Obama's address to congress.......

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
The state exchanges will quickly break down into total regulatory bodies. read past the language.... read the data already accumulated in Massachusetts.... the same model. It's a big failure.
Everyone loses choice.... everyone loses quality.... it's a loser.

Check out Massachusetts and get back to me. it isn't pretty, I'll tell you that. that's the model.... the model of failure.
http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2009/03/02/mass_healthcare_reform_is_failing_us/
MASSACHUSETTS HAS been lauded for its healthcare reform, but the program is a failure. Created solely to achieve universal insurance coverage, the plan does not even begin to address the other essential components of a successful healthcare system.
Sounds bad! So I kept reading on...

What would such a system provide? The prestigious Institute of Medicine, part of the National Academy of Sciences, has defined five criteria for healthcare reform. Coverage should be: universal, not tied to a job, affordable for individuals and families, affordable for society, and it should provide access to high-quality care for everyone.
The state's plan flunks on all counts.


First, it has not achieved universal healthcare, although the reform has been a boon to the private insurance industry. The state has more than 200,000 without coverage, and the count can only go up with rising unemployment.


Second, the reform does not address the problem of insurance being connected to jobs. For individuals, this means their insurance is not continuous if they change or lose jobs. For employers, especially small businesses, health insurance is an expense they can ill afford.


Third, the program is not affordable for many individuals and families. For middle-income people not qualifying for state-subsidized health insurance, costs are too high for even skimpy coverage. For an individual earning $31,213, the cheapest plan can cost $9,872 in premiums and out-of-pocket payments. Low-income residents, previously eligible for free care, have insurance policies requiring unaffordable copayments for office visits and medications.


Fourth, the costs of the reform for the state have been formidable. Spending for the Commonwealth Care subsidized program has doubled, from $630 million in 2007 to an estimated $1.3 billion for 2009, which is not sustainable.


Fifth, reform does not assure access to care. High-deductible plans that have additional out-of-pocket expenses can result in many people not using their insurance when they are sick. In my practice of child and adolescent psychiatry, a parent told me last week that she had a decrease in her job hours, could not afford the $30 copayment for treatment sessions for her adolescent, and decided to meet much less frequently.
So lets look at this in context of the senate bill:

1. Stays the same, not everyone will be covered.
2. Still connected to jobs, but they have language that says you can keep the same insurance if you change jobs, so that gap in coverage is no longer there, so they fixed that.
3. Low income families will have subsidies and other federal discounts available to fix this part up, still won't be perfect, or even the optimal system, but it will be an improvement over the current system.
4. They spend a lot of money. So I decided to find out a little more about Mass.



Mass. spends the most money per capita on healthcare in the country. But this chart is from 2004, and the new system was not put into place until 2006. So this is outdated. Great read: http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/89xx/doc8972/MainText.3.1.shtml

Check this link for current trends: http://www.mass.gov/Ihqcc/docs/meetings/2009_02_04_cost_projections_cost_containment_committee.ppt

What you will see is that their healthcare cost per capita was rising very fast in 2004.

Why could that be?

Issue: Demographic change

The most salient statistics in a gubernatorial campaign typically involve crime, taxes, and jobs, but this year they are joined by one of the simplest measurements of all: the number of people who live here. According to US Census Bureau estimates, Massachusetts is the only state in the nation to lose population for two years in a row (from 2003 to 2005). This “Mass Exodus” may seriously hamper efforts to bring new jobs to the state, since highly skilled workers seem especially inclined to move elsewhere. And as young, native-born residents continue to leave, two groups are expected to make up growing shares of the Massachusetts population: people over 65, including many who are ready to leave the workforce, and immigrants, many of whom require English instruction and job training.

In every year since 1990, Massachusetts has lost more residents to other states than it has gained. The Census Bureau estimates a net loss of 169,606 residents just from 2000 to 2004, which amounts to an annual decrease of 6.6 per 1,000 residents. (Maine and New Hampshire each had a net increase of about 30,000 over the same period, suggesting that not everyone leaving Massachusetts is doing so because of the weather.) Only New York lost a bigger share of its population, but its loss rate was lower than in the 1990s, while the Bay State’s has accelerated. The Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. (FDIC), in its Summer 2006 analysis of the state, warned, “Domestic outmigration has…worsened in recent years, a pattern that does not bode well for the state’s economy.” The FDIC also noted that Massachusetts saw a decline of 4.8 percent in 25-to-34-year-olds from 2000 to 2004, while the US as a whole saw an increase of 0.5 percent in the same category — another warning sign, since “this group can set the pace for economic development as they join the workforce and form households.”
They are losing their healthy younger people. So that would be a very direct reason for the per capita spending on this to go up.

