are the mars hydro adlights worth it UV, IR, RED

I have a 3x3 flowering tent with a mars hydro evo 4800 as a light source. Was wondering if any of you guys use the IR,UV, RED adlights they sell (or any others)in your grows and if it's worth it to get them and add them to the fixture.
 

Star Dog

Well-Known Member
When people talk about "more resin" what is that based on?
Is it bigger trichs or more per cm³ how is "more" defined without a laboratory?
 
When people talk about "more resin" what is that based on?
Is it bigger trichs or more per cm³ how is "more" defined without a laboratory?
I think all the testing by the lab people indicate that they work as described, BUT as Star Dog points how - are the results even noticable or do they truly stand out as serious upgrade to "regular" lighting. I don't want to spend couple hundred bucks if I can't really TELL the difference.
 

Delps8

Well-Known Member
I think all the testing by the lab people indicate that they work as described, BUT as Star Dog points how - are the results even noticable or do they truly stand out as serious upgrade to "regular" lighting. I don't want to spend couple hundred bucks if I can't really TELL the difference.
I haven't found any research that indicates that UV, for example, has a measurable impact on cannabis but I'd love to read it if available.

The only reasearchers I've found on this are Bruce Bugbee, who touched on UV perhaps two years ago, and, earlier this year, Mitch Westmoreland, a PhD student under Bugbee, who discusses UV in the video he released in which he discusses UV as one of the topics he's doing for this dissertation.

Bugbee's comment was that the research that was done…30(?) years ago by, I think, Liden tested two sets of plants. One showed a change, one set didn't. His conclusion is that the results were "equivocal". Bugbee commented that he did look up the meaning of the word "equivocal" and, based on the meaning of the word and the test results, he wasn't able to say that there was a benefit.

Fast forward to earlier this years and Westmoreland, in his YT video, shares the results of his research and said that they could not find a benefit but, he assured the interviewer, that does not mean that there isn't a benefit it just means that even though they tried a variety of wavelengths, intensities and durations, they were not able to find a benefit.

Overall, Westmoreland recommends that growers give their plants "lotsa light" and present research that echoes what other researchers have demonstrated - crop yield increases as light levels increase so give your plants more light.

He also demonstrates that temperatures above 78° at the flower tops are very detrimental to cannabinoid levels.

I strongly recommend that growers watch his videos. They're a gold mine of "how to" in my opinion.

Back to UV.

I'm buying a new light for the flower portion of my upcoming grow. I'm replacing my Growcraft flower light with either a Vipar SE4500/G4500 or the Mars SP3000. I have no interest in buying UV lights because I've seen zero research that shows that they improve the quality of a cannabis grow. I understand that they're being heavily marketed but, lacking data, my wallet remains closed.

Why would companies sell a product without being able to demonstrate that it has a positive impact on your grow? One reason is because growers want them. They can, also, state that when Liden did his research, UV improved the something something in one of the sets of plants. That's completely true and to a marketing person, that's absolute justification to get products to market.

I don't think companies are wrong to so do - they're offering products that customers are willing to spend money on. And I don't think growers shouldn't spend money on UV lights, after all they're adults and are free to spend their money on whatever they want. And I'm quite sure that growers will say how much better their plants are doing.

The plural of the word "anecdote" is not "data".

My hobby horse is "just turn up the damned light" because there's scads of research that demonstrates that crop yield increases as light levels increase (until to the light saturation point) but that's a different topic.

Re. UV - for me, show me the data and I'm more than happy to write the check. Until that happens, I'll pass.
 
I haven't found any research that indicates that UV, for example, has a measurable impact on cannabis but I'd love to read it if available.

The only reasearchers I've found on this are Bruce Bugbee, who touched on UV perhaps two years ago, and, earlier this year, Mitch Westmoreland, a PhD student under Bugbee, who discusses UV in the video he released in which he discusses UV as one of the topics he's doing for this dissertation.

Bugbee's comment was that the research that was done…30(?) years ago by, I think, Liden tested two sets of plants. One showed a change, one set didn't. His conclusion is that the results were "equivocal". Bugbee commented that he did look up the meaning of the word "equivocal" and, based on the meaning of the word and the test results, he wasn't able to say that there was a benefit.

