Right VS Left

[ilkhan]

"Of all tyrannies a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive.
It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies.
The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
C.S. Lewis

Stop telling me what to do.
Stop pretending government is charity.
And stop pointing guns at people you don't like.

 

[undertheice]

Yes it is greed that fuels capitalism and it is a dying breed. Just like all the other systems that came before, it will disappear.

to be replaced with what? i suppose you would prefer the totalitarian stylings of socialism, but what about that greed? greed is not the creation of capitalism, it is inherent in humanity. most of us manage to temper that tendency toward avarice and allow our more charitable attributes to come forward, this is why capitalism can work. are we supposed to trust in the good intentions of our leaders to guide every facet of our lives? should we give them control over just so much and no more? who is it that will determine where that cut off point is? as long as labor and the means of production are in the hands of the people, they retain enough power to be capable of determining how much of their freedom they will cede to the state.




by the way; having written the post in the first place, i really didn't need to see the whole thing in a nice quotation box. quoting forty some odd lines so you could post your little three line response seems a bit like overkill, don't ya think. i guess you really liked my post.

 

[undertheice]

Stop telling me what to do.

but you must be told what to do because you can't be trusted to get it right on your own. this is the premise upon which the nanny state is built.

Stop pretending government is charity.

but this is the excuse that is used for the theft of your property. without the illusion of good works, it is evident that an intrusive government is nothing more that organized crime.

And stop pointing guns at people you don't like.

but without those guns, you wouldn't do what they say. we can't have folks running around, just doing whatever they please. in case you didn't notice, your government doesn't like you.

 

[Purplekrunchie]

Untill lobbying is outlawed, party affiliation will no difference make. The opportunity to get rich will always trump loyality to ones constituancy.

Well this man finally said something I agree with 100%, campaign finance is a big problem as well, votes are basically paid for.

 

[Rob Roy]

Well this man finally said something I agree with 100%, campaign finance is a big problem as well, votes are basically paid for.

The problem with government IS government. The solution to a problem is not to increase the source of the problem, it is to reduce it.

 

[CrackerJax]

Just stick to the constitution.

 

[medicineman]

to be replaced with what? i suppose you would prefer the totalitarian stylings of socialism, but what about that greed? greed is not the creation of capitalism, it is inherent in humanity. most of us manage to temper that tendency toward avarice and allow our more charitable attributes to come forward, this is why capitalism can work. are we supposed to trust in the good intentions of our leaders to guide every facet of our lives? should we give them control over just so much and no more? who is it that will determine where that cut off point is? as long as labor and the means of production are in the hands of the people, they retain enough power to be capable of determining how much of their freedom they will cede to the state.



There you go supposing, in your paranoid way. I've actually said many times, I don't really know what would replace it. One suggestion I've made is co-op ownership of the corporations, where the employees are the actual owners of the corporation. Getting rid of the Wall street thieves, reforming Banking to do what banks should do, keep money (Savings) and loan money, yes get rid of the FED, make money printing the sole responsibility of the Government, abolish the National debt, IE cancel it out, fuck China, and get America back in the production business. Now of course to accomplish this, one must first reform government. Step #1, make lobbying illegal with horrendous fines and mandatory jail time. Term limite for all congressmen, including senators. Public financing of elections with a reasonable spending limit, and actual electronic voting for any large expensive bills, or civil rights legislation by the people. If they can do it for TV shows, they could do it for the government. I realize these are not real world do-able things at this juncture, but we can dream, can't we?

 

[budsmoker87]

to be replaced with what? i suppose you would prefer the totalitarian stylings of socialism, but what about that greed? greed is not the creation of capitalism, it is inherent in humanity. most of us manage to temper that tendency toward avarice and allow our more charitable attributes to come forward, this is why capitalism can work. are we supposed to trust in the good intentions of our leaders to guide every facet of our lives? should we give them control over just so much and no more? who is it that will determine where that cut off point is? as long as labor and the means of production are in the hands of the people, they retain enough power to be capable of determining how much of their freedom they will cede to the state.



