Simple Questions About Beliefs

[Brazko]

If you're referring to the "Whose Down With Jesus" thread - in which the OP asked for atheists not to post, to that I said don't post on a public forum if you don't welcome all opinions. Total justification for breaking that rule, I'm sure you will agree with that. Also, I never came with hostile intentions. Go take a look for yourself.

Look man, the point of this thread is to get some much needed progress in this arena. All we all do all the time in each thread we all post in is argue. I thought it was time for a change, in order to accomplish that there has to be some rules and guidelines for people to follow so things don't get stagnant. There's gotta be a goal. I was tired of getting nowhere.




Like I said the rules are important for the goal of the thread. You seem to have a pretty unique perspective, you should get involved.

This goes for anyone too, I'd love for a believer to ask a genuine question they have about atheism to see if anyone can help. I see tons of misconceptions all the time about people who simply lack a belief in a god.. Any takers?

Rules are important, but the same justifications you saw there, are the same justifications used here.. Rules are already in place.., but not to get into that..

Instead of saying how do you have faith/belief in the flying spaghetti Monster? please explain..

First ask what is faith? Faith can be described as anything, sort of what 1 poster tried to explain.., Faith can be, you have belief that oncoming traffic won't swerve into your lane and hit you head on.. There is no Law that says it can't happen.. But you have faith that it won't.. Why? Cause a piece of paper says it shouldn't happen, you have faith in man's Law..

The point is.., If you are being serious.., then you don't know what FAith, or Belief is to that person.. So the first question would be.. What is Faith? or Why do you Believe? Not implied cynical questions to what you believe and then wish for an answer to them..

FAith is the trust in an Idea, assimilated Knowledge, or Experience that conforms to an often plausible or Repeatable truth.. For a person to have Faith in something - The idea, Assimilated knowledge, or Experience - is required of that person.. Therefore, one cannot have faith in something that they lack accounts with.. I can not have Faith in the Flying Spaghetti Monster because I don't trust the idea, the assimilated knowledge is none, and the only experience I have had with the spaghetti monster is after I've eating him.. Indigestion.. You see, I don't have faith in the Flying spaghetti monster..

Yeah, I wished to get involve.., but it is only you I can talk too.., because you are the only One who wish to Know, If you have a question for me., I'll p.m. it to you... It will be yours to keep, or to share.. You can do with it whatever you like..

Brazko is so emo.....

wtf is emo? No, Probably more like Nemo..

 

[bigtomatofarmer]

I think BTF makes a good point.

Thank you sir. Its a point I wanted to make for various reasons. So lets get started...



I will address the most popular complaints that atheists hold about believers

1) Hypocrites. Enough said. Atheists and believers share one thing... Humanity. Nobody is perfect. You throw that into my face, (even though you dont know me) and I will throw it back into your face with proof from your own actions

2) When you question me about things that hold NO relevance at all. ie, "stoning women for adultery" It's the same as me acusing you of slavery and torturing. You do live in the U.S. correct? And U.S. laws did at one time believe those things. And yes, Gitmo is alive today!!!

Ok wait, Ive lost track... What was I talking about? Sorry, I am smoking some homegrown Bubba Kush and getting blazed. This is RIU right?? I think some of you forgot where you were.

3) Oh yeah, You say that believers force their opinion on you. Well, have you ever heard of the 1st ammendment??? Anti religion is anti America
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

You are not being murdered, fired or tortured over atheism. Infact, I see the opposite happening everyday.
"Trevor Keezor had been working at Home Depot for over a year, when his boss pulled him aside and told him that he'd have to remove a certain pin from his orange apron. The American flag pin said "One nation under God, indivisible." Keezor refused, and he says he was fired for it."

I fail to see any underlaying tones that would point to being mad, I simply, without mentioning right or wrong on OP's part, discussed the current wrong with you and your religions own beliefs.

Did you say FAIL?? Because if you dont see a point, then I believe you are right!!!!