Fast forward to earlier this years and Westmoreland, in his YT video, shares the results of his research and said that they could not find a benefit but, he assured the interviewer, that does not mean that there isn't a benefit it just means that even though they tried a variety of wavelengths, intensities and durations, they were not able to find a benefit.

Overall, Westmoreland recommends that growers give their plants "lotsa light" and present research that echoes what other researchers have demonstrated - crop yield increases as light levels increase so give your plants more light.

He also demonstrates that temperatures above 78° at the flower tops are very detrimental to cannabinoid levels.

I strongly recommend that growers watch his videos. They're a gold mine of "how to" in my opinion.

Back to UV.

I'm buying a new light for the flower portion of my upcoming grow. I'm replacing my Growcraft flower light with either a Vipar SE4500/G4500 or the Mars SP3000. I have no interest in buying UV lights because I've seen zero research that shows that they improve the quality of a cannabis grow. I understand that they're being heavily marketed but, lacking data, my wallet remains closed.

Why would companies sell a product without being able to demonstrate that it has a positive impact on your grow? One reason is because growers want them. They can, also, state that when Liden did his research, UV improved the something something in one of the sets of plants. That's completely true and to a marketing person, that's absolute justification to get products to market.

I don't think companies are wrong to so do - they're offering products that customers are willing to spend money on. And I don't think growers shouldn't spend money on UV lights, after all they're adults and are free to spend their money on whatever they want. And I'm quite sure that growers will say how much better their plants are doing.

The plural of the word "anecdote" is not "data".

My hobby horse is "just turn up the damned light" because there's scads of research that demonstrates that crop yield increases as light levels increase (until to the light saturation point) but that's a different topic.

Re. UV - for me, show me the data and I'm more than happy to write the check. Until that happens, I'll pass.
Kind of seeing the same thing, which is why I'm askin. What about the IR and Deep red - your thoughts on those?
 

Delps8

Well-Known Member
Kind of seeing the same thing, which is why I'm askin. What about the IR and Deep red - your thoughts on those?
Deep red is part of the PAR spectrum so a "standard" LED grow light should generate a fair amount of light in that range. 660nm is where I'm used to seeing a spike in the spectrum.

This is the spectrum of the Growcraft (RIP) flower light. Lots of red, not much blue.
1724780063420.png

IR (>700nm?) is 730nm to my way of thinking and that's where the Emerson effect comes in, right?

While I haven't read the research, "the Emerson effect' has been around for…

OK, Google is your friend. This rang some bells for me.

I've seen it discussed has having two main impacts - it changes the sleep pattern of cannabis in a good way (love that science talk!) and I think the Emerson effect is that it enhances photosynthesis by acting in concert with deep red.

A vote for using a supplemental 730 is that Bugbee refers to it as a "flamethrower", in a positive way, that is. While I'm not one to latch on to appeals to authority, the guy does know his stuff.

One issue I have with the supplemental lights is that they don't generate a lot of light and their cost is relatively high. Per the Specs tab on this page, you're paying $80 for a light that has a PPF of 61µmol. Yes, they're 730nm but a PPF 61µmol? And the PPFD at the canopy level is…40µmol? Is that all that's needed to do great things? I really don't know. It does bear some investigation but, a lot of growers seem to be pretty strapped for cash so my thinking is that they're better off on getting a high powered light instead of adding 730 to something with limited output.

My perspective is, I'll admit, a bit of a "one note Sally" because of my focus on getting plants to high light levels within the PAR spectrum. My bias for that is because we're already paying for a light that, if we turn the dial up, will give us huge yields. It's all well and good to add in far red but, instead of spending another $X for a slight improvement, why not just turn up the dial?

Another issue is that I don't see a light that I want that has 730 in it. Based on what Westmoreland published this Spring - and I read his research re. cannabanoids three years ago and didn't act on it - I'm retiring my Growcraft flower light and getting the very high output SE/G4500 from Vipar. That's a 430 (or 480?) watt light for a 2' x 4' which is the same wattage as they put in their SE5000 (4' tent) IIRC. That's a beast.