So they are losing about 6.6 younger healthier people per 1000 residents, and are ahead of the us trend in rising healthcare about 1.3 percent. Seems like a very direct cause to me.


So is mass. could the costs of healthcare be rising at such a fast cause because of the younger people leaving (has been going on far longer than the health insurance reform there has been) and not because of the reform?


5. Out of pocket costs and deductibles are tough, all of the insurance programs have them. But with the federal plan if people cannot pay there is programs that they can get onto to help out their children.




I cannot find anything conclusive that is saying people are 'losing choices' or 'losing quality' I have found articles saying that about 1/2 the medical graduates are leaving the state, but you will find that in any field in any state, that about 1/2 the people that graduate do not end up staying in the state. And I have found that in rural areas there are shortages of primary care doctors, but that is the same anywhere you go, rural areas are so spread out, that people don't want to drive to the doctor that is available, so instead say they cannot find one.

lest we forget about how Obama is now going to cut back on medicare.... there goes the senior vote. You never want to piss off the seniors.... but what can he do? The system is belly up fiscally. How can that be?

Surely it will be done better with national health care ......... right????

use ur heads...........
http://blogs.wsj.com/health/2009/02/26/obama-budget-cuts-medicare-advantage-helps-generic-biotech/


This is just a play on words. Cutting costs of worthless practices that cost money and have zero benefit is technically 'cut backs', but what is intended by saying that is nothing even close to the truth.

You know that when doctors treat viruses about 50% of the time (this is a fact not just made up) they will prescribe antibiotics?

Do you know the reason why this is a bad thing?

It is because antibiotics are 100% ineffective against viruses. And that is just wasted money. How many billions every year need to be spent for nothing? Absolutely garbage that they are allowed to do this, they are wasting everyones money to prescribe what is essentially a sugar pill.

And there is another side to this, eventually when those people get a bacteria infection, they already have built up immunities to those antibiotics. So it is MUCH more expensive to then treat them, because of over prescribing garbage.

These 'cuts' are made to seem like someone is going to kick out their cane from underneath them, but that cannot be the farthest from the truth. And I feel irresponsible of the people reporting this garbage, because they are stirring up fear in the elderly, when really it is to help everyone.

There are thousands of examples of waste in the system that can be 'cut'. But as soon as the government tries to do some good and change a system that is becoming the bloated monster that you all seem to hate so much, the other side sits there and shouts "THEY ARE CUTTING BENEFITS!!!" and the bloated monster continues to roll sucking up everything in its wake.

Let go, allow them to cut out the B.S. like acne treatment for medicaid and make everything more manageable. And then lets get the people to become covered with insurance, because they are not doing it on their own, and start to clean up this mess that we call our healthcare system.
 

CrackerJax

New Member
You said:

They are losing their healthy younger people. So that would be a very direct reason for the per capita spending on this to go up.

So they are losing about 6.6 younger healthier people per 1000 residents, and are ahead of the us trend in rising healthcare about 1.3 percent. Seems like a very direct cause to me.


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This is the result of having polluted pools of insurance. When you yell free care.... all the sick ppl literally run, walk or wjheel themselves down to sign up. Now the mandates placed upon the insurers insist they accept these ppl. Problem is it drives costs through the roof and puts healthy ppl at a distinct disadvantage economically. It's almost as if in Mass. you get PUNISHED for being healthy. So the healthy young ppl.... who don't NEED health care insurance in the first place, quit the program.

Now Obama says, well how about if that person isn't allowed to quit. Or that person has to pay either way. Sound fair to you? Sound constitutional?

It's completely unconstitutional. The govt. hasn't the right to run a business. We all can see what happens when they do....right? And yet, that point is constantly ignored. Obama plan will start hitting yearly deficits in just 3 years.... just enough time to get reelected.... it's a sham.

After 3 years then it really starts to take off into trillions of debt. Unstoppable program with an ever growing debt......

Sound familiar? Except this will be nearly 20% of the entire output of every man, woman, and child in the USA each year. It will cripple us.

45% of doctors are considering quitting ovwer this.... I don't blame them.

By the way, take a look at Britains Doctor shortages..... they are overworked and underpaid. That's not going to be my future doctor. I can afford the best. You however,.... that is ur future. You just remember ol' Cracker when they give you an aspirin for that broken arm, and they tell you to walk it off. :lol:

It doesn't work..... no model of socialized medicine has worked so far. None.
 

doobnVA

Well-Known Member
It doesn't work..... no model of socialized medicine has worked so far. None.