And geeze how biased your opinion is. Like you said "without mentioning right or wrong on OP's part"


I wont mention any names due to respect, but here is a quote I found on RIU
"It's fine to attack believers, but the atheists cry foul"

 

[DJBoxhouse]

"Did you say FAIL?? Because if you dont see a point, then I believe you are right!!!!"
I'm going to pretend I didn't read that, because it still makes just as much sense as the point it's regarding.

It's not about biases, it's about addressing the issue that's topic oriented to the thread.
Although I won't argue the quote you used being said, I argue the validity of it. I haven't seen you attack
anything directly regarding atheism, just some things regarding specific atheists. Poorly drawn out and seemingly aimless
as they were, I was able to gather at least that much from what was said.

The main point is, this is a thread wanting a peaceful Q&A with atheism and theists, you came in screaming sacrilege and
hell fire, throwing accusations and hypocrisy around without regarding the whole point of the thread and even failing one of your most
religious fundamental teachings at the same time. At least to my understanding, last time I checked the bible, it was still in there.

It's not about collecting points, or negating some because they're 'on my side' unlike theists, atheists don't look at it as teams,
it's merely that most of the atheists who actually get it (a lot still don't) simply tend to have the same way of thought.

Now that this is done, let me address the next question.

From an atheists perspective, unlike theists, who tend to need to gather in mass to reassure you're all on the same page as one another;
reassessing each others faith. Don't you find this kind of trivial? If you truly believe in your g-d, what need is there for you to do these weekly saves
to make sure you're on the ball? I get holidays, but damn. It seems more, when atheism comes to mind, it isn't about what you think, it's about
how you think. Atheism is merely a byproduct of that specific way of thought. From my experience it comes off as, rather, a somewhat unnecessary
intellectual checking of sorts. Like reassessing with a good friend whether or not you think you're alright in the noggin still. Seems kind of childish personally.

Do you guys believe churches should even be opened? Why isn't religion a more personally practiced thing instead of a public tap dance extravaganza?
Just saying, live by it as a philosophy and moral guideline, a lot less b/s would happen. I'm cool with you guys believing in whatever you want, just don't spout it
out around everyone else. I said this in a past thread, It somewhat applies,

"Treat your religion like your genitals: Don't flash it out in public, and don't force it down your children's throats."

Abide by this, and we're a-okay. I still just as thoroughly disagree with your 'opinions' but, whatever. Why should I bother you?

 

[DEXTER MORGAN]

"Did you say FAIL?? Because if you dont see a point, then I believe you are right!!!!"
I'm going to pretend I didn't read that, because it still makes just as much sense as the point it's regarding.

It's not about biases, it's about addressing the issue that's topic oriented to the thread.
Although I won't argue the quote you used being said, I argue the validity of it. I haven't seen you attack
anything directly regarding atheism, just some things regarding specific atheists. Poorly drawn out and seemingly aimless
as they were, I was able to gather at least that much from what was said.

The main point is, this is a thread wanting a peaceful Q&A with atheism and theists, you came in screaming sacrilege and
hell fire, throwing accusations and hypocrisy around without regarding the whole point of the thread and even failing one of your most
religious fundamental teachings at the same time. At least to my understanding, last time I checked the bible, it was still in there.

It's not about collecting points, or negating some because they're 'on my side' unlike theists, atheists don't look at it as teams,
it's merely that most of the atheists who actually get it (a lot still don't) simply tend to have the same way of thought.

Now that this is done, let me address the next question.

From an atheists perspective, unlike theists, who tend to need to gather in mass to reassure you're all on the same page as one another;
reassessing each others faith. Don't you find this kind of trivial? If you truly believe in your g-d, what need is there for you to do these weekly saves
to make sure you're on the ball? I get holidays, but damn. It seems more, when atheism comes to mind, it isn't about what you think, it's about
how you think. Atheism is merely a byproduct of that specific way of thought. From my experience it comes off as, rather, a somewhat unnecessary
intellectual checking of sorts. Like reassessing with a good friend whether or not you think you're alright in the noggin still. Seems kind of childish personally.

