After Iraq ...

[trailer park guy]

Personally, I think if we left today, the same thing would happen that would of happened if we left two years ago or two years from now. The people of Iraq will fight it out and if we're lucky they'll have another secular leader like Saddam who will keep the religous nuts out of his country like before we got there.

We supported Saddam when it was in our interests and we'll work with another bad guy if it works to our advantage.

There are religous nuts of all ilks out there and there's not much we can really do about that problem. McVeigh wasn't a muslim, nor was the Atlanta bomber. They were just pissed off people with an ax to grind.
I believe every time we accidentally kill an innocent civilian, which we all know happens with alarming frequency, they have Brothers, Sisters, Mothers, Fathers, Sons, and Daughters, and they become pissed off people with a real ax to grind. That's what makes a terrorist.

We've put are Soldiers in a terrible position by not listening to the Generals that knew what was most likely to happen. They were forced aside and a more politcally motivated plan was put in to place. We raced to Baghdad leaving unguarded munitions and destruction in our wake.
Racing to make the "Mission Acomplished" speech before the next election.

People talk about Germany and Japan, but we didn't lose one soldier after the mission was concluded, but here we have a different situation. Yes, we were attacked, but not by Saddam, and not by the Iraqi Army. The conspiracy nuts want us to beleive that the Goverment was behind those attacks, and I think every right minded person knows this is not true. But they should also know they were looking for a reason to go into Iraq, there are many published books and articles to support this fact. They had a choice to go into this war, and like Rumsfeld said, you go with the Army you have, and they did, without the equipment or armor or vehicles to make them safe. But we see Halliburtons profits skyrocket. Why aren't these people sacrificing for the cause.

Sorry, got a little off the subject there. This is a very personal thing for me, having friends and family in the frey, but like I said earlier, we're just prolonging the ineveitable. And while brave Men and Women die, the smirking Commander and Chief use them for photo ops and to try and shame his dissenters.

 

[nowstopwhining]

"There are religous nuts of all ilks out there and there's not much we can really do about that problem. McVeigh wasn't a muslim, nor was the Atlanta bomber. They were just pissed off people with an ax to grind.
I believe every time we accidentally kill an innocent civilian, which we all know happens with alarming frequency, they have Brothers, Sisters, Mothers, Fathers, Sons, and Daughters, and they become pissed off people with a real ax to grind. That's what makes a terrorist."


I agree with that.

 

[ViRedd]

nowstopwhining sez:

"Oh and Vi you speak of us having control over OTHER countries like it is a good thing and we have the right to do so. Why is it our responsibility to police the world like we have been doing for so long, and what gives us the right."

I'll let you answer your own question; What happens if we don't?

Vi

 

[nowstopwhining]

nowstopwhining sez:

"Oh and Vi you speak of us having control over OTHER countries like it is a good thing and we have the right to do so. Why is it our responsibility to police the world like we have been doing for so long, and what gives us the right."

I'll let you answer your own question; What happens if we don't?

Vi

Personally I think its almost impossible to tell what everything would be like if we had never started policing the world. Maybe we would have never been attacked on our own soil, maybe we wouldnt be as powerful, maybe we would be even more powerful with better relations...maybe maybe maybe....Honestly I really dont know, but I do know that I am finally home from work and stoned off my ass.

 

[ViRedd]

Personally I think its almost impossible to tell what everything would be like if we had never started policing the world. Maybe we would have never been attacked on our own soil, maybe we wouldnt be as powerful, maybe we would be even more powerful with better relations...maybe maybe maybe....Honestly I really dont know, but I do know that I am finally home from work and stoned off my ass.

*lol* ... I'm leaving work in a few minutes and I'll be stoned with ya.

I don't know the answers either. I DO know that 3000 of our citizens were killed on 9-11 and TRILLIONS of dollars of private assets were destroyed as well. I do not believe that we declared war on Islamofascists ... I believe they declared war on us. I'm an American from the old school ... we don't run from those who attack us. As the Japanese, Germans (and Mexicans for that matter) have discovered, we attack back ... then convert them to our way of life. After that, they become peaceful and don't fuck with us anymore.

Vi

 

[krime13]

anyway, i'd still like an answer to my post Vi. what do you see us gaining if we stay, what do we lose if we leave?

Staying, we gain a solid foothold in the Middle East. That would mean (eventually) a stable Middle East and that is in our, and our allies best interests. Like it or not, the world runs on oil. The thought of terrorist countries controlling the oil is not a pleasant one. Leaving, we again become the Paper Tiger. A true super power without the will to win. Yes, I realize that staying is not the perfect situation but the the alternative seems to be the mistaken path to me.

Vi

So you do aggree with me, we are there to steal the oil that is on THEYR land.

 

[krime13]

Hey, I'd like to see ALL of our troops come home. By that I mean not only from the Middle East, but from all across the Globe. In today's world, I don't believe that's the smart thing to do. Think about it for a moment. If we remove our bases from S. Korea, would it empower N. Korea? With the Soviet Union starting to rattle sabers again, should we pull our troops out of Europe and close our bases there as well? And then there's the Middle East. If we pull out, who will move in? Think hard about that and the ramifications it would have.