If it doesn't work, then why isn't everyone else scrambling to change their systems to mirror ours?

Why do people in other countries protest AGAINST "US-style" health care?
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
And really by your definition, any program that has not failed should be qualified as failed? I mean doesn't england, france, sweden, norway, ect all have health care that is still running?

So really you should say that there is not any current form of health care that is sustainable? I guess that is more to the truth of it, so in void of that we had better find the best system that we can, and being 37th in quality, and number 1 in cost is not the right way to go about it.


And people leave states, not because of health insurance, they leave due to unemployment rates.

Havn't those doctor polls had already been debunked? Is that not the same ones that Stephan Hawkins tricked with his voice box not having an English accent? And write in polls with only 1% reported are not the best way to report it.
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
And people leave states, not because of health insurance, they leave due to unemployment rates.
Thats not true at all, most people leave states for something better in another state. My state has nearly full employment, we have billions in the bank, so much they decided to cut property taxes in half AND give us an income tax break. Still I see hiring signs up all over the place, No one wants to come to my state where the average salary is around $33,000. Thats $12,000 less than the average national salary. It is a big problem in our state when 70% of your college grads leave the state for employment elsewhere.
 

CrackerJax

New Member
If it doesn't work, then why isn't everyone else scrambling to change their systems to mirror ours?

Why do people in other countries protest AGAINST "US-style" health care?
Because upward trajectory takes great inertia. The EU doesn't have that inertia. They are on a one way path.... downward.

This is part of my overall issue is with some of you. Ppl think that if this doesn't work, we can just start over..... uhhh... no. It is not going to happen. We have practically run our credit lines to the max already. As the tax burden buries the average citizen, GDP will decline. Upward inertia will become less and less possible with each passing year.

Some things can sink even the largest ships. This iceberg can sink us all..... and then we'd be stuck... just like the EU is.
 

jrh72582

Well-Known Member
You know what riddle me not. How about you put down the spin papers, and go do some actual reading up on the insurance business. Not the politics of the insurance business. Do some reading about the nuts and bolts and what goes into making these pools.

It's fool hardy to comment on something you don't grasp. Once you have the fundamental economics down... the govt BS will leap out at you.
Again with the logical fallacies. You keep appealing to your authority, but you have none. You're a cut and paster. I know people who write books on economics and have asked them their opinions on this whole health care business. Some agree with it, some disagree, but none are as arrogant in their responses. You keep saying, "if only you understood economics," but I know some very popular economists who would disagree with most of what you say. Your opinion is so skewed man. It's sickening.

I've really begun to wonder - why do you spend so much time here? Why do put so much effort into copying and pasting articles, trying to convince others of your BS. Think about the logical conclusions to these questions. It's fascinating. You're like Dwight on the Office - when I tell stories of you, no one believes them. They cannot imagine someone would act so arrogantly with no ethos whatsoever.
 

doobnVA

Well-Known Member
I think you mean "momentum"... not inertia =)

Although now that I think about it, we DO have a lot of inertia going on, especially in regards to health reform.
 

CrackerJax

New Member
No... in using upward trajectory, the mind thinks of a rocket. A rocket uses inertia to gain altitude... not momentum. Momentum is what we will feel when the numbers start to cascade on the economy..... wait for it. It's coming.... right to you.
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
But isn't that a copout? Isn't the current trend already going to cause the massive drop? That is like saying that if my doctor is not able to remove my inoperable brain tumor gets worse I am going to die because the doctor killed me. You already are going to die from the tumor, it was more if the doctor was able to give you more time.
 

doobnVA

Well-Known Member
:wall::wall::wall:
No... in using upward trajectory, the mind thinks of a rocket. A rocket uses inertia to gain altitude... not momentum. Momentum is what we will feel when the numbers start to cascade on the economy..... wait for it. It's coming.... right to you.

Rockets use PROPULSION to gain altitude. Once they are in the air, THEN inertia kicks in (an object in motion will stay in motion, etc.)


http://genesismission.jpl.nasa.gov/educate/scimodule/LaunchPropulsion/LP_PDFs/B8_STnewtonslaws.pdf

Of course, I'm sure you'll find some way to explain how NASA doesn't really know anything about rockets.