Do you guys believe churches should even be opened? Why isn't religion a more personally practiced thing instead of a public tap dance extravaganza?
Just saying, live by it as a philosophy and moral guideline, a lot less b/s would happen. I'm cool with you guys believing in whatever you want, just don't spout it
out around everyone else. I said this in a past thread, It somewhat applies.

Treat your religion like your genitals: Don't flash it out in public, and don't force it down your children's throats. Abide by this, and we're a-okay. I still just as thoroughly
disagree with your 'opinions' but, whatever. Why should I bother you?

You are an idiot. BTF never came in here "screaming sacrilege and hell fire, throwing accusations and hypocrisy around without regarding the whole point"Infact that was the point of his message. People like you make me embarrased to be an atheist.

 

[DJBoxhouse]

A little bit ahead of yourself there, but alright. Whatever floats your boat.

For all the others who either misinterpreted the context or didn't read any of my message at all, let me abbreviate.

It's not about points, it's about

1. the point of this thread is non-aggressive, so don't bring outside aggression into the no aggression zone? Harmless Q&A - don't bring past posts into it, it's opinionated, not character constructive you tool.

2. I can, because it is circumstantial based, question aspects of faith because a)the topic of thread. b) the context and content of his previous messages. c) I was discussing actual new testament dogma. d) Nothing that was sent was constructive, little of what he said had any basis, but what DID have basis was in spite and negativity.

Keep that in mind before retorting though, or just stfu about it.

P.S. you're doing the exact same thing, you're no different than him. Good job following the topic. Try answering the question and asking one in your next message. If you're good enough, you might be able to fill in a retort with your A&Q response.

 

[PadawanBater]

These questions from my previous post were not answered yet, so if you (GreenCross) could get to them whenever..

What you both seem to be saying is that faith is something human beings need, right? We need it to be moral to eachother and some people need it to get through their lives as kind of a form of comfort believing there's something more.

But I have an issue with that. I don't believe in faith, I've never looked for strength or comfort in some form of faith. I'm a perfectly nice, reasonable, moral person. I don't break laws, I pay taxes... etc.. Am I simply an exception to your explination? I know a lot of people just like me who are perfectly moral people who don't seem to need faith at all to behave as such.

Also, this one was addressed directly to you also from CrackerJax.

Okay GC, what do YOU think Jesus would say If he came back and saw the Christian faith? Do you think he would approve or disapprove with what has been done in his name..... tell me, please. What do you think he would say?

First ask what is faith? Faith can be described as anything, sort of what 1 poster tried to explain.., Faith can be, you have belief that oncoming traffic won't swerve into your lane and hit you head on.. There is no Law that says it can't happen.. But you have faith that it won't.. Why? Cause a piece of paper says it shouldn't happen, you have faith in man's Law..

This is exactly why faith is useless to me, I wan't to make that clear. It is nothing but subjective interpretation of collected data about reality from faulty recorders, human beings. Plenty of people see aliens all the time, bigfoot too... Why do we consider those people to be somewhat loopy but believers are considered totally normal? I'm not saying they're not normal, just that one belief seems to get criticized without hesitation while the other accepted without criticism. Both hold foundations in faith...

Also, you bring up another great point about why faith is useless. You're exactly right in saying there's no law that says the car in the other lane won't swerve and kill you in a head on collision, none. What benefit does having faith in this man made concept that you believe the other guy won't swerve and kill you have? Does it make the collision less likely to happen? No. Does it increase your chances of survival if the collision does happen? No... Believing it won't happen does nothing to the odds of the event taking place, right?

I'm looking forward to your response.

FAith is the trust in an Idea, assimilated Knowledge, or Experience that conforms to an often plausible or Repeatable truth.. For a person to have Faith in something - The idea, Assimilated knowledge, or Experience - is required of that person.. Therefore, one cannot have faith in something that they lack accounts with.. I can not have Faith in the Flying Spaghetti Monster because I don't trust the idea, the assimilated knowledge is none, and the only experience I have had with the spaghetti monster is after I've eating him.. Indigestion.. You see, I don't have faith in the Flying spaghetti monster..

