After Iraq ...

ViRedd

New Member
After Iraq

By Thomas Sowell

Tuesday, July 17, 2007


"And then what?" That is the question which should be asked of those who are demanding that we pull out of Iraq now.

No candid answer should be expected from cynical politicians like Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, who have their bets riding big time on an American defeat in Iraq, as their ticket to winning the 2008 elections.
But that question should be answered by those who honestly and sincerely think that a troop pullout is the answer to the Iraq problem. What do they think will happen if we do?

That question is studiously avoided by those in politics and the media who urge pulling out.

Those who deal in talking points may believe, or claim to believe, that there will be no further repercussions. But those who have to confront the real world know that pulling out now is a formula for a bigger disaster than anything that has already happened in Iraq.

Should American troops stay in Iraq indefinitely?

Nobody has ever wanted that. Our whole history shows that American troops have repeatedly pulled out of countries around the world when wars ended and enough order was restored to turn the country over to its own people.

The political conflict today is between people who think that pulling out should depend on conditions in Iraq, as those conditions unfold, rather than on arbitrary timetables created by politicians with no military experience, and with a time horizon that extends no further than the 2008 elections.

Those who say that the Iraq war has nothing to do with the war on terror seem not to notice that the terrorists themselves obviously think otherwise.
Terrorists are pouring men and military equipment into Iraq, with the help of Iran, and using suicide bombers there for some reason.

Terrorists recognize the high stakes in the outcome of this war, even if growing numbers of people over here refuse to.

To drive the United States out of Iraq would be a huge victory for the terrorists, attracting both recruits and support from around the world, and causing countries around the world to reconsider their ties to the United States.

International cooperation is essential to thwarting and disrupting terrorist activities, through such things as intelligence sharing among nations and clampdowns on the international money flows that finance terrorist activities.

But how many countries will continue to cooperate with the United States when they know that the terrorists are in this for the long haul, while the U.S. can abandon them to their fate at any moment, whenever it becomes politically expedient at home?

Terrorist or Iranian control of Iraq would give them enormous leverage with other countries in the Middle East, putting control of the oil that is the lifeblood of Western economies in the hands of implacable and ruthless enemies.

With more resources to finance more international terrorism, does anyone think the terrorists will spare the United States?

Much has been made of how long we have already stayed in Iraq, the casualties, and the mistakes that have been made. But both deaths and mistakes have always been inseparable from war.

As for how long we have been in Iraq, the cost of a war is not measured in time. It is measured in lives lost.

While our media are impatiently waiting for the 4,000th American death in Iraq that they can trumpet, and rub our noses in -- in the name of "honoring the troops" -- we need to understand that casualty rates in Iraq are low, as wars go.

If and when that 4,000th American death in Iraq is reached, we need to recall that more Marines than that were lost taking one island in the Pacific during World War II.

During the Civil War, more than twice as many Union soldiers as that were killed -- in one day -- at the battle of Shiloh, and again at Gettysburg.

The "war on terror" is a misleading phrase. It is the terrorists' war against us -- and it is not something that we can unilaterally call off. Our only choice is where to fight it, over there or over here.

Thomas Sowell is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institute and author of Basic Economics: A Citizen's Guide to the Economy.
 

7xstall

Well-Known Member
when asked, i laid out quite exhaustively what i believe would happen if we pull out. what do you think will happen if we pull out? what if we don't?




.
 

el_maco

Well-Known Member
if usasians leave i think irak would go into a civil war, but i dont think it would be that bad, with your soldiers there is still the most dangerous place on earth
 

