Strange (But Serious) Question

[pinkus]

The point of burying the fish with the corn was to amend the soil for the future, back when soil was taken care of instead of raped until it is no longer productive. Taking care of the land is a lesson my ancestors did not quiet grasp.

don't think so. the pilgrims starved the first year because the crops failed and didn't yield enough to sustain the community. Squanto took pity and saved their asses.

My ansestors are from both sides of the table.

Peace ya'll.

 

[ISmokePotBecauseItsCool]

don't think so. the pilgrims starved the first year because the crops failed and didn't yield enough to sustain the community. Squanto took pity and saved their asses.

My ansestors are from both sides of the table.

Peace ya'll.

Actually yeah, the point of the fish was to keep the soil continually fertile from year to year, not as a quick release fertilizer
And yes the Indians taught them that little trick according to history books, but evolution is also somehow a fact according to science books so that shows what you get for believing what you read

 

[Hayduke]

don't think so. the pilgrims starved the first year because the crops failed and didn't yield enough to sustain the community. Squanto took pity and saved their asses.

My ansestors are from both sides of the table.

Peace ya'll.

You may be right. And yes squanto saved their asses. But I can't see native people being as short sighted as quick fixes. Yes the fish would give some immediate help to the current crop, but the real benefit would be the composting organic material added every year. Squanto was teaching how to survive not just how to make it through to the spring to watch them starve the next year.

And my ancestors got the hell out of crazy Mass. in 1636 and went to Conn.

 

[Hayduke]

but evolution is also somehow a fact according to science books so that shows what you get for believing what you read

OHH no you didn't just poke the Bear/Scientist with the evil-lution stick

Yes history books are written with an agenda, but Science is not ruled by archaic beliefs and fear of the unknown. It merely is what it is! Change is the one constant on this planet and it take place over geologic not biblical time. Scientists do not claim that the Theory of evolution and Natural Selection (Darwin's real work) are the end all...That is why it is not a Law yet (like gravity) It is just what the science tells us. Until new data is gathered (using the scientific method) this is the best we have to go on. How do you think we got Cannabinoid receptors in our brains? Exposure to a stimulus and change over time!

I know its Sunday and I will for my Blasphemy...That is why we left Dorchester, Mass after 6 years!
now I gotta smoke....apologies to any offended!

 

[pinkus]

Actually yeah, the point of the fish was to keep the soil continually fertile from year to year, not as a quick release fertilizer
And yes the Indians taught them that little trick according to history books, but evolution is also somehow a fact according to science books so that shows what you get for believing what you read

Tisquantum finally settled with the Pilgrims at the site of his former village and helped them recover from their first difficult winter by teaching them to increase their food production by fertilizing their crops-from wikipedia

The fish couldn't have been only to replenish the soil if they failed to produce enough crops the first year

Look ya'll i'mnot about to use fish corpses in my garden. Using fish does have a LONG history. Nothing has changed in nature that would prevent it still working. Would it introduce other worse problems than it solves. Very possibly. Maybe even probably. There is just too much of a human history of usage to say it doesn't work.

i'm going to take a big pull off this joint which I assure you was NOT fertilized with rotting fish.

 

[ISmokePotBecauseItsCool]

OHH no you didn't just poke the Bear/Scientist with the evil-lution stick

Yes history books are written with an agenda, but Science is not ruled by archaic beliefs and fear of the unknown. It merely is what it is! Change is the one constant on this planet and it take place over geologic not biblical time. Scientists do not claim that the Theory of evolution and Natural Selection (Darwin's real work) are the end all...That is why it is not a Law yet (like gravity) It is just what the science tells us. Until new data is gathered (using the scientific method) this is the best we have to go on. How do you think we got Cannabinoid receptors in our brains? Exposure to a stimulus and change over time!

I know its Sunday and I will for my Blasphemy...That is why we left Dorchester, Mass after 6 years!
now I gotta smoke....apologies to any offended!

Dont group me with the mindless christians and there creation theory
I am simply stating that Evolution is just another theory, the same as Creationism or whatever your personal beliefs may be about how we all came to exist, but that it is regardless taught as proven fact and accepted as such by those with soft enough minds to be molded by the misguided educational system
Basically dont believe what you read, especially when it comes to history, as it is usually influenced by alot of personal opinions and agendas

 

[Hayduke]

Dont group me with the mindless christians and there creation theory
I am simply stating that Evolution is just another theory, the same as Creationism or whatever your personal beliefs may be about how we all came to exist, but that it is regardless taught as proven fact and accepted as such by those with soft enough minds to be molded by the misguided educational system
Basically dont believe what you read, especially when it comes to history, as it is usually influenced by alot of personal opinions and agendas

Oops. sorry about that, it just had that tone... YES it is another theory but NO not like creationism! One is based on observations in the real world...touchable, verifiable, and repeatable! The other is based of faith, period.

