Why are Americans so afraid of Socialism?

[CrackerJax]

Free markets (private insurance included) work if left alone. If company A decides to "rape" it customers, company B is always ready to UNDERCUT them.

If however the Govt. cannot run in the black, they merely INCREASE the rates. there is no competition....see? This is exactly why it is imperative for Obama to get rid of private health care. he wants to make sure there is no Company B for you to run to.

 

[TheBrutalTruth]

I believe that socialist and capitalist policies can work with each other. When you believe strictly in one system you are headed for disaster. There is a difference between communism and socialism, USSR was communist, and what you described was communism. Some people forget that.

They can't, the last 100 years (since 1913) has proved that.

It is impossible to trust some one that is not you (and thus knows everything about the kind of situation you are in) with your life.

Now, if you want to slave for the Federal Government that is your business, but what all your socialists are saying is that you want me to be a slave as well.

As far as preventitive medicine...

How about eating right?

But to think that I'm going to support you forcing me to pay for some other imbeciles poor life-style choices is just asinine. It is not my fault, nor the farmers, nor the processors that they are fat. It is their own fault, for their lack of utilizing the information that the Federal Government requires to be placed on most products, to be made available.

If a person fails to take care of themselves, then that is their own fault, and thus should be their own responsibility to deal with.

No one held a gun up to their head and forced them to eat McDonalds two or three or five times day. No one forced them to sit like a sheep in front of a TV listening to the mindless baaing of the sheep on TV.

Forcing other people into slavery for the benefit of those that failed to take care of themselves is just as bad as what the South was doing.

Socialism is built around the concept of slavery, no matter how much or how little you have of it, and there is no such thing as just a little bit socialist. Any Socialist institutions make a country socialist.

Besides, what right do you have to prevent people who worked hard for their money from being able to take care of themselves.

Instead of bitching about those that worked for their success, why don't you bitch about the government who's stealing money from you (15% for Payroll) no matter how little you earn.

At $16K/year that's $2K more that you could put in your pocket to go learn a skill that would help you help yourself.

The hand that government extends isn't a hand up, but a hand out to throttle any one it gets a grip on so they can be held down in ignorance, and servility.

 

[dontexist21]

They can't, the last 100 years (since 1913) has proved that.

It is impossible to trust some one that is not you (and thus knows everything about the kind of situation you are in) with your life.

Now, if you want to slave for the Federal Government that is your business, but what all your socialists are saying is that you want me to be a slave as well.

As far as preventitive medicine...

How about eating right?

But to think that I'm going to support you forcing me to pay for some other imbeciles poor life-style choices is just asinine. It is not my fault, nor the farmers, nor the processors that they are fat. It is their own fault, for their lack of utilizing the information that the Federal Government requires to be placed on most products, to be made available.

If a person fails to take care of themselves, then that is their own fault, and thus should be their own responsibility to deal with.

No one held a gun up to their head and forced them to eat McDonalds two or three or five times day. No one forced them to sit like a sheep in front of a TV listening to the mindless baaing of the sheep on TV.

Forcing other people into slavery for the benefit of those that failed to take care of themselves is just as bad as what the South was doing.

Socialism is built around the concept of slavery, no matter how much or how little you have of it, and there is no such thing as just a little bit socialist. Any Socialist institutions make a country socialist.

Besides, what right do you have to prevent people who worked hard for their money from being able to take care of themselves.

Instead of bitching about those that worked for their success, why don't you bitch about the government who's stealing money from you (15% for Payroll) no matter how little you earn.

At $16K/year that's $2K more that you could put in your pocket to go learn a skill that would help you help yourself.

The hand that government extends isn't a hand up, but a hand out to throttle any one it gets a grip on so they can be held down in ignorance, and servility.

I never said that I am against people working and making money, if I did show me. I have worked since I was 10 years old in my parents restaurant, so I know the meaning of working for everything that I own. My parents work 12hrs a day 7 days a week in their small business. Yet we still cannot afford proper coverage. Tell me how that works out in the end. Not everyone can be as lucky as you, even when they work and pay their taxes. Tell me how that is fair. There is a reason that the government had to step in, it was called the Great Depression. I am just saying we should look at Sweden, there system is light years ahead of ours. Maybe not copy it but mold it into a system that would fit our country.