The other light I'm considering is the Mars SP3000R, spectrum below. Unfortunately, the PPFD map is "unusual":

1724780174485.png

1724780185281.png

The rationale for these changes is that I've drunk the Westmoreland koolaid - get as much light as you can get on your plants with tent temps up to 85° through the second week of flower//when the plant stops building out its infrastructure. At that point, keep the temps at the tops of the flowers <78° to minimize cannabanoid loss. It's a really simple approach and he's got the data to support his argument.

Woud 730nm add to that? I have no doubt that it will. But (there's always a "but", right?) I would prioritize using 730nm lower down on the scale than max PPFD and controlled temps. But, now that you've brought it up, you've piqued my interest. ;-)
 

Rocket Soul

Well-Known Member
@driver77 is using some mars uv/ir strips and could probably chipp in with opinions. In my opinion adding some uv and some "par uv" - violets lower than 440nm but still mainly within the par range is beneficial but you should be careful the lower you go in the uv range; you always need more of the more closer to par range than uva 365 or 285nm.
 

driver77

Well-Known Member
I added uva and ir to all my tents after trying it on one grow. I feel you need both uva and ir to get best results....ir alone can cause excessive internodal stretch...the uva counters it and adds it's own benefits of potency/terps, bud density, pest/disease suppression and won't damage the plant. Even in veg I think they add to growth rate.
Mine are the old style of combined MH uva/ir that are difficult to time independently...the new ones are much better. The only ill effect I get from running them too much is plants will start growing toward them instead of straight up.
I'm sure there is a formula to determine the % of each light required but smarter guys than me will, have to chime in for that.
Bottom line is I highly recommend adding whatever brand of uva, ir, and depending on your main light more 660 red too that suits you......just get it in your tent...you will be impressed with results....it is a noticeable improvement.
 

Delps8

Well-Known Member
I added uva and ir to all my tents after trying it on one grow. I feel you need both uva and ir to get best results....ir alone can cause excessive internodal stretch...the uva counters it and adds it's own benefits of potency/terps, bud density, pest/disease suppression and won't damage the plant. Even in veg I think they add to growth rate.
Mine are the old style of combined MH uva/ir that are difficult to time independently...the new ones are much better. The only ill effect I get from running them too much is plants will start growing toward them instead of straight up.
I'm sure there is a formula to determine the % of each light required but smarter guys than me will, have to chime in for that.
Bottom line is I highly recommend adding whatever brand of uva, ir, and depending on your main light more 660 red too that suits you......just get it in your tent...you will be impressed with results....it is a noticeable improvement.
Blue light inhibits cells expansion, red light tends to increase cell expansion. One of the reasons to use a veg light is that it makes plants short and compact. I use a veg LED and a flower LED. The plant below was vegged for about 40 days under a Growcraft X3 light. It was topped at day 21 and LST'd and was then grown under their flower light.

IMG_0174.jpeg

1724899495580.png

The only % "requirement" that I've been able to find is a comment by Bugbee that flower lights should have at least 4% blue to avoid misshapen plants.

Bugbee's latest (as of this Spring) advice was to use a white LED with some far red. He referred to the far red as being like a "flamethrower" for growth. This spectrum is from one of his recent videos:

1724897897301.png

Bugbee's advice is that while spectrum is key to shaping plants, the most important issue is to maximize light levels. Mitch Westmoreland, a PhD student under Bugbee, validated that in the videos he released this spring in which he shared portions of the research he did for this thesis. In the videos, Westmoreland states that they were not able to find benefit from using UV light but acknowledges that there are a huge number of combinations of exposure time, different wavelengths, and different intensities so it's quite possible that UV light has a benefit. His issue is that they are unable to demonstrate any benefit.

If a grower has found an approach to using UV that is reproducible, I would highly recommend that the grower contact Mitch and share that information. He's just one person working in a lab so he's limited in what he can test. On the other hand, if someone finds a winning combination, everyone would benefit if it could be reproduced.

