Clone Conspiracy in California??!!

[mrblixa]

So if Clones do not degrade, are the growers intentionally selecting weaker phenotypes for the clones they sell to the clubs/dispensary.

 

[KaliKitsune]

The more I read the more confused I become. Is there a degeneration of quality ever when taking a clone from a clone. If you took a clone from a clone from a clone a million times would clone 1million be any different than the original female mother grown from a seed. If not, are the growers who are supplying the clubs intentionally selecting a crappy phenotype and cloning it and than selling it to the dispensary?

The simple high school biology answer is YES, there is degeneration of quality when you clone a clone.

Get a mother, clone it, then clone that clone, then clone the clone that comes off of it - I doubt you'll be able to keep it alive. DNA/RNA transcription in cloning is a big issue because there is no fresh genetic material when you clone a plant, you're reusing pre-existing DNA code already.

With use comes degradation. Once you get into S1 clones, you might as well breed that with fresh stock or else you're going to have hard times ahead when you go to take clones from an S1 plant.

 

[SpruceZeus]

The simple high school biology answer is YES, there is degeneration of quality when you clone a clone.

Get a mother, clone it, then clone that clone, then clone the clone that comes off of it - I doubt you'll be able to keep it alive. DNA/RNA transcription in cloning is a big issue because there is no fresh genetic material when you clone a plant, you're reusing pre-existing DNA code already.

With use comes degradation. Once you get into S1 clones, you might as well breed that with fresh stock or else you're going to have hard times ahead when you go to take clones from an S1 plant.

Perhaps on paper this is true, however i will refer you to my previous post in this thread.

I have to politely disagree. I have clones that are 6 generations from seed (about to be seven) and the plants grow exactly as the first set did more than a year ago.
And last i checked Uncle al b fuct had some sweettooth going for more than 2 years without degeneration.
What about clone only strains? most people that have these have clones of clones of clones of clones. Certainly i've never heard of any decline in the quality of UK cheese or trainwreck etc.
Perhaps you could back this up with some evidence?

 

[GrowTech]

I dunno, any time I pick up cllones they are fine, except for one time they had mites... YOU are the person that selects your clone, so not only do you get what you pay for, you get what you ask for. No conspiracy.

I know a lot of people who move clones, and bad clones is bad business for club, if youre getting shitty clones, tell the club.

 

[KaliKitsune]

Perhaps on paper this is true, however i will refer you to my previous post in this thread.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=Xn3&q=plant+clone+degeneration&btnG=Search

All the info you want on cellular cloning degeneration, from potatoes to soybeans to cannabis.

Some plants don't tolerate cloning as well as others. Mint doesn't seem to care nor any of its relatives. Cannabis seems to hate it right about after you get past F2/S1, and that's just from personal experience cloning the shit out of my plants.

 

[houstonblowskush]

subcool has kept some of the same strains around 7-8 years I believe and he hasn't kept a mother plant...read his clone thread in the organics section of the site...

 

[SpruceZeus]

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=Xn3&q=plant+clone+degeneration&btnG=Search

All the info you want on cellular cloning degeneration, from potatoes to soybeans to cannabis.

Some plants don't tolerate cloning as well as others. Mint doesn't seem to care nor any of its relatives. Cannabis seems to hate it right about after you get past F2/S1, and that's just from personal experience cloning the shit out of my plants.

I can't really argue the concept of degeneration, science says so. However, all i'm saying is that in 7 generations i havn't noticed any change in my plants.
Of course this could be me becoming more familliar with my plants and their likes and dislikes. Perhaps by treating them better i've offset any mutation or degeneration. But i'm still skeptical. I've heard stories of certain clone-lines being passed on for 10-15 years without any change in the makeup of the plants.
Again, i'm not argueing that it doesn't exist, only that perhaps in most cases its on such a small scale that its a non issue for almost every grower.


Or maybe i'm just too high and beating a dead horse.

 

[proheto8008]

To the OP....

Have you ever considered that maybe you just havnt been growing correctly?