I looked up the actual definition of faith just to be sure;

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faith

You cannot have faith in something you lack accounts with. You're own words, and I completely agree. Exactly the same way you cannot have faith in the flying spaghetti monster, I cannot have faith in any man made gods.

What experience have you had that grants you an account with the Christian God of the Bible?

I will address the most popular complaints that atheists hold about believers
1) Hypocrites. Enough said. Atheists and believers share one thing... Humanity. Nobody is perfect. You throw that into my face, (even though you dont know me) and I will throw it back into your face with proof from your own actions
2) When you question me about things that hold NO relevance at all. ie, "stoning women for adultery" It's the same as me acusing you of slavery and torturing. You do live in the U.S. correct? And U.S. laws did at one time believe those things. And yes, Gitmo is alive today!!!
3) Oh yeah, You say that believers force their opinion on you. Well, have you ever heard of the 1st ammendment??? Anti religion is anti America
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

btf, 1 is a big generalization. People are hypocrites, agreed. One atheist being a hypocrite and one believer being a hypocrite does not make the whole of atheism or the whole of religion false in and of itself. That's why holding each individual accountable for their actions is important, atheist and believer alike.

2 is not the same at all, the comparisons couldn't even be considered that. Let me explain, and keep in mind there's no hostility at all coming from me on my end, I'm just analysing your post, telling you where I think you might be wrong as nice and friendly as possible. Your doctrine (I say yours because I'm assuming you're a Christian, correct me if I'm wrong) specifically commands such things in the OT, sure it's not relevant to the 21st century but the fact remains, it's there and there are some hardcore fundie believers that take the Bible as the litteral word of the Christian God, OT, NT, gospels, all of it. There is no such doctrine or dogma for atheism, and being an atheist does not require one to adhere to the Judicial system of the United States. For instance, take this website, how many people here alone do you think might be breaking the laws? lol... There is nothing commanding me to adhere to the laws of the US government, infact I get a kick out of the stupidity of a lot of laws all the time.

3, "anti religion is anti America"? Beg your pardon?? Could you elaborate on that bit?

The 1st Amendment simply says Congress cannot officially recognize any religion as America's official religion and they cannot endorse one over the other. We are all free to believe what we wish, whether we want to believe fairies created the Universe out of sugar and spice or a devine creator did in 6 days...or simply nothing at all, and the universe came into existence by purely natural means... whatever you believe, it's your personal decision and the US government has no authority to enforce anything upon it's citizens that they may not believe in. For example, if the USA officially endorsed Christianity and began holding religious events on government land (publicly owned, my tax dollars) it would be against my belief, so why should I be forced to fund it against my will? That's wrong right? It would be the same if we became an Islamic nation, non believers or believers of other religions would be forced to fund mosques and Islamic events, like they do infact in other Islamic dominated countries.

You are not being murdered, fired or tortured over atheism. Infact, I see the opposite happening everyday.
"Trevor Keezor had been working at Home Depot for over a year, when his boss pulled him aside and told him that he'd have to remove a certain pin from his orange apron. The American flag pin said "One nation under God, indivisible." Keezor refused, and he says he was fired for it."

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/07/08/atheist.soldier/index.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination_against_atheists

http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/downey_24_4.htm

 

[DEXTER MORGAN]

A little bit ahead of yourself there, but alright. Whatever floats your boat.

For all the others who either misinterpreted the context or didn't read any of my message at all, let me abbreviate.

It's not about points, it's about

1. the point of this thread is non-aggressive, so don't bring outside aggression into the no aggression zone? Harmless Q&A - don't bring past posts into it, it's opinionated, not character constructive you tool.

2. I can, because it is circumstantial based, question aspects of faith because a)the topic of thread. b) the context and content of his previous messages. c) I was discussing actual new testament dogma. d) Nothing that was sent was constructive, little of what he said had any basis, but what DID have basis was in spite and negativity.

