no growth on mostly whole sphagnum

[rogerrabbit]

I tried 8 10 liter trash cans (filled with whole sphagnum and a little perlite). They had the bottom 1/8 cut out and replaced with tight mesh net for air and water movement. They were sitting in a shallow reservoir. It didn’t go too well. Many died b/c the moss held so much water. There was very little growth in general but the physiology and color seemed ok. Sorry no camera. This was a learning exp with brick seed. I hope to do something better with the Attitude seeds that are in the mail.

Nutes are: Fish Emulsion, Schultz Rose Granular, and molasses. I mixed for NPK 122 50 120, but! I presoaked the sphagnum in plain water. I guess this was a mistake because during feeding the moss absorbs unpredictable amounts of nutes thus making them temporarily unavailable to the plants. The EC meter is in the mail.

I believe pH is around 6, a better meter is also in the mail. Topside temps varied between upper 70s and 90 the reservoir never got above 80. There is lots of air moving. They are under a 400w MH although like two feet away. I didn’t give the plants any dark period, will next time. I am planning to do wicks instead to reduce dampness and eliminate a source of light on the roots.

I’d appreciate feedback from people who have experience with whole sphagnum (versus peat moss). I like it b/c renewable, low environmental impact. I still have a lot left and it is not “cheap”. Also to reduce mining and give the roots some space, I plan to add a bunch of ground styrofoam and just use perlite at the top near the stem. I plan to make a little germinating area on top with verm + perlite and do the rest styrofoam + moss with some gravel at the bottom. Feedback? My only guess about what went wrong is that the roots were unable to develop probably because of dampness but maybe whole sphagnum is not an appropriate medium for seedlings… any one else?

 

[doobnVA]

Whoa, dude... that's some serious N-P-K ratio right there. I start my seedlings in a sphagnum/vermiculite mix with NO NUTES, and they grow beautifully.

I'm willing to bet it's overnuting that's keeping them from growing. Baby seedlings don't need any nutes, doesn't matter what medium you're growing in.

 

[rogerrabbit]

Basically it seems like the moss dries out too uniformly. For a short plant there is not enough space between the upper dry zone and lower wet zone. Maybe adding a lot more filler to the moss will help.

 

[doobnVA]

Dude.. I just told you I grow in sphagnum and have no problems with it.

It's not a moisture issue, it's your heavy, heavy nutes.

That's too much fert for a GROWN plant, let a lone a seedling.

 

[rogerrabbit]

Whoa, dude... that's some serious N-P-K ratio right there. I start my seedlings in a sphagnum/vermiculite mix with NO NUTES, and they grow beautifully.

I'm willing to bet it's overnuting that's keeping them from growing. Baby seedlings don't need any nutes, doesn't matter what medium you're growing in.

Thanks doobnVA!

That NPK ratio is what I read recommended for the first 2 weeks.

This is hydro right? There is nothing in the medium, so how does the plant grow?

I know the sprout forms from the carbs in the seed, but once the green comes out isn't it PSing and needing nutes from the soil?

 

[rogerrabbit]

Dude.. I just told you I grow in sphagnum and have no problems with it.

It's not a moisture issue, it's your heavy, heavy nutes.

That's too much fert for a GROWN plant, let a lone a seedling.

Yeah, I am a complete novice. I had success one time with soil, might ditch the hydro idea.

About the nutes, just seems strange that a 5 inch plant can grow out of just a seed.

Ok Sir, what day after germ do you start feeding and at what levels?

 

[doobnVA]

Thanks doobnVA!

That NPK ratio is what I read recommended for the first 2 weeks.

This is hydro right? There is nothing in the medium, so how does the plant grow?

I know the sprout forms from the carbs in the seed, but once the green comes out isn't it PSing and needing nutes from the soil?

Baby plants have their own built in food. That first set of "leaves", which aren't really leaves at all, are called cotyledons. They feed the plant until it establishes a strong enough root system. Once those start to yellow and die, THEN it's time to start adding some LIGHT nutrients, building up to higher levels as the plant matures.

Where did you read that?!! That ratio you posted is WAY too high. WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY too high.

Divide the ratio you've got going now by 10, and you might have better luck.

 

[doobnVA]

About the nutes, just seems strange that a 5 inch plant can grow out of just a seed.

Teehee... that premise cracks me up. Plants grow just fine in nature without any added fertilizers at all. That's what they do =)

It's okay to be a novice. Hydro definitely takes more fine tuning to get right than growing in soil, that's for sure. Don't give up! Just chill out on the nutes and you'll have in no time.

 

[doobnVA]

I'd go with something along the lines of maybe 20-5-15 for vegging, again, starting at very diluted strength and slowly working up to a stronger dose. For flowering, you wanna flip into something like 10-20-10.

Check out the n-p-k ratios on these nutrients from FoxFarm, that everyone raves about for growing cannabis:

http://foxfarmfertilizer.com/products_liqfert1.html

Now see why I was so shocked with your 122-50-120 ratio?

EDIT: Here's a pic of one of my babies, in sphagnum/vermiculate, NO nutes, 2 weeks old! =)

 

[rogerrabbit]

In nature the fert is in the soil, still there all the same. I don't get the joke.

Sorry I didn't state before my values are PPM not percentage. Maybe that is why you were shocked. 100 PPM nitrogen is actually modest (again from what I've read).

https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/3476-ppm-question.html

Any case, you've given me a great experiment, see how long a seed will grow with no nutes in the water.

Teehee... that premise cracks me up. Plants grow just fine in nature without any added fertilizers at all. That's what they do =)

It's okay to be a novice. Hydro definitely takes more fine tuning to get right than growing in soil, that's for sure. Don't give up! Just chill out on the nutes and you'll have in no time.