 

[TheBrutalTruth]

I will say this again, we actually pay more for health care when everyone is NOT insured then when everyone is. People get sick to the point of dead since they cannot afford health care, go on medicare or medicaid, now the government has to pay to keep them from dieing. It is A LOT cheaper to keep someone healthy then to keep them from dieing. The system we have now is already criminal. Look at Sweden's health care system, look at ours, which one is more efficient.

You're a short-sighted buffoon aren't you.

Let's think about this...

My dental $9K over 4 months (I had some savings of my own that I was able to use)

Dental policy $30+ over the rest of my life, which will probably be measured at over 500 months. (40+ years)

That's $15K

The long term would be more expensive.

While the short term does force me to squeeze my budget a bit, I'd sooner do that then have the added stress of trying to deal with yet another bill.



It'd be even worse if the government got involved, because under government they'd probably insist that it was only $30/month for you, and then rape you (through your employer) for another $100/month for dental.

Short-sighted, and ignorant of real economics.

Go take a good hard look at your next paystub... maybe you'll see something new to you.

At least I hope so, your ignorance and short-sightedness is sickening, as is your advocation of enslaving others for your benefit.

 

[Twistyman]

When I sued I got $40,000... here our judgments aren't like yours..even my lawyer said if I was in the US the suit would have been for over 1,000,000.... if I got that"maybe" I'd have been willing to pay..there the suits are so blown out of proportion by the lawyers and if you don't think you all pay that you're wrong..thats socializing malpractice and injury torts....

I was polite and civil just voicing my opinion..... and you come back with that ass remark, you're a class act as always. ..

 

[TheBrutalTruth]

When I sued I got $40,000... here our judgments aren't like yours..even my lawyer said if I was in the US the suit would have been for over 1,000,000.... if I got that"maybe" I'd have been willing to pay..there the suits are so blown out of proportion by the lawyers and if you don't think you all pay that you're wrong..thats socializing malpractice and injury torts....

I was polite and civil just voicing my opinion..... and you come back with that ass remark, you're a class act as always. ..

Strange, I'm not the one that was whining about how it's all about me, me, me. Why should I have to pay, why, why why?

You sound like an immature 12 year old. Go grow up.

 

[dontexist21]

Also if you think godlessness has nothing to do with the decay of society soon enough you may find out otherwise.

Again Why, can you give me a example.

 

[dontexist21]

You're a short-sighted buffoon aren't you.

Let's think about this...

My dental $9K over 4 months (I had some savings of my own that I was able to use)

Dental policy $30+ over the rest of my life, which will probably be measured at over 500 months. (40+ years)

That's $15K

The long term would be more expensive.

While the short term does force me to squeeze my budget a bit, I'd sooner do that then have the added stress of trying to deal with yet another bill.



It'd be even worse if the government got involved, because under government they'd probably insist that it was only $30/month for you, and then rape you (through your employer) for another $100/month for dental.

Short-sighted, and ignorant of real economics.

Go take a good hard look at your next paystub... maybe you'll see something new to you.

At least I hope so, your ignorance and short-sightedness is sickening, as is your advocation of enslaving others for your benefit.

Did not know I was a buffoon, thank you for telling. So I guess since your fine the rest of the country is also fine. Good to know. How does wanting everyone to have health care enslaving people for my own benefit. Tell me, I was trying to have a educated discussion, not resort to childish came calling. Tell me exactly YOU would fix the major problem that is consuming the country. At least I am trying to talk about a solution, if you could provide me with a alternative maybe then we could have a adult debate.

 

[CrackerJax]

When I sued I got $40,000... here our judgments aren't like yours..even my lawyer said if I was in the US the suit would have been for over 1,000,000.... if I got that"maybe" I'd have been willing to pay..there the suits are so blown out of proportion by the lawyers and if you don't think you all pay that you're wrong..thats socializing malpractice and injury torts....

I was polite and civil just voicing my opinion..... and you come back with that ass remark, you're a class act as always. ..

You made my point exactly...TY.

If the Govt. would just reign in the tort lawyers, our health care (private) would decrease in price dramatically. This is exactly what the AMA asked Obama to do...he said NO! I'm shocked.....