Keep that in mind before retorting though, or just stfu about it.

P.S. you're doing the exact same thing, you're no different than him. Good job following the topic. Try answering the question and asking one in your next message. If you're good enough, you might be able to fill in a retort with your A&Q response.

Why do you find fault with BTF for his "sounds a little bit hypocritical" comment? Which was accurate in every aspect of the meaning. But you dont see any fault with morgentaler calling Babs34 a homophobic cunt? Seems to me like you are a bigot. And if you dont know, a bigot is someone who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ. And wow, I have less than 20 posts but I already have more posts related to growing cannabis than some people with hundreds of posts. You guys really need to get a life, this is very lame

 

[morgentaler]

Why do you find fault with BTF for his "sounds a little bit hypocritical" comment? Which was accurate in every aspect of the meaning. But you dont see any fault with morgentaler calling Babs34 a homophobic cunt? Seems to me like you are a bigot. And if you dont know, a bigot is someone who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ. And wow, I have less than 20 posts but I already have more posts related to growing cannabis than some people with hundreds of posts. You guys really need to get a life, this is very lame

I called her what I did because I got tired of her justifying her opinions with bullshit and then using that bullshit to attack someones sexuality just because she doesn't like it.
Gay people aren't "recruiting", they are not trying to force homosexuality in school etc.
She would get mad at us for attacking religion (not individuals) saying we had no right to do so because no one tries to force religion on us, meanwhile her and Green Cross were pushing for putting religion back in public schools...
Mauihund called atheist monkeys repeatedly. Where is your issue with that? I didn't see you popping in to chastise him. It's just words. Cunt, or monkey, they're intended to show spite for another.
So get off your high horse.

Oh, and if these forums were only about growing they would only have forums about growing. If you're so concerned with the ratio of forum posts per topic, then just go away and work on your pot-only threads.

 

[DEXTER MORGAN]

Im sorry to hear Mauhid called atheists monkeys. I am clearly not a monkey (anymore), and yes I do have a problem with generalized statements like that. Its not something I condone nor have I ever implied that I do condone such actions. My point is simple, you guys are sitting on your high horses attacking everybody who doesnt agree with you on a religious level. And, if you are offended by being called a bigot, I suggest you stop being one.

 

[morgentaler]

Im sorry to hear Mauhid called atheists monkeys. I am clearly not a monkey (anymore), and yes I do have a problem with generalized statements like that. Its not something I condone nor have I ever implied that I do condone such actions. My point is simple, you guys are sitting on your high horses attacking everybody who doesnt agree with you on a religious level. And, if you are offended by being called a bigot, I suggest you stop being one.

I guess if being intolerant of ideas not based on any rational platform makes me a bigot then I am one.

If you were to say "I don't see any specific evidence for or against a creative force, but I believe in the possibility of there being some unknown intelligence which created the universe" then you would be making a deistic statement that makes no specific theistic claim, and can even be considered rational.

If you were to state "There is a god. The bible is incontrovertible proof there is god. The bible is the word of God", then that's a theistic claim with no proof. As is "no prayer in schools makes teenagers pregnant", and "school shootings are caused by atheism".

I do not feel in the least bit guilty for showing contempt for the latter. When people present ignorance as a virtue rewarded by a magical place after death, and their own scripture shows nothing but contempt and hatred for the "unbelievers" their belief system is fair game.

 

[Roseman]

In my world, in my mind, FAITH is believing or accepting the un-seen or un-proven without certain evidence to substaniate it.

The dictionary says something like
Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.

I have never seen an angel, or touched one, I can not prove that they exist, but by FAITH, I do accept that they do exist.

 

[Woodstock.Hippie]

edit:

How many people would have to believe in X-Men-like unseen, yet evolved human characteristics before there are?

Weren't there angels in the Marvel Comics Universe?

I believe there is a boundary beyond the Pillars of Hercules where knowledge vaporizes into belief.

I believe Archangels can be

quite

Good at math?