There you go supposing, in your paranoid way. I've actually said many times, I don't really know what would replace it. One suggestion I've made is co-op ownership of the corporations, where the employees are the actual owners of the corporation. Getting rid of the Wall street thieves, reforming Banking to do what banks should do, keep money (Savings) and loan money, yes get rid of the FED, make money printing the sole responsibility of the Government, abolish the National debt, IE cancel it out, fuck China, and get America back in the production business. Now of course to accomplish this, one must first reform government. Step #1, make lobbying illegal with horrendous fines and mandatory jail time. Term limite for all congressmen, including senators. Public financing of elections with a reasonable spending limit, and actual electronic voting for any large expensive bills, or civil rights legislation by the people. If they can do it for TV shows, they could do it for the government. I realize these are not real world do-able things at this juncture, but we can dream, can't we?

i love this post med

+rep

 

[ilkhan]

Just limit the amount you can recieve in campaign donations to 2500 bucks from any one person or orgization.
You have senate canidates with 1200 doners at $500 a plate dinners. (Trey Greyson)
And you have senate canidates with 14000 doners at 75$ each. (Rand Paul)
Which do you think people like better?

Normaly I would agree with you about term limits.
But what happens when you get a good one and don't want him to be booted? (Ron Paul, IMO)
Takeing gratuities from any source should be illegal though.
Donations should be from individuals not groups.

I know most of you didn't take part in Ron Pauls "Money Bombs."
But there is a great feeling seeing those numbers roll up.
When you see something you believe in and know others feel the same way.
Its a great feeling and we made millions every time we did it it.
Almost as good was watching Huckabee's people do the same thing.
He make $11 grand.
We made $4.3 million HAHAHA!

I just don't like the idea of "public funds"
because government then gets to deside who gets to join their raindeer games.
Who divies up all that loot and how?
They already control the debates why give them even total control.

 

[doobnVA]

"Of all tyrannies a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive.
It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies.
The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
C.S. Lewis

Stop telling me what to do.
Stop pretending government is charity.
And stop pointing guns at people you don't like.

LOL... You know C.S. Lewis was a democrat, right?

Using a quote from a democrat to try and prove that democrats are on the wrong side is not only ridiculous, but quite hilariously ironic as well. Thanks for the laugh.

 

[doobnVA]

also important to remember that the most prosperous period of american history- the industrial revolution- occured at a time when private business (the FED) and the public sector didn't work together to enforce the regulations of a central banking system. this is when we had "capitalism" and we thrived

Not true. The industrial revolution began nearly a century before the free banking era. (The free banking era was a period in time lasting about 50 years where we didn't have a national bank. The individual states, however, did have central banks during this period. Prior to this period, we did have a national banking system and after this period the Federal Reserve system was established)

Try again.

 

[medicineman]

Just limit the amount you can recieve in campaign donations to 2500 bucks from any one person or orgization.
You have senate canidates with 1200 doners at $500 a plate dinners. (Trey Greyson)
And you have senate canidates with 14000 doners at 75$ each. (Rand Paul)
Which do you think people like better?

Normaly I would agree with you about term limits.
But what happens when you get a good one and don't want him to be booted? (Ron Paul, IMO)
Takeing gratuities from any source should be illegal though.
Donations should be from individuals not groups.

I know most of you didn't take part in Ron Pauls "Money Bombs."
But there is a great feeling seeing those numbers roll up.
When you see something you believe in and know others feel the same way.
Its a great feeling and we made millions every time we did it it.
Almost as good was watching Huckabee's people do the same thing.
He make $11 grand.
We made $4.3 million HAHAHA!

I just don't like the idea of "public funds"
because government then gets to deside who gets to join their raindeer games.
Who divies up all that loot and how?
They already control the debates why give them even total control.

How about a pool of candidates. Draw numbers and then hand out the funds. Sort of like the lotto. Then anyone, even a lowly citizen with a shitty job could apply. Set standards, college education, pass a civics test, understand the constitution. Participants enter the contest, 40 names are selected by random drawings for each position, tests and qualifications are considered, narrowing it down to the most qualified 5, then another drawing. Voila, the candidate for that party, Or something similar. There could be a way to eliminate mega-greed, and get a government of, for, and by the people.

 

[budsmoker87]

Not true. The industrial revolution began nearly a century before the free banking era. (The free banking era was a period in time lasting about 50 years where we didn't have a national bank. The individual states, however, did have central banks during this period. Prior to this period, we did have a national banking system and after this period the Federal Reserve system was established)

Try again.

the only national central bank, the first bank of america, was for a very short period of time (20 years)...revived once, and abolished. the most growth was seen during the absence of the central banks

and i see you failed to address my post in another thread, about how I was "ripped off" buying silver

everybody on this site is a moron except for you

fuck off

 

[ViRedd]

LOL... You know C.S. Lewis was a democrat, right?