krime13

Well-Known Member
All right I'll try to take it in one point at a time:1)It is a fact that US army installations that are beeng built right now in Iraq are built to support permanent military presence, hence while there is still oil in the ground, no one is leaving.2)Iraq was never a terrorist safe heaven, till we envaded it and failed to preserve its military, or security of its borders, I personally hold current administration responsible for making Iraq what it is today.3)To pull out now will force civilian Iraqi population to take up arms and resist Iranian influence, after all who whants to share theyr oil wealth? It will also appease international community and if things get worse, international peace keeping force could be deployed, it could be made up of middle eastern forcess and wont face such resistance from general population.4) Why is the author of this article is claiming the oil that belongs to Iraqi people? Instead of trying to hold on to that oil source, the current administretion should have invested in alternative energy research, but that would make too much sence...5)The troops that come home can be redeployed to protect our insecure borders, ports and airports, also more money can be spent on researching and destroing terrorist infrastructure instead of fighting the lower escelon foot soldiers in an unvinible guerilla war, its like fighting the simptom and ignoring the virus.6) Yes the # of the dead is low , but of wounded and personally desabled is almost quadrippled, theese are the people we have an obligation to take care of for the next 50+ years, further inflating the $ price of this war.Unlike the author, I measure the price of war in taxpeers $$$.7) Dont you think we have a way better chance vining this war on our own soil? Especially if we will have all the troops and money freed up?8) And finally, in my opinion this war is not gona be won by massive millitary action , but by infiltration and small precize strikes by the CIA and FBI, the terrorist infrastructure is very similar to mafia infrastructure and we have effective ways of tracking and destroing it.
 

medicineman

New Member
Nobody has ever wanted that. Our whole history shows that American troops have repeatedly pulled out of countries around the world when wars ended and enough order was restored to turn the country over to its own people.
Like Korea, Japan and Germany I suppose. We are still there 60 odd years after cessation of war. Do you see us in Iraq 50 years from now? According to the Bases and the Embassy being built, it looks credible.
 

atavistic

Well-Known Member
Most muslim/arab governments are in power because they hold a big stick over their population. You don't vote out many muslim/arab leaders - they get carried out. The US gets cooperation from these guys in part because they are scared of US. If/when we lose Iraq, they will fear us a lot less. Is Mussharef going to risk his ass any more in Pakistan if he thinks America will let him twist in the wind? He's too scared now to let Rangers have free roam in NW Pakistan to find the Evil Doer.

There aren't easy answers. If everyone will recall, after 9/11 the call was why didn't the US do more over there before these guys got here. This battle isn't East/West, it's a Muslim Civil war with Westerners as casualties. When we leave, and I think we will and maybe we should, the war goes on and moves to the 'moderate' Arab countries. And Afghanistan is backtracking - they'll be back to executing women in the soccer stadiums by the end of the decade.
 

krime13

Well-Known Member
Hey Vi Redd, if you are not gonna discuss the articles you post than what is the point? Oh, I understand, just doing your part in the corporate propaganda machine, I understand, do they pay you?
 

Gygax1974

Just some idiot
Nobody has ever wanted that. Our whole history shows that American troops have repeatedly pulled out of countries around the world when wars ended and enough order was restored to turn the country over to its own people.
Like Korea, Japan and Germany I suppose. We are still there 60 odd years after cessation of war. Do you see us in Iraq 50 years from now? According to the Bases and the Embassy being built, it looks credible.
We've been in Saudi Arabia forever...this is a major reason for Bin Laden getting so pissed at the US to begin with.
 

krime13

Well-Known Member
Hey VI this is your last chance , my points were above for almost a week and still no answer from you, what up?
 

ViRedd

New Member
All right I'll try to take it in one point at a time:1)It is a fact that US army installations that are beeng built right now in Iraq are built to support permanent military presence, hence while there is still oil in the ground, no one is leaving.2)Iraq was never a terrorist safe heaven, till we envaded it and failed to preserve its military, or security of its borders, I personally hold current administration responsible for making Iraq what it is today.3)To pull out now will force civilian Iraqi population to take up arms and resist Iranian influence, after all who whants to share theyr oil wealth? It will also appease international community and if things get worse, international peace keeping force could be deployed, it could be made up of middle eastern forcess and wont face such resistance from general population.4) Why is the author of this article is claiming the oil that belongs to Iraqi people? Instead of trying to hold on to that oil source, the current administretion should have invested in alternative energy research, but that would make too much sence...5)The troops that come home can be redeployed to protect our insecure borders, ports and airports, also more money can be spent on researching and destroing terrorist infrastructure instead of fighting the lower escelon foot soldiers in an unvinible guerilla war, its like fighting the simptom and ignoring the virus.6) :mrgreen: 7) Dont you think we have a way better chance vining this war on our own soil? Especially if we will have all the troops and money freed up?8) And finally, in my opinion this war is not gona be won by massive millitary action , but by infiltration and small precize strikes by the CIA and FBI, the terrorist infrastructure is very similar to mafia infrastructure and we have effective ways of tracking and destroing it.[/quote]

1. After war was over with Germany, Japan, Korea, etc. we installed permanent troop facilities there. Was that about oil?