 

[Cap K]

Let's not get testy fellas, but I have to say I agree with brutal truth to a degree. Look this is the trick we are currently falling for. The goal is to see to it that privatized healthcare fails as it has been steadily. Then they push their government plan in the name of convenience and being more efficient and cost effective and needing to have more regulations put in place when they purposely saw to it that the regulations that were already in place would prove ineffective. Now once that sytem has all but broken down they get the people themselves to cry for a better system and they present to us...socialized healtcare.

We have just experienced this with the financial crisis. The Fed purposely did not regulate wall street they way it should have and when the bubble burst they say give us more power to regulate the banking system. It's a sick con and we fall for it every time! As we speak steps are being taken to give the Fed more power and what do we think they are going to do with this power?

 

[Twistyman]

Strange, I'm not the one that was whining about how it's all about me, me, me. Why should I have to pay, why, why why?

You sound like an immature 12 year old. Go grow up.

They say that a society will be judged by how they treat their less fortunate... I've gladly paid the extra $100. a month in taxes to help my fellow Canadians..to bad your neighbors can't expect that of you... and you call me selfish and greedy..... yet you'd squeal like a stuck pig if you had to pry open your wallet and actually help others....

 

[TheBrutalTruth]

One of the main reasons that we have a shortage of gen Dr. is because Medschool is so expensive, especially after going through undergrad. People want to get the most amount of money out of their education as fast as possible. Make education cheaper, get more doctors. I thought Obama said he would help in his speech, could be wrong, not like he can do anything. Its all up to congress. I have a belief that tort lawyers are a major part reason we don't have enough family dr.

More doctors = more people paying for medical care = lower cost

That's the idea behind National Insurance, isn't it.

Besides, ultimately more doctors would be a good thing.

Instead of worrying about insurance, people should be worrying about doctors.


Adding fuel to the doctor crisis | Macleans.ca - Science - Health - 5 Million Canadians don't have a family doctor - yep, sounds like Socialized Medicine fails again.


Why Is Canada Shutting Out Doctors?
Failure of bureaucracy

Solution To The Health Care Crisis in Canada
- a Canadian advocating more doctors (ties into the above)
- (also ties into my argument about needing more doctors here as well.)

Canada's Health Care 'Crisis' :: News :: thetyee.ca
Soaring expenses under socialism

http://www.fraserinstitute.org/commerce.web/product_files/FraserForum_June2009.pdf
- wait times of 17.3 weeks to see a specialist (an increase from 11.9 weeks in 1997, and 9.3 in 1993)

- long wait times for elective surgery

http://www.fraserinstitute.org/commerce.web/product_files/MortalityRatesCoronaryArteryBypass.pdf

- higher risk of fataility for heart surgery compared to the United States

http://www.fraserinstitute.org/commerce.web/product_files/MedicalTechnologyInventory.pdf

- A lagging inventory of medical technology



Canada, being our closest neighbor is a good example, but there are examples that could be pulled here from amongst the states that have tried Socialized Medicine. It doesn't work, because it does not force people to determine how much they value it, and as they can not place a value on it, they treat it like any other "free" commodity with irresponsible squandering of resources, and constant waste.

Socialized Medicine doesn't work, and will never work, as an effective way of limiting costs.

 

[TheBrutalTruth]

They say that a society will be judged by how they treat their less fortunate... I've gladly paid the extra $100. a month in taxes to help my fellow Canadians..to bad your neighbors can't expect that of you... and you call me selfish and greedy..... yet you'd squeal like a stuck pig if you had to pry open your wallet and actually help others....

Well, until I'm free to take care of myself, I can hardly be asked to take care of the less intelligent.

A person that is self-sufficient and not under assault from thieves is more likely to consider looking at their neighborhood and seeing how they can help them.

But until they are no longer being attacked by the thieves then they are not going to be inclined to help. This is even more true when their neighbors are the thieves they are trying to fend off. Socialism doesn't lead to more caring, it leads to less.

It doesn't build up society, it tears it down.

It doesn't build up humanity, it destroys it and morphs it into inhumanity.

 

[Cap K]

The main word we are all looking for here is control. The definition of the word as Larry Fishburne (Morpheus in The Matrix films.) used it. The ultimate goal is to control every aspect of our day to day lives. Socialized healthcare would be just one arm of the controlling socialist machine.