A huge misconception made by most (not you I am sure), which is the use of the word theory. A Theory in science has been tested over and over (do not confuse with hypothesis!) to the point that it has reached the highly respected level of Theory. A "theory" to a lay person is an idea or thought. Huge difference.

Another misconception is that this is taught as FACT in public schools. This idea is perpetuated by the radical religious members of the community. It is the very "misguidance" you speak of, and is in fact also the personal agenda you also mention. This is how propaganda works!

Science educators are very aware of this...they even use it to teach what doing science really means and that it is absolutely not a fact. It is however the best we can come up with so far, to explain the world around us without resorting mere faith and hope. It is always taught with this air of doubt and left for the student to make up their mind while giving them the necessary information to do well on SAT's and get into college.

Do you really think teachers and their often christian administrators want HUNDREDS of pissed off fundamentalist parents pulling their kids out of class (taking away the state dollars for each student) just to further their agenda? NO NO NO NO NO!

Teachers are trying to keep their jobs, help all the kids who's parents do not have time for them for what ever reason, and convince them why learning and reading are not kryptonite, all the while trying to manage a class of 35 many of whom are suffering from the deficit of attention....or is it the other way around.

The myth of public school indoctrination to the dark side is one perpetuated by the old conservative religious wrong, with more time and money than love. They write to the "newspaper" constantly. The squeaky few.

Sorry about making that assumption though.

 

[cheafinkush]

this sounds horrible, but try grinding the fish up and then mixing it in, instead of just putting it in as a whole.

 

[SimpleSimon]

Three little gold fish in your 3 gallon pot will do next to nothing. Think about what happens to things as they break down. they get smaller. Plants and animals are 90% water. Your going to need a whole salmon per pot to get any thing out of it. And thats gonna fucking STINK!

What you want is to get some greensand. It's from the ocean, and its organic. AND just because the fish is a fish, doesn't mean its organic. Think of all the shit they feed those fish in the stores. I don't think its USDA ORGANIC approved.

There are better ways of getting the desired results without putting blinky in the soil. One goldfish will rot down to about a 1/8 teaspoon of actual material, not enough to do anything.

 

[Don't Bogart]

So here is what I know about Squanto, Samosett, and Massasoit. Oh and the Puritans.
Squanto was "assigned" by Massasoit to watch over the sorryass whites. In the process he showed them how they could add a herring (which the natives wouldn't eat. Considered it a trash food) to the planting of corn, and probably other plants to. (POT?).

They had pulled into port on DEC. 21, 16 whatever 20. And stayed on the boat till spring. Half (52 out of 104), of the puritans died that first winter.

At that point Massasoit should have maasacred them all right then and there. I bet he would've to if he knew that earlier contact with trappers and fishermen from Europe were the cause of 80% of his tribal domain dying from smallpox. And Samosett being the only survivor from his region for the same reason.
Here's another interesting item. Lobster was also considered trash food. After a storm farmers would drive the pigs down to shore to feed them lobsters. Prisoners of the time were given lobster 3 times a week. I would be hard pressed to bury a lobster with any seed.

 

[pinkus]

So here is what I know about Squanto, Samosett, and Massasoit. Oh and the Puritans.
Squanto was "assigned" by Massasoit to watch over the sorryass whites. In the process he showed them how they could add a herring (which the natives wouldn't eat. Considered it a trash food) to the planting of corn, and probably other plants to. (POT?).

They had pulled into port on DEC. 21, 16 whatever 20. And stayed on the boat till spring. Half (52 out of 104), of the puritans died that first winter.

At that point Massasoit should have maasacred them all right then and there. I bet he would've to if he knew that earlier contact with trappers and fishermen from Europe were the cause of 80% of his tribal domain dying from smallpox. And Samosett being the only survivor from his region for the same reason.
Here's another interesting item. Lobster was also considered trash food. After a storm farmers would drive the pigs down to shore to feed them lobsters. Prisoners of the time were given lobster 3 times a week. I would be hard pressed to bury a lobster with any seed.

Thanks DB! I knew this was all well documented. I got my facts wrong, except the important one. There was/is a tradition of using fish as ferts.