2. Saddam had al-Queida training camps in Iraq prior to our attack of Iraq.

3. To pull out now, we would be unleashing a vast genocide upon the people of Iraq. After 9-11, there really aren't a whole lot of Americans who give a shit about "appeasing the international community."

4. Uhhh ... because the oil DOES belong to the Iraqi people?

5. We have a border patrol to protect the borders. Just build the damned fence as Congress has funded the money for and the border will be secured. We have the Coast Guard and Customs to protect our ports.

7. Who the fuck wants to win the war on our own soil? WTF man ... let's kill the bastards in THEIR neck of the woods. Also, its nice to know that you are a military expert. Personally, I'll rely on our generals and the troops on the ground in Iraq to lead the way.

Vi
 

krime13

Well-Known Member
1) After we councured, not liberated, Japan and Germany we set up bases to keep comunism in check, but use them till this day as the stepping stones for our opperations in MidEast, its like a worldwide feudal sistem.2) Plain lie! Saddam and AlQueada were never sharing a bed, matter of fact, douring the invasion of Kuvait Osama offered to oust Saddam with his army of mujahaddin and the talliban , but saudis never went for it.In the eyes of AlQueada Saddam was an infadel with the rest of us.3)Just a theory, on the other hand it myght give them a will to fight,after all, desperate people are the best fighters. &quot;Upon entering the killing ground , burn the bridges behind you and make it clear to your troops there is nowhere to retreat to, they will be victourious&quot; SunTzu The art of war.4) In the article it is said that if Iran will get the control of the oil it might have dire consecuanses for the US, there for it is implied that the Us should keep that control, obviously the author does not belive that Iraqis are capable to protect or manage theyr own oil wealth.5)It is a known fact that nether the coast guard or the border patroll have enough manpower to keep this country safe, in fact even the current administration stated that we are not any safer after 911.6) What happened to 6 Vi?7) If so, be it your choice, PERSONALLY, I belive its my duty to question the leaders that are not fullfiling theyr obligations to the american people, but that is just me. I will be expecting a response to this Vi, peace, Krime13.</p>
 

medicineman

New Member
All right I'll try to take it in one point at a time:1)It is a fact that US army installations that are beeng built right now in Iraq are built to support permanent military presence, hence while there is still oil in the ground, no one is leaving.2)Iraq was never a terrorist safe heaven, till we envaded it and failed to preserve its military, or security of its borders, I personally hold current administration responsible for making Iraq what it is today.3)To pull out now will force civilian Iraqi population to take up arms and resist Iranian influence, after all who whants to share theyr oil wealth? It will also appease international community and if things get worse, international peace keeping force could be deployed, it could be made up of middle eastern forcess and wont face such resistance from general population.4) Why is the author of this article is claiming the oil that belongs to Iraqi people? Instead of trying to hold on to that oil source, the current administretion should have invested in alternative energy research, but that would make too much sence...5)The troops that come home can be redeployed to protect our insecure borders, ports and airports, also more money can be spent on researching and destroing terrorist infrastructure instead of fighting the lower escelon foot soldiers in an unvinible guerilla war, its like fighting the simptom and ignoring the virus.6) :mrgreen: 7) Dont you think we have a way better chance vining this war on our own soil? Especially if we will have all the troops and money freed up?8) And finally, in my opinion this war is not gona be won by massive millitary action , but by infiltration and small precize strikes by the CIA and FBI, the terrorist infrastructure is very similar to mafia infrastructure and we have effective ways of tracking and destroing it.[/quote]

1. After war was over with Germany, Japan, Korea, etc. we installed permanent troop facilities there. Was that about oil?

2. Saddam had al-Queida training camps in Iraq prior to our attack of Iraq.

3. To pull out now, we would be unleashing a vast genocide upon the people of Iraq. After 9-11, there really aren't a whole lot of Americans who give a shit about "appeasing the international community."

4. Uhhh ... because the oil DOES belong to the Iraqi people?

5. We have a border patrol to protect the borders. Just build the damned fence as Congress has funded the money for and the border will be secured. We have the Coast Guard and Customs to protect our ports.