 

[TheBrutalTruth]

Did not know I was a buffoon, thank you for telling. So I guess since your fine the rest of the country is also fine. Good to know. How does wanting everyone to have health care enslaving people for my own benefit. Tell me, I was trying to have a educated discussion, not resort to childish came calling. Tell me exactly YOU would fix the major problem that is consuming the country. At least I am trying to talk about a solution, if you could provide me with a alternative maybe then we could have a adult debate.

Solution?

Get government out of medical care, cut pay roll taxes, let people learn how to help each other with out government trying to force it upon them. Isn't that what Socialists all want, for people to help each other?

It's kind of hard to be so inclined when the government reduces you to point of poverty at the point of a gun wielded by an ignorant electorate who demonstates their vampiristic parasitical tendencies by continuously expressing their desire to squeeze more blood and sweat out of the middle class.

Socialism is nothing more than slavery organized at a national, or state, level.

 

[CrackerJax]

They say that a society will be judged by how they treat their less fortunate... I've gladly paid the extra $100. a month in taxes to help my fellow Canadians..to bad your neighbors can't expect that of you... and you call me selfish and greedy..... yet you'd squeal like a stuck pig if you had to pry open your wallet and actually help others....

No country treats the downtrodden better than the US. We have a society in which anyone, and I do mean ANYONE can improve their lot through the free market system. It is up to the INDIVIDUAL to put in the effort though, as it SHOULD be.

Obama is a perfect example.... think that would happen in france or england?

 

[dontexist21]

Solution?

Get government out of medical care, cut pay roll taxes, let people learn how to help each other with out government trying to force it upon them. Isn't that what Socialists all want, for people to help each other?

It's kind of hard to be so inclined when the government reduces you to point of poverty at the point of a gun wielded by an ignorant electorate who demonstates their vampiristic parasitical tendencies by continuously expressing their desire to squeeze more blood and sweat out of the middle class.

Socialism is nothing more than slavery organized at a national, or state, level.

Lets agree to disagree, not like anyone can do anything about it anyway. I am tired, and I doubt my continuing this debate will be very productive. Even through I want people to help each other without government intervention, I have lost a lot of my faith in them, especially those that run certain corporations.

 

[Twistyman]

Nothings perfect.. and I can find 100 studies, articles...etc that say the opposite I'm sure....
Maybe even one or two that say your ilk are mouth breathing troglodytes..so post away with the studies..if its such a bad thing why are most countries in the world trying to achieve social medicine in some form... but hay.. a few rt wing people say its bad.. let them eat cake..IMO
It works for me our system in my 12 year old selfish greedy ass talking opinion...
so go pay your $12,000 per yr. ins. rates.
Oh ya.. they called from my hosp.today for my lung function test and polyp biopsy...
free free free free free...... transport paid.... pick my Dr. ..which hosp..what day.. time..................etc.. yep that sucks.
my god..its the end of civilization as we know it..according to his nibs....

have a nice evening BT...

 

[Cap K]

No country treats the downtrodden better than the US. We have a society in which anyone, and I do mean ANYONE can improve their lot through the free market system. It is up to the INDIVIDUAL to put in the effort though, as it SHOULD be.

Obama is a perfect example.... think that would happen in france or england?

it's all an illusion carefully constucted for you to think that, but in fact who do you think the erosion of the American dollar is going to affect first if not the downtrodden?

 

[TheBrutalTruth]

Nothings perfect.. and I can find 100 studies, articles...etc that say the opposite I'm sure....
Maybe even one or two that say your ilk are mouth breathing troglodytes..so post away with the studies..if its such a bad thing why are most countries in the world trying to achieve social medicine in some form... but hay.. a few rt wing people say its bad.. let them eat cake..IMO
It works for me our system in my 12 year old selfish greedy ass talking opinion...
so go pay your $12,000 per yr. ins. rates.
Oh ya.. they called from my hosp.today for my lung function test and polyp biopsy...
free free free free free...... transport paid.... pick my Dr. ..which hosp..what day.. time..................etc.. yep that sucks.
my god..its the end of civilization as we know it..according to his nibs....

have a nice evening BT...

And how much do you pay in taxes for it, or perhaps your friends? Or maybe other family members?

How do you justify enslaving your own family to yourself?

And if these purported studies of yours exist, then where are they.

I don't see proof of your statement, and seeing is believing.


But whatever,

it's not personal, it's politics, so I hope you have a nice night as well, even if our views are radically different from each other's.