 

[PadawanBater]

How many people would have to believe in X-Men-like evolved human mutants before there are?

I think you're misunderstanding the concept of existence. In order for something to exist, nothing must believe in it. Existence is independent of belief.

Whether or not anyone believes I exist, it doesn't change the fact that here I sit.

I think you might be confusing "existence" with "meaning". Our lives and existence is meaningless without our senses and perception to experience it.

 

[morgentaler]

I believe there is a boundary between knowledge and belief.

Of course since that boundary is there, you'll never know

 

[CrackerJax]

In my world, in my mind, FAITH is believing or accepting the un-seen or un-proven without certain evidence to substaniate it.

The dictionary says something like
Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.

I have never seen an angel, or touched one, I can not prove that they exist, but by FAITH, I do accept that they do exist.

Hmm... what would Spock say?

 

[MexicanWarlord420]

GreenCross, what makes you so sure that your god and Christianity are the right choices?

Why not Zeus or Vishnu?

What evidence do you have?

Progressives are not trying to disprove god because no god has been proven.

 

[CrackerJax]

Yes.....good point.

Let's extrapolate it out further. Why would G*D wait all those thousands of years to do something. Why would G*D allow all of the lost souls to proceed his word? Why allow false religions BEFORE introducing "the word". What was G*D waiting for? G*D said screw the Romans, Greeks, Egyptians, and the countless numbers of the primitive world?

It doesn't even make sense in that regard..... What's to wait for? If G*D already knows everything.....it seems his plan is awfully convoluted and short sighted.... how can that be?

 

[Woodstock.Hippie]

My concept of a Higher Power includes the concept of mod gods.

Does anyone not believe mod gods exist even though they are nearly impossible to witness?

Has anyone witnessed the fate of those who choose not to surrender to the will of the mod gods and follow the commandments they have set forth?

I believe a mod god was once heard to say unto its peoples "I am a Ganja God because I want to be a Ganja God"

Do you believe Gods have reproduced inside of our Universe in the past?

When did YHWH dictate the Ten Commandments?

Hippie Hint: Nobody gets hurt if nobody throws dirt clods.

Didn't someone nominate "Nobody for President" some time back?

 

[Roseman]

In the Dead Sea Scroll, THE ESSENE GOSPEL OF PEACE, translated by Szekely, there is a story of Jesus sitting around a campfire with some apostles, and Peter asked Jesus
Who is your Father? Who is God?
and Jesus replied
My Father is the LAW that made you.


I think or believe that we make a big mistake by giving God masculinity, and portraying God as a elderly old king-man-being on a throne.
My God is not a Being. My God does not really sit on a throne and have a beard. MY God is not located in one place or in one space.
My God is THE LAW THAT MADE ME. My God is a FORCE, a POWER, a RULE, a BALANCE, a WAY, and a PRINCIPLE that governs and rules all creation.

 

[Roseman]

started writing a book, back in the 80s, never finished it. Its in a box in the barn somewhere. But it is about what could we safely assume or know or figure out about this world and God and life in general, without reading a book or having a Spiritual Leader to tell us.

For an example,

from just living in this world, we can easily see and figure out and know that from time to time, there is always going to be Storms, Rainy days, Cloudy dark days, and Rain Clouds. Rain and storms are just a part of life.
We also talk about bad life experiences as Storms too, in a metaphor way of speaking. When we have what we call BAD LUCK, we say a dark cloud is over us.
So life teaches us that there are always going to be Storms in our day to day lives too. There is going to be illness, there is going to be disputes, there is going to be flat tires on the highway of life, there are going to be unhappiness and battles and struggles, all of which we can call a Storm, or a rainy day, or a rain cloud or dark clouds or dark cloudy days for us.

But there is a silver lining in this thinking.

Without reading a book, Life has also taught me that behind those dark clouds, there is ALWAYS still a blue sky and sunshine waiting on me, and waiting for the clouds to go away to shine for me again. And that profound knowledge gives me hope to face a cloudy day.