Also to all the posters.

WHERE IS A GOOD SHOP TO GET CLONES IN METRO L.A.?

 

[sb101]

once in Marina Del Rey...first time growing i bought 3 strains...

one was pretty much mail (a blueberry that i was stoked was growing so fast...)

one were hermie (chocolate thai, didn't realize till everything was pollinated)

and one was fine (og diesel, still growin in, about to be on my 4th set of clones for it still seems to be doin just fine)



then i went to a place in K-Town that looked real shady but i picked up WW and Shiva and they've been growing real well...just wish i hadnt f*&%ed up my first crop going to such a shitty club...AND they had mites and were $20 a pop!


live and you learn..

 

[proheto8008]

Once again....

Can anyone tell me where the quality clubs are in metro l.a. to get good quality clones?

 

[laserbrn]

To the OP....

Have you ever considered that maybe you just havnt been growing correctly?

Also to all the posters.

WHERE IS A GOOD SHOP TO GET CLONES IN METRO L.A.?

Right now there is some bomb clones at CEO, my boy just dropped them off and you would love the plants that they will produce.

On another note, I have the same problem with clones and here's what's really happening.

Simple bastardization of the SoCal system. You get a clone that is called "Romulan" from the dispensary....you grow 10 and keep a mother. You sell your shit back to the dispensary as "Romulan" because that's what you bought it as, but at any point anyone can change it up and call it whatever they want.

It's a gross bastardization of the system. When you pick up OG clones in the SFV they are never real OG clones. I have 6 right now that are exactly the pheno you are talking about. They came from the dispensary and they produce well, but it's always the same damn thing with these things.


Check out my current grow log. But for example that pic from my avatar? That came from 4 clones I got from my boy NOT from the dispensary.

So this summer I'm spending the entire summer working on genetics. I've ordered up 6 strains and I'm going to get real clones of some good strains down to CEO over this coming summer.

Regardless, I too am frustrated without the crappy clones that you ened up spending so much time growing out....those days are done for me.

 

[Picasso345]

The simple high school biology answer is YES, there is degeneration of quality when you clone a clone.

Get a mother, clone it, then clone that clone, then clone the clone that comes off of it - I doubt you'll be able to keep it alive. DNA/RNA transcription in cloning is a big issue because there is no fresh genetic material when you clone a plant, you're reusing pre-existing DNA code already.

With use comes degradation. Once you get into S1 clones, you might as well breed that with fresh stock or else you're going to have hard times ahead when you go to take clones from an S1 plant.

Clone-only strains have been around for years - decades in fact. Just as good as ever. You can certainly introduce a mutation into a clone and it will degrade, but in the normal course of events a genetic copy is just that - an exact copy. This business of trying to equate cloning to making a copy of a copy and the quality decreasing just isn't true.

 

[laserbrn]

Clone-only strains have been around for years - decades in fact. Just as good as ever. You can certainly introduce a mutation into a clone and it will degrade, but in the normal course of events a genetic copy is just that - an exact copy. This business of trying to equate cloning to making a copy of a copy and the quality decreasing just isn't true.

Agreed...what he said just isn't true. I've had the same straing going over a long period without using mothers.

I have many times bought 10 or 12 clones from the dispensary, vegged them, taken clones from each at the beginning of flower and flowered them while I vegged the others, only to take clones before flower, etc. over and over without any degredation.

They certainly don't just "die". They aren't "photo" copies.