PAR, short for "photosynthetically active radiation, covers the 400 to 700nm range. That's been the historical definition but Bugbee has adovocated that ANSI introduce ePAR or "extended PAR" which would extend the upper limit from 700 to 750. The lower limit is not changed because light with a wavelength shorter than 400nm is not photosynthetically active, per above.

That's not to say UV doesn't impact how plants grow. The "not photosynthetically active" means that it doesn't play a role in photosynthesis.

The screenshot below is from this page:
1724898175725.png

The graphic below shows the percentage make up of various grow lights and it confirms that HPS, historically used as a flower light, does have 4% blue in the spectrum.

1724898214756.png
 

Rocket Soul

Well-Known Member
I added uva and ir to all my tents after trying it on one grow. I feel you need both uva and ir to get best results....ir alone can cause excessive internodal stretch...the uva counters it and adds it's own benefits of potency/terps, bud density, pest/disease suppression and won't damage the plant. Even in veg I think they add to growth rate.
Mine are the old style of combined MH uva/ir that are difficult to time independently...the new ones are much better. The only ill effect I get from running them too much is plants will start growing toward them instead of straight up.
I'm sure there is a formula to determine the % of each light required but smarter guys than me will, have to chime in for that.
Bottom line is I highly recommend adding whatever brand of uva, ir, and depending on your main light more 660 red too that suits you......just get it in your tent...you will be impressed with results....it is a noticeable improvement.
What kind of smells and terps are you getting in the new kitted tents? From what uv diodes and wattage? And in comparison to what you used to get:) Only asking to cross reference: added a fairly aggressive amount of "exotic blurple" to a few of our trays and got some very varied results: some cuts had excellent volatile terps some seemed to have gone a bit overboard and the volatiles all smelled a bit like celery. Both the nice and the celery volatiles had the same kind of character in the smell and it would generally go away very fast. The exotic blurple was around 1:1 in uv: 365/385/400 and reds 660/680/730. This types of smells was very new and unique to me; never had it on any other trays, even with fairly deep and high uv supplement. So trying to figure it out now :)

Best and most consistent results ive had adding 400 and 365 in 2:1 ratios.
 

driver77

Well-Known Member
What kind of smells and terps are you getting in the new kitted tents? From what uv diodes and wattage? And in comparison to what you used to get:) Only asking to cross reference: added a fairly aggressive amount of "exotic blurple" to a few of our trays and got some very varied results: some cuts had excellent volatile terps some seemed to have gone a bit overboard and the volatiles all smelled a bit like celery. Both the nice and the celery volatiles had the same kind of character in the smell and it would generally go away very fast. The exotic blurple was around 1:1 in uv: 365/385/400 and reds 660/680/730. This types of smells was very new and unique to me; never had it on any other trays, even with fairly deep and high uv supplement. So trying to figure it out now :)

Best and most consistent results ive had adding 400 and 365 in 2:1 ratios.
Terps were better overall in general....more pronounced and vivid compared to grows without it and I think frostier too. Same as you it seems to effect some plants more than others and I'm very familiar with that slight celery smell too...seems to fade into the background after harvest with the chlorophyll.
I noticed overall larger plants once I got the ratio dialed in .....I was running the uva very sparingly and plants were stretching to the moon......and the opposite when I went uva heavy. I run them timed together now...but that's at a 2:1 ratio of wattage. I would still be messing with the time ratios if I had those new bars that can all be timed independently.....I'm sure there are more efficient ways to use supplements for even better results getting closer to sun like lighting.....you can get the sunrise sunset...heavy midday uv.......steer a particular cultivar into a more beneficial structure...lots of benefits.
My bars are 385 and 740 and I believe it's a 30w of uva and 15w of ir split....mains are MH fc8000's(another is a generic brand) run at around 500w to 700w. I run the bars as long as I can until plants start growing towards them then back them off a touch or turn main up. That's usually in the area of 2hrs on 1 hr off with main schedule.
 

Rocket Soul

Well-Known Member
Tube UV supplementation doesnt seem to work aswell as uv leds in tests ive seen. At least not significant results or even lower than led uva in GLA tests.
 
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