz is, conmen fulfilling dreams).

If it sounds too good to be true......

The only "boosters" that horticulturists apply is synthetic hormones witness commercial artichoke or table grape growing. The rest is simple - the 16 essential elements for plant growth. Hell, most times you can't get that info with these cannabis specific products mainly due to a lack of strict regulation of this industry. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what that suggests. It means what you see in this biz - these vendors/manufacturers realize who and what they are dealing with - kids/noobs who tend to focus on the inherent communal glamor, mystique and romance, folks who are generally too lazy to learn what makes a plant tick regarding plant nutrition and such. It's really quite simple. "Tell me what I should use."

There are those that also prescribe "beneficial" elements like silicon. Now, I'm not advocating the use of silicon or any other wild ass element for cannabis, so kiddies don't go off on a tangent and Google yourself to death. If you think you need some barium, then check out your proctologist's barium enema procedure. It just may save your life.