 

[Greyskull]

theres just a lot of bad clones being passed around right now....
there are some good ones around... but I have gone thru plenty of "elite" clones trying to find "the one for me"... and I get my clones directly from the clone vendors hand I don't mess with whats in the shops....


here's my take on some clones being passed around the "medical commuinty". this is by no means gospel, just my opinion. most of these plants are well revered on the boards. I have no idea why.... I didn't waste my time growing them (because I can tell you about them so the experience was worth it i guess?!) but I am not gonna grow them ever again....


sr71 purple kush - slow grower. medium yeild. great taste. lower potency than advertised at 63 days... not really midgrade but not quite top shelf either. don't see whats the big deal... not "all that"

ogkush(fire)xafghan kush - to much afghan not enough og... bland smoke. nothing too exciting. really good middle of the road plant. blahze at best...

g13xdiesel - grows nice. This plant looks bomb growing. Its like the best show in the room. Takes great pics. Yeilds above average. Smooth taste, but kinda peppery/spicy. hashy. almost bbq smoke hashy/ MAYBE THE G13 INFLUENCE??? Not bad but not something I will seek to smoke more of ever....

larry og kush - TMV-like traits (leaf curl & discoloration... spread to some other plants....)

hells angels og kush - TMV-like traits (leaf curl & discoloration... spread to some other plants....)

sac2 og kush - Passing this cut is not doing a damn thing for anyone except spreading bullshit plants to grow. I did my part and killed it...

sfv og kush - took over 3wks to root in ezcloner when other cuts are rooted and transplanted in 7... no time to wait for slow pokes to get their shoes on you know what I mean?

carmel kush - Passing this cut is not doing a damn thing for anyone except spreading bullshit plants to grow. I did my part and killed it...

blackberry bubba - really slow grower. really slow. low low low on the yeild pole. KILLER LOOKING BUDS THAT ARE CAKED WITH TRICHS. SMELLS GREAT IN JAR... just like blackberry jam. DISSAPPOINTING TASTE. High is okay nothing special. DOES NOT TASTE LIKE SHE SMELLS, OR I WOULD PUT UP WITH THE BULLSHIT YEILD. Looks lie a 10. Smells like a 9. Smokes like a 6....

ffa - may get this one again to be honest. grows with some lank to it (some branch between internodes). needs to be vegged properly to pull of some yeild (not for rooting and flowering)... smoke is top shelf. smells good. goes down smooth. tastes good. good lung expansion... may have to run 1 of them every crop just for personal smoke....

dabney blueberry (M39) - roots fast. looks nice while it grows. smells great growing. high is bland and middle of the road. not the worst, not the best... good bag appeal.

garberville purple kush - roots fast. veggs fast, though it looks lanky while vegging. very aggressive vegger. yeild is heavy. turns purple. smells great on the plant. smoke was big dissapointment. the only folks I can see liking this plant are commercial growers who don't smoke, or dudes that don;t mind putting out really good looking mid grade smoke.

purple kush (grows like bubba... maybe the LV?) - roots fast. veggs slow. actually i think she grows very similiarto the pre 98 bubba I have/keep. buds are dense. not as frosty as the bubba. not quite as good a high as the bubba. not quite as good a taste as the bubba. I PREFER THIS PURPLE KUSH OVER THE SR71 ANYDAY OF THE WEEK... if I didn't have the pre 98 bubba I would probably keep it... does turn purple

Apothecary 91 & Chem 91 - both plants did not like the way I was treating them (whihc is the same way I treat all my veging plants).... they had special needs that needed to be met in order to have them flourish (they need more cal/mag & N than the others I am keeping seem to need). If you cannot get in line, good bye...


good luck finding your keepers....

the only plants/clones that I have kept from the clone vendors are the ChemdogD & Arcata Trainwreck

btw the plants that I have had since before I started picking up clones from clone vendors (which has since stopped) have remained with me because they are superior (MTF, SDxSB, pre98 Bubba, Grape Romulan)

I passed the Grape Romulan to a few clone vendors in the "community" so if you know how to grow somewhat descent pot you;ll be very pleased with her as she yeild heavy loads of top shelf (4400lb) buds.

 

[KaliKitsune]

Clone-only strains have been around for years - decades in fact. Just as good as ever. You can certainly introduce a mutation into a clone and it will degrade, but in the normal course of events a genetic copy is just that - an exact copy. This business of trying to equate cloning to making a copy of a copy and the quality decreasing just isn't true.