I think I may have given you more credit than you deserve in terms of intellect. It's pretty obvious now that you're a "98er".
 

londonfog

Well-Known Member
:wall::wall::wall:


Rockets use PROPULSION to gain altitude. Once they are in the air, THEN inertia kicks in (an object in motion will stay in motion, etc.)


http://genesismission.jpl.nasa.gov/educate/scimodule/LaunchPropulsion/LP_PDFs/B8_STnewtonslaws.pdf

Of course, I'm sure you'll find some way to explain how NASA doesn't really know anything about rockets.

I think I may have given you more credit than you deserve in terms of intellect. It's pretty obvious now that you're a "98er".
I realize just how little he knows as well, but trys to put himself out like he is the expert on everything... Like I said once before lonely old guy sitting at pc eating cheetos in his underwear blogging all day because he mad Obama won...straight fraud.. He almost made me stop coming on this site because of his BS, but then thought why the phuck would I allow him to chase me away from the best grow forum out .... Now I just see him for what he is.... A Obama hater who to ashame to claim republican party and now says he is MR. Independent ...Hey maybe he Lou Dobbs
 

doobnVA

Well-Known Member
I realize just how little he knows as well, but trys to put himself out like he is the expert on everything... Like I said once before lonely old guy sitting at pc eating cheetos in his underwear blogging all day because he mad Obama won...straight fraud.. He almost made me stop coming on this site because of his BS, but then thought why the phuck would I allow him to chase me away from the best grow forum out .... Now I just see him for what he is.... A Obama hater who to ashame to claim republican party and now says he is MR. Independent ...Hey maybe he Lou Dobbs[/QUOTE


Indeed. Have some +rep, londonfog.
 

CrackerJax

New Member
Let us simplify matters by also assuming the launch is from some point in space, so that the thrust of the engine only has to overcome the rocket's inertia. In launches from the ground, part of the thrust is needed to overcome gravity too

Not that it is germane to the discussion.... deflect away.
 

londonfog

Well-Known Member
lets also just say when the launch was made Cracker was on that ship and was lost in space with his pc never to blog again
 

ViRedd

New Member
I'm wasn't a physics major, but isn't enertia a force that must be overcome by a greater force in order to achieve momentum? Wouldn't it be correct to say that the rocket needs propulsion to overcome the force of enertia to facilitate momentum?
 

CrackerJax

New Member
I was using inertia as the energy thrust needed to achieve upwards economic numbers. The rocket was simply an illustration, which seems to confuse the lib's greatly.

socialist economies lack inertia. They are second rate economies, and always have been. There has NEVER been a successful "trickle up" economy.



That's the THRUST of the post. Accurate as usual. Prove me wrong.
 

londonfog

Well-Known Member
The trickle up effect states that benefits to the wealthy will be realized due to an increase in sales relative to the amount of benefits that are given to the poor. The trickle up effect argues itself as more effective than the trickle down effect because people who have less tend to buy more. In other words, the poor are more inclined than the wealthy to spend their money. This being so, proponents of the trickle up effect believe that if the lower and lower-middle classes are given benefits, such as tax breaks or subsidies, the increased funds would be spent at a much higher rate than would the upper class, given similar fund increases. Furthermore, the trickle up effect argues, many upper-class individuals do not spend their entire yearly salary to begin with, which is an indication that they will not spend any additional funds. Instead, they will save additional funds, thereby withholding those funds from the economy and increasing the gap between the rich and the poor. The trickle up effect avoids this pitfall by giving more money to those who would be more inclined to spend....
 

londonfog

Well-Known Member
When you give the rich tax breaks and cuts most time they do not put it back in the economy....Its saved by them and very often in overseas accounts..Take that same tax break or cut on the poor and you see they will still spend ..this is proven time and time again.....even Bush saw this when he gave out the stimulus checks...why did he do it.....to boost the spending and help the economy...
 

doobnVA

Well-Known Member
I was using inertia as the energy thrust needed to achieve upwards economic numbers. The rocket was simply an illustration, which seems to confuse the lib's greatly.

socialist economies lack inertia. They are second rate economies, and always have been. There has NEVER been a successful "trickle up" economy.



That's the THRUST of the post. Accurate as usual. Prove me wrong.

This is so funny...You STILL don't know what inertia is!

Inertia is NOT energy, it literally translates (from latin) as "laziness".

Yes, Vi, a rocket has to OVERCOME inertia during launch - also once it enters the vacuum of space it uses inertia to continue on its path (because an object at rest stays at rest, and an object in motion will stay in motion, etc).

Apparently CrackerJax is SO smart, he makes up his own definitions and then looks down his nose at US because we don't have the 3rd edition CrackerJax dictionary.

And, as usual, he refuses to accept that he is wrong. Dead wrong.
 
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