Using a quote from a democrat to try and prove that democrats are on the wrong side is not only ridiculous, but quite hilariously ironic as well. Thanks for the laugh.

Back when C.S. Lewis was around, Democrats were Democrats and not Marxists.

 

[CrackerJax]

C.S. Lewis dem's would be republicans today.

 

[ViRedd]

How about a pool of candidates. Draw numbers and then hand out the funds. Sort of like the lotto. Then anyone, even a lowly citizen with a shitty job could apply. Set standards, college education, pass a civics test, understand the constitution. Participants enter the contest, 40 names are selected by random drawings for each position, tests and qualifications are considered, narrowing it down to the most qualified 5, then another drawing. Voila, the candidate for that party, Or something similar. There could be a way to eliminate mega-greed, and get a government of, for, and by the people.

Uhhh ... I don't think they've taught "civics" since the olden days Med ... you know, like when you and I were in high school.

 

[doobnVA]

the only national central bank, the first bank of america, was for a very short period of time (20 years)...revived once, and abolished. the most growth was seen during the absence of the central banks

and i see you failed to address my post in another thread, about how I was "ripped off" buying silver

everybody on this site is a moron except for you

fuck off

LOL... Wrong again. the first "central" bank in America was established in 1781. It was called "The Bank of North America. It was followed by The First and Second Banks of The United States. There was NEVER a "First Bank of America". The central bank was in place until 1837 when the free banking era began. The free banking era lasted 25 years, after which the Federal Reserve bank was established. You have your history entirely backwards, though I can see how that would happen if you get your history from skimming Wikipedia articles.

So let's do the math...

No central bank = 25 years

Central bank = over 150 years


mmhmm...maybe YOU should fuck off, since you have NO BUSINESS in this debate and no concept of the subject being debated.

 

[doobnVA]

Back when C.S. Lewis was around, Democrats were Democrats and not Marxists.

Um, no. The democratic party's ideology has changed very little since its inception. The only thing that HAS changed, is the presence of right-wing radicals such as yourself who seize upon any opportunity to attempt pejoration of the democratic label.

Democrats are not socialists. If they were, they'd join the SOCIALIST party and cease to be Democrats.

 

[doobnVA]

Uhhh ... I don't think they've taught "civics" since the olden days Med ... you know, like when you and I were in high school.

You should think again.

 

[Rob Roy]

How about a pool of candidates. Draw numbers and then hand out the funds. Sort of like the lotto. Then anyone, even a lowly citizen with a shitty job could apply. Set standards, college education, pass a civics test, understand the constitution. Participants enter the contest, 40 names are selected by random drawings for each position, tests and qualifications are considered, narrowing it down to the most qualified 5, then another drawing. Voila, the candidate for that party, Or something similar. There could be a way to eliminate mega-greed, and get a government of, for, and by the people.

How about a pool of shit? We throw all the candidates in and which ever one floats to the top we annoint as elected?
Oh wait we already do that.

A government of, for and by the people would be a town meeting style where each person is their own representative. Even that fails as truly representing "everyone" since some people might decline to participate or be in a minority should a group vote occur.

Majority rule, is not representative of everyone and can be quite oppressive to those wishing not to be ruled.
We have never had a "self governing" country, just the illusion through majority mandates that all people are represented.

That leaves me to believe that Voluntaryism, or self ownership is a natural answer. You and others like you form whichever cooperatives you'd like.
Call it government or what ever you like.

Under Voluntaryism. I'll leave you alone as long as you leave me and others alone that wish not to be "represented". You get what you want, the ability to pool resources and be part of a system you'd like. People like me aren't forced to join, or fund, or use your system. We get what we want, the ability to be left alone and live our lives peacfully.

The only thing stopping Voluntaryism from working is that some busy bodies can't conceive of leaving other peaceful people alone. Busy bodies are so sure of their ideas and how others should run their lives they will use the power of the gun to enforce their will over others all the while declaring their idea as "for your own good". Shameful, intrusive and violent, but that is government
for you.