Until your constantly cloned strain becomes so weak that a retrovirus can come along and wipe it totally out or revert any characteristics bred into the plant.

And yes, it has happened.

Organismal DNA cloning = Analog, you cannot get PERFECT analog copies. Every time DNA replicates either more junk is added or removed - it's never the same exactly.

This is why the human population cannot survive through just cloning alone - DNA degradation. After 30 generations or so that's it, you can't continue on without fresh DNA supply.

http://www.ornl.gov/sci/techresources/Human_Genome/elsi/cloning.shtml

And there's hard evidence. The same thing applies exactly to plants.

There are two types of cloning - organismal and molecular.

Organismal cloning has DNA degradation every generation - it may not become apparent until 10 or 15 generations down the line, but it's there.

Molecular cloning has no degradation and would be closer to the Digital version of DNA cloning - perfect copies can be made.

http://www.answers.com/topic/cloning-organisms

 

[mrblixa]

I dunno, any time I pick up cllones they are fine, except for one time they had mites... YOU are the person that selects your clone, so not only do you get what you pay for, you get what you ask for. No conspiracy.

I know a lot of people who move clones, and bad clones is bad business for club, if youre getting shitty clones, tell the club.

So Im the one hurting me ? you sound like a shrink lol. However its very possible. Its happened so many times though, and with so many different methods and grow mediums, that I eventually said seeds is the way to go. After that decision was made, I havent had a problem.

As for going to the club, I did. Each week I updated the assistant at the club, and each week he said that he has heard no complaints. I harvested it, cured it and brought it to them and told them to smoke it, and they wouldnt. Since then it has cured and does not taste so bad so its used as a filler in blunts.

there are still 4 clones left of purple bubba, 2 in 12/12 and 2 in 18/6. they as well are so very booty.

veg from seed at 2-3 weeks was stinkier than the flowering p bubba clones from the club.

I dont scrap them cuz im grinding grow xp, ltmq.

Any thing i grow out from seed is better than the multiple clones I have gotten over a few years. keep in mind , I surrendered that an OG kush once grown out , got on sunset was quality.

 

[laserbrn]

So Im the one hurting me ? you sound like a shrink lol. However its very possible. Its happened so many times though, and with so many different methods and grow mediums, that I eventually said seeds is the way to go. After that decision was made, I havent had a problem.

As for going to the club, I did. Each week I updated the assistant at the club, and each week he said that he has heard no complaints. I harvested it, cured it and brought it to them and told them to smoke it, and they wouldnt. Since then it has cured and does not taste so bad so its used as a filler in blunts.

there are still 4 clones left of purple bubba, 2 in 12/12 and 2 in 18/6. they as well are so very booty.

veg from seed at 2-3 weeks was stinkier than the flowering p bubba clones from the club.

I dont scrap them cuz im grinding grow xp, ltmq.

Any thing i grow out from seed is better than the multiple clones I have gotten over a few years. keep in mind , I surrendered that an OG kush once grown out , got on sunset was quality.

That's funny, I have 6 "OG Kush" plants right now and if you check out my current grow journal and look at my pics from the 13th...do they look like OG Kush to you or do they look like that same strain that always seems to be floating around?

 

[mrblixa]

That's funny, I have 6 "OG Kush" plants right now and if you check out my current grow journal and look at my pics from the 13th...do they look like OG Kush to you or do they look like that same strain that always seems to be floating around?

I cant smell from here, and how heavy and dense are the nugs? I have high hopes for the OG and I do want to try it again.

 

[laserbrn]

I cant smell from here, and how heavy and dense are the nugs? I have high hopes for the OG and I do want to try it again.

They are dense as hell right now. I haven't taken pictures in almost a week, but they are dense.

These buds aren't HUGE, but I'm looking at hopefully a good yeild out of them. They just don't look like any OG Kush I've ever seen, but then, they aren't done yet either so I guess we'll see.

 

[mrblixa]

I just finished growing the last of the clones i had acquired from the collectives in SFV. So Booty... My other grows (from seed)are phenomenal...