We are in the Middle East ... and especially Iraq for the long haul. The Republicans know that. The Democrats know that too. All of their talk about pulling out is nothing more than blowing political smoke. We are building a HUGE airbase 40 miles from Baghdad. We are building a HUGE embassy in Iraq as well. Learn to live with it ... we are in the Middle East to stay for generations to come.

As much as we don't like the idea, the economies of the producing countries run on oil. A stable oil supply is paramount in keeping those economies running. We are NOT in Iraq to "steal" the oil ... we are there to maintain a stable supply, not just for us, but for all of our trading partners as well. Why us? ... because we can.

Vi

Have you got no concience? How would you feel if I walked in to your grow room killed your dogs, put a gun to your head and said "I am not here to steal your pot, merelly to mantain a steady supply of it to me and my friends , heres $5...

 

[krime13]

Personally, I think if we left today, the same thing would happen that would of happened if we left two years ago or two years from now. The people of Iraq will fight it out and if we're lucky they'll have another secular leader like Saddam who will keep the religous nuts out of his country like before we got there.

We supported Saddam when it was in our interests and we'll work with another bad guy if it works to our advantage.

There are religous nuts of all ilks out there and there's not much we can really do about that problem. McVeigh wasn't a muslim, nor was the Atlanta bomber. They were just pissed off people with an ax to grind.
I believe every time we accidentally kill an innocent civilian, which we all know happens with alarming frequency, they have Brothers, Sisters, Mothers, Fathers, Sons, and Daughters, and they become pissed off people with a real ax to grind. That's what makes a terrorist.

We've put are Soldiers in a terrible position by not listening to the Generals that knew what was most likely to happen. They were forced aside and a more politcally motivated plan was put in to place. We raced to Baghdad leaving unguarded munitions and destruction in our wake.
Racing to make the "Mission Acomplished" speech before the next election.

People talk about Germany and Japan, but we didn't lose one soldier after the mission was concluded, but here we have a different situation. Yes, we were attacked, but not by Saddam, and not by the Iraqi Army. The conspiracy nuts want us to beleive that the Goverment was behind those attacks, and I think every right minded person knows this is not true. But they should also know they were looking for a reason to go into Iraq, there are many published books and articles to support this fact. They had a choice to go into this war, and like Rumsfeld said, you go with the Army you have, and they did, without the equipment or armor or vehicles to make them safe. But we see Halliburtons profits skyrocket. Why aren't these people sacrificing for the cause.

Sorry, got a little off the subject there. This is a very personal thing for me, having friends and family in the frey, but like I said earlier, we're just prolonging the ineveitable. And while brave Men and Women die, the smirking Commander and Chief use them for photo ops and to try and shame his dissenters.

By far the best post in this thread...

 

[krime13]

nowstopwhining sez:

"Oh and Vi you speak of us having control over OTHER countries like it is a good thing and we have the right to do so. Why is it our responsibility to police the world like we have been doing for so long, and what gives us the right."

I'll let you answer your own question; What happens if we don't?

Vi

Oh I dont know, maybe we will be more like Sweden, Finland,Holland, Belgium,or even Canada, you know, normal countries.

 

[nowstopwhining]

Oh I dont know, maybe we will be more like Sweden, Finland,Holland, Belgium,or even Canada, you know, normal countries.

Thats what I was getting at...I was just too stoned hahaha

 

[clekstro]

*lol* ... I'm leaving work in a few minutes and I'll be stoned with ya.

I don't know the answers either. I DO know that 3000 of our citizens were killed on 9-11 and TRILLIONS of dollars of private assets were destroyed as well. I do not believe that we declared war on Islamofascists ... I believe they declared war on us. I'm an American from the old school ... we don't run from those who attack us. As the Japanese, Germans (and Mexicans for that matter) have discovered, we attack back ... then convert them to our way of life. After that, they become peaceful and don't fuck with us anymore.

Vi

Americans from the old days, Vi, do not have to support neocon talking points to retain their intrinsic conservativism; you all seem to have gotten lost in a television vacuum of relative fact and unconfirmable history.
Wake up: the old school thinking is being abused here... You believe they declared war out of purely religious fanaticism? Not political desperation or as blowback designed to punish the US and promote its own power in the region? And, most certainly not as a direct result of unwanted american intervention and presence in the region? You believe in shutting your eyes, buying into the rhetoric, and drumming the fold back to the shepherd to the beat of the memo; you talk about striking back without ever bothering to engage the indecent question of whether or not we struck first. by the way, that column was officially propaganda. poor taste.

Those who say that the Iraq war has nothing to do with the war on terror seem not to notice that the terrorists themselves obviously think otherwise.
Terrorists recognize the high stakes in the outcome of this war, even if growing numbers of people over here refuse to.

does that mean that i am incapable of discerning a difference between necessary and unnecessary wars unless I am a fanatic? And that my opinion matters less to my government than the people it is allegedly trying to kill? And that the terrorists whose existence is said to be repugnant of mankind are therefore more logical in framing the parameters of interpretation surrounding this war than mere non-fanatics? "Conservatives" are playing you hard, Vi. Real hard.