7. Who the fuck wants to win the war on our own soil? WTF man ... let's kill the bastards in THEIR neck of the woods. Also, its nice to know that you are a military expert. Personally, I'll rely on our generals and the troops on the ground in Iraq to lead the way.

Vi
Come on VI, stop with the Bush talking points and realize that this war is lost already and the best thing we can do is bring our troops home now and curtail the mayhem. I'll bet if you were 20 and a draft were imminent, you'd sure be willing to let Iraq solve its own problems
 

ViRedd

New Member
Hey Krime ...

You may be "expecting a response" from me, but one won't be forthcoming until you learn to use paragraphs. Hey, I'm an old guy and your posts are making me go blind, fer cryin' out loud! *lol*

Vi
 

krime13

Well-Known Member
Vi, I've tried but for some reason none of the control buttons work, would appreciate any advice on this problem, so since I cant fix it try to answer it anyway. PS in the future I'll just break it up into diferent posts.
 

hempie

New Member
Nobody has ever wanted that. Our whole history shows that American troops have repeatedly pulled out of countries around the world when wars ended and enough order was restored to turn the country over to its own people.
Like Korea, Japan and Germany I suppose. We are still there 60 odd years after cessation of war. Do you see us in Iraq 50 years from now? According to the Bases and the Embassy being built, it looks credible.
the korean war has never ended just in a cease fire.if our troops werent there the south would be invaded again. both the japanese and germans want us there. but according to your logic i guess we invaded the uk also since we have bases there
 

hempie

New Member
Come on VI, stop with the Bush talking points and realize that this war is lost already and the best thing we can do is bring our troops home now and curtail the mayhem. I'll bet if you were 20 and a draft were imminent, you'd sure be willing to let Iraq solve its own problems
leave it up to quitters and whiners to admit defeat before ever attempting to follow through with anything
 

Plato Is Boring

Well-Known Member
What we have about 20,000 troops in S. Korea at the moment? Meanwhile, the North has some 1.4/1.5 million troops? The North could have a reunited Korea if they really wanted it.
 

shamegame

Well-Known Member
All right I'll try to take it in one point at a time:1)It is a fact that US army installations that are beeng built right now in Iraq are built to support permanent military presence, hence while there is still oil in the ground, no one is leaving.2)Iraq was never a terrorist safe heaven, till we envaded it and failed to preserve its military, or security of its borders, I personally hold current administration responsible for making Iraq what it is today.3)To pull out now will force civilian Iraqi population to take up arms and resist Iranian influence, after all who whants to share theyr oil wealth? It will also appease international community and if things get worse, international peace keeping force could be deployed, it could be made up of middle eastern forcess and wont face such resistance from general population.4) Why is the author of this article is claiming the oil that belongs to Iraqi people? Instead of trying to hold on to that oil source, the current administretion should have invested in alternative energy research, but that would make too much sence...5)The troops that come home can be redeployed to protect our insecure borders, ports and airports, also more money can be spent on researching and destroing terrorist infrastructure instead of fighting the lower escelon foot soldiers in an unvinible guerilla war, its like fighting the simptom and ignoring the virus.6) Yes the # of the dead is low , but of wounded and personally desabled is almost quadrippled, theese are the people we have an obligation to take care of for the next 50+ years, further inflating the $ price of this war.Unlike the author, I measure the price of war in taxpeers $$$.7) Dont you think we have a way better chance vining this war on our own soil? Especially if we will have all the troops and money freed up?8) And finally, in my opinion this war is not gona be won by massive millitary action , but by infiltration and small precize strikes by the CIA and FBI, the terrorist infrastructure is very similar to mafia infrastructure and we have effective ways of tracking and destroing it.
Agreed. We made this mess.We turned an isolated nation into a breeding ground for the terrorists of the world.Iraq will crumble and fall into civil war the day we leave.DO you want that day to be in 4 months or in 4 years.Regardless, it WILL crumble and erode into the savage hotbed of violence that it is.Either way, we will continue to march our troops around the globe in the name of the " War on Terror "...If any of you know who Wesley Clarke is, he has stated on news programs that our government already has a " Seven Nation Plan " to invade and install friendly governments in 7 middle eastern countries.He alsos stated Iraq was not SUPPOSSED to be first on that list.But you see the obvious relationship between Saddam Hussein ( sp) Bush Sr., and GWB..He basically got revenge on the man that tried to kill his daddy..
 
Top