 

[Hayduke]

In the process he showed them how they could add a herring (which the natives wouldn't eat. Considered it a trash food) to the planting of corn, and probably other plants to. (POT?).

Smart Natives! They probably did not know this but after humans the greatest threat to the yummy fish, N. Atlantic Cod, are adult herring, they prey on the baby cod. Big Cod prey on Herring....but there are no big cod left! The fishery has collapsed.

Choose your dinner wisely.

 

[Ohsogreen]

Facts, Fiction & Name Calling... This thread has it all......
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OK.. I agree the native americans were wise and good stuarts of the land. I like the fact, they gave back as they took. Always thinking long term......
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I imagine the soil food web, was much better back then. Lot's of happy health micro-beasties... chewing it up and pooping it out. Lot's of good rich soil, devoid of harsh chemicals & toxins. Man could I have grown some 20 foot, Extra-Chronic Ganja Trees...back then.
.
Now to the present.... I would not put any dead animal in a pot and plant into that pot. It invites pests, would stink like a sewer and probably yield very little NPK value.
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Fish meal & Fish emulsions are great fertilizers when used with restraint. You can over do anything, if you use the more is better attitude. It's not.... feeding Mary low, slow and steady is the way to go.
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If Mr Goldfish, is floating in your tank.... flush him down the toilet....& make a sewer rat or sewer ninja turtles day.......
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Keep it Real... Organic.... but within reason.......

 

[Antman]

put the fish in a blender FIRST...............................................

LOL! You gotta admit, that's funny. As long as it's a fish that has already kicked it.

The point of burying the fish with the corn was to amend the soil for the future,

This is what you're missing. When the indians buried fish carcasses in the ground, it was to fertilize for NEXT YEARS CROPS. I don't think you would reap any benefits from it until it had the necessary time to break down.

 

[pinkus]

LOL! You gotta admit, that's funny. As long as it's a fish that has already kicked it.



This is what you're missing. When the indians buried fish carcasses in the ground, it was to fertilize for NEXT YEARS CROPS. I don't think you would reap any benefits from it until it had the necessary time to break down.

leave a fish on ur counter for a few days.THEN tell me it doesn't break down fast enough!

believe what you will; using fish carcases has a long history. You may believe that natives did this out of a devotion to stewardship, or for immediate delivery of nutes. The FACT is it was (and is)done.

I really think a lot of the reaction to this thread is a desire distance ourselves from natural processes, and to believe that we are somehow necessary to these processes. we are not.

I don't suggest the corpse method, I advise you to use fish emulsion. now i'll fall off my soap-box.

can't.... help it.....must.....play....devil's.... advocate.

 

[Antman]

I'm sure if you leave a fish on your counter for a few days it will start to rot and smell a bit, but it won't render anything you can use for fertilizer for quite a while. I think you hit your head when you fell off your soap-box if you believe otherwise. LOL! I'm done for tonight folks. Happy New Year to everyone!

 

[diemdepyro]

With respect to the PETA folks out there, has anyone ever tried burying a goldfish or two in the potting soil for fertilizer? Seems like as they "go", they would do a good job of providing time release nutrients for the plant. Might smell a little, but that part could come in handy too. Also since this is my first post on this forum let me say howdy to everyone here. Hopefully I will have something to contribute to the board in a few months, but in the mean time thanks for taking the time to read this post and if you have tried this method before or know someone who has, please share your experience with us. Thank you

I tried this but the aquarium lights messed up the roots.
The fish protein breaks down to Nitrogen.

 

[Hayduke]

The fish protein breaks down to Nitrogen.

Everything living that dies eventually breaks down into Nitrogen. In science it is called the Nitrogen cycle. Plant/animal dies, decomposes, nitrifying bacteria break it down, plants use it, some is released into the atmosphere (plants can not use this) animals eat the plants defecate, die , decompose....

OK I get an "A" on my nitrogen cycle quiz!

But seriously don't put Grandma, Nemo, or your turds on your plants until they compost...and not on your kitchen counter!

 

[pinkus]

(plants can not use this)

'cept them legumes.
must.....rock....BOAT!

 

[Hayduke]

'cept them legumes.
must.....rock....BOAT!

Ok yes, they make a deal with nitrogen fixing bacteria that trade fixed nitrogen for plant sugars through the nodules they create in the root system of the host plant. not all plants can do this but Lupines do. The good thing is the presence of these plants improves the surrounding soil benefiting the plant community as they fix more nitrogen than is used by the host plant.

If you ride ATV's stay on trail please!