 

[medicineman]

*lol* ... I'm leaving work in a few minutes and I'll be stoned with ya.

I don't know the answers either. I DO know that 3000 of our citizens were killed on 9-11 and TRILLIONS of dollars of private assets were destroyed as well. I do not believe that we declared war on Islamofascists ... I believe they declared war on us. I'm an American from the old school ... we don't run from those who attack us. As the Japanese, Germans (and Mexicans for that matter) have discovered, we attack back ... then convert them to our way of life. After that, they become peaceful and don't fuck with us anymore.

Vi

Whats that about the Mexicans? They're winning, and haven't fired a shot.

 

[7xstall]

Hey, I'd like to see ALL of our troops come home. By that I mean not only from the Middle East, but from all across the Globe. In today's world, I don't believe that's the smart thing to do. Think about it for a moment. If we remove our bases from S. Korea, would it empower N. Korea? With the Soviet Union starting to rattle sabers again, should we pull our troops out of Europe and close our bases there as well? And then there's the Middle East. If we pull out, who will move in? Think hard about that and the ramifications it would have.

We are in the Middle East ... and especially Iraq for the long haul. The Republicans know that. The Democrats know that too. All of their talk about pulling out is nothing more than blowing political smoke. We are building a HUGE airbase 40 miles from Baghdad. We are building a HUGE embassy in Iraq as well. Learn to live with it ... we are in the Middle East to stay for generations to come.

As much as we don't like the idea, the economies of the producing countries run on oil. A stable oil supply is paramount in keeping those economies running. We are NOT in Iraq to "steal" the oil ... we are there to maintain a stable supply, not just for us, but for all of our trading partners as well. Why us? ... because we can.

Vi

we don't need to manage the planet with our military presence. that is actually a sign of weakness. the fact that we are there signals that 1. we don't honor the adversary's word when they say attacks are off the table. 2. we need a physical presence to remind them of our capability and threaten them.

this is backward!

they need to know we mean serious business. token bases and various deployments around the globe are child's play. we wield the capacity to deliver a devastating military strike anywhere on the planet within hours, if we setup shop and stay we're just babysitters. truth is, we need our people out of the way so if it gets out of hand we can throw caution to the wind (no friendly fire, etc..), now that makes a statement that's hard to misunderstand! the military should revolt and desert this failed misuse of our men and women in uniform. if they're overseas it should be for one of three things: a war, a temporary visit or cultural training.

9/11 was planned and developed in Afg. and it was 100% right to go in there and kill a shit load of people, should have killed more, but it needed to start and stop there with a focus so intense and so outright destructive that extremists would shudder to think of carrying out these kinds of missions in the future. this pansy warfare we have been so fond of is useless. war is killing, it's brutal, messy, painful and we need to get some generals who don't give a damn about politics, public opinion or anything other than putting enemies in the ground - en masse.

what did we do? we got in a few scuffles, dropped some new bombs, let the #1 guy get away, rebuild/subsidize the opium market, and then we go start a cat hearding mission in a place that's surrounded on ALL sides by extremist harboring states and an accessible, porous border!

over the last half century we have been very unwise in using our military, more folly prone than even Rome was.

the supply of oil in the ME will stabilize itself, those people who live there depend on it for their lives just as we depend on it to accommodate our lifestyle. they will fix their own problems but if we keep trying to impose our will on them 9/11 will be just a bump in the road compared to what's coming.






.

 

[ViRedd]

7x sez ...

"truth is, we need our people out of the way so if it gets out of hand we can throw caution to the wind (no friendly fire, etc..), now that makes a statement that's hard to misunderstand!"

And THAT'S exactly what I meant by "Old School." Couldn't agree more.

Vi

 

[Dankdude]

No the case isn't closed at all, Dank. I think its interesting how you and I see things so much differently. You want to bring freedomus into this? If I remember, both of you were Mods in the political forum at CW ... and both of you were removed as mods because neither of you could refrain from personal attacks. After you and freedomus were removed, and even before you guys were removed, I continually had to edit your posts to get the personal attacks out of them. As far as I know, I had the reputation at CW for fair dealings. And, for your info, Dank, even though I was a Mod, I was entitled to my own opinion ... even though you didn't agree with them.

Now we can close the case.

Vi

Bullshit Vi, you know it and I know it... I was never a mod in that forum.
Freedomus asked to be removed from that forum... (get your facts strait Vi) and you kept wining because we requested over and over that you do your JOB. You alienated 2/3 of the forum. I stuck up for you and your forum when they wanted to shit can it. All that I asked was that you DO YOUR JOB and use some kid gloves toward fellow members. If you like it or not Vi Not all people are right or left wingers but are just as passionate about their political belief. It was not your JOB as A MOD to tell those members where they were wrong (in your opinion). The Personal attacks only started AFTER you REFUSED to do your JOB. Admit you didn't do a good job with the forum and I will let sleeping dogs lay.

 

[ViRedd]

Dank ...

Let's declare an impasse on this one. I totally disagree with you on what happend at CW and you totally disagree with me. Let's leave it at that and remain friends, OK? Truce??

Vi