 

[rogerrabbit]

Ah ha this explains it! You are using ground peat moss, not whole dried sphagnum plants. There is a big difference (in price too). I tried to explain in the original post. Thanks for chiming in. I believe the stuff you have has started to decompose and feeds your plants.

 

[tea tree]

do you mean like premeir peat moss? It looks like dirt? If so then forget the trying to call it hydro. Just nute it up with dry ferts and some perlite and some dolomite. I also add some worm casts and compost. Let it cook for a month or so. By cook I mean let it sit lightly wetted in the sun but covered. This will let the soil form a food web with bacteria and fungi and the like. They will break all the npk down and feed the plant as she commands. Quiet easily. Water once a week. The reason they call peat hydro is because plain peat is nutrient barren as opposed to having some npk already sitting around in the form of broken down organic materials. Once you amend it then you got soil. Some compost some blood and bone and kelp and worm casts and you got a soil. The blood and bone and kelp all break down to give all the micro nutrients that the peat lacked. I forgot to say that peat is also called soiless and people use hydro nutes sometimes as it lacks the minerals that a fully formed soil has. Amending it also serves to give the peat these. Trust me. This style of growing is so easy you will laugh your ass off. Just add water. Sometimes a compost tea for fun. A little kick of microbes maybe if you are careful. But seriously you need to add nothing. The growth is phenominal if you get it right. The plant can eat all it wants. CHecl out subcools super soil thread or google super soil or water only mj grows.

I might be wrong and you have that long cut moss that is supposed to wick up moisture as some sort of hydro. That is interesting. I gues then you need hydro nutes for full benefit and I think that an ebb and flow or hand water every few days will be best.

 

[doobnVA]

Ah ha this explains it! You are using ground peat moss, not whole dried sphagnum plants. There is a big difference (in price too). I tried to explain in the original post. Thanks for chiming in. I believe the stuff you have has started to decompose and feeds your plants.

It's not peat. It's sphagnum. Maybe not "whole", but it certainly isn't peat.

AH, PPM!!! Okay, that explains it.. here I was thinking you were completely insane

Nope, like I said before, a seedling has all it needs for the first few weeks of life built right into it.

 

[doobnVA]

LOL@ me... apparently 3 beers makes me stupid nowadays.

You're right, I just looked at the bag and it says sphagnum PEAT.. I always thought they were two different things entirely.

Oh well,, carry on!

 

[rogerrabbit]

Hi TeaTree nice to hear from you.

Yeah I bought dried whole sphagnum plants. Similar plant matter is the primary ingredient in most all soil mixes. Different varieties sold at various levels of chopping, compressing, decomposing, and with various amendments. All moss is not rendered equally - thus the confusion about is or isn't this hydro.

I don't think my sphagnum has any nutes, I believe the stuff doobnVA is growing in does.

I looked at the super soil recipe. I need something cheap and simple. Probably that means going back to soil. Pure hydro may be a little much for me at this point.

Thank you both for the encouragement!

do you mean like premeir peat moss? It looks like dirt? If so then forget the trying to call it hydro. Just nute it up with dry ferts and some perlite and some dolomite. I also add some worm casts and compost. Let it cook for a month or so. By cook I mean let it sit lightly wetted in the sun but covered. This will let the soil form a food web with bacteria and fungi and the like. They will break all the npk down and feed the plant as she commands. Quiet easily. Water once a week. The reason they call peat hydro is because plain peat is nutrient barren as opposed to having some npk already sitting around in the form of broken down organic materials. Once you amend it then you got soil. Some compost some blood and bone and kelp and worm casts and you got a soil. The blood and bone and kelp all break down to give all the micro nutrients that the peat lacked. I forgot to say that peat is also called soiless and people use hydro nutes sometimes as it lacks the minerals that a fully formed soil has. Amending it also serves to give the peat these. Trust me. This style of growing is so easy you will laugh your ass off. Just add water. Sometimes a compost tea for fun. A little kick of microbes maybe if you are careful. But seriously you need to add nothing. The growth is phenominal if you get it right. The plant can eat all it wants. CHecl out subcools super soil thread or google super soil or water only mj grows.

I might be wrong and you have that long cut moss that is supposed to wick up moisture as some sort of hydro. That is interesting. I gues then you need hydro nutes for full benefit and I think that an ebb and flow or hand water every few days will be best.

 

[doobnVA]

I think the only thing the sphagnum peat has is nitrogen, from decomposing. Of course, that's the Coors Light talking, and not based on any actual knowledge.

I'd love to try a hydro setup, or even DWC, but I don't think I'm ready. I'm trying organic this time around. Mixing up my own soil, even! Fortunately, I'm out of weed, so I might actually get it right. =)

 

[rogerrabbit]

Since a VA guy aluded to acting crazy and smoking... I love my VaporGenie from Blackburgs VA, and it really feels like less pollutants going to the knoggen, and I make fewer big mistakes later.

 

[v12xjs]

Hey rogerrabbit

I've been experimenting with sphagnum moss. I did something a bit like you but with a hempy bucket instead of a separate res. I got lots of problems but mostly symptoms of heavy overwatering, so I've emptied out the res and when I water I pour off the excess. It seems to be working well and the plant has recovered to produce some nice young buds now.
With my last plant I also noticed something you should be aware of. The moss holds on to nutes for a very long time. I only used 750ppm bloom nutes and while I was flushing it I was getting 500ppm in the runoff for 10 days before it started to come down, so I had to do an extra week of flushing.