Is it really "soil"? (FFOF, ETC.)?

tstick

tstick

Well-Known Member
On this latest run, I started out with the same mix as I have been using forever -with FFOF and FFHF with some amendments...BUT, I ran into a serious pH issue and ended up having to flush and leach the mix in order to get the pH back on point. After that, I realized that I had basically converted my "soil" into an inert media that contained little or no nutrients. It was basically a mixture of peat moss, coco coire, perlite and rice hulls. No actually "dirt" type soil at all. It might as well be rock wool! So, I water with Jack's 3-2-1 at every watering -because I am quite literally running a drain-to-waste, hand-watered hydroponic system.
 
weedstoner420

weedstoner420

Well-Known Member
If you flushed your mix, you only flushed out water-soluble elements. There are still things that can be broken down and converted into plant-available form. And there are still microbes there, maybe not as many as before, but they'll come back.

And technically speaking, soil contains a mix of sand, silt, and clay, with some organic matter, so what you're using was never technically soil to begin with, it's always been a soilless mix... :P
 
Budzbuddha

Budzbuddha

Well-Known Member
It is possible to overly flush or LEACH your medium to a point that it needs to be fully amended and rebalanced .

Not sure what kind of PH “ issue “ would require such a heavy handed approach. Either of those “ soils “ can easily be rebalanced / recharged with a fresh soil topdress or simple soil bagged tea infusion.

The buffering from the fresh soil topdress would put things back as normal. You should only water as necessary- NO RUNOFF CHECKING. Especially if you running your soil containers on that soil alone.

Sounds like you stripped everything out by heavy leaching / flushing.

Is it possible to up pot into fresh soil / medium ?
 
tstick

tstick

Well-Known Member
Budzbuddha said:
It is possible to overly flush or LEACH your medium to a point that it needs to be fully amended and rebalanced .

Not sure what kind of PH “ issue “ would require such a heavy handed approach. Either of those “ soils “ can easily be rebalanced / recharged with a fresh soil topdress or simple soil bagged tea infusion.

The buffering from the fresh soil topdress would put things back as normal. You should only water as necessary- NO RUNOFF CHECKING. Especially if you running your soil containers on that soil alone.

Sounds like you stripped everything out by heavy leaching / flushing.

Is it possible to up pot into fresh soil / medium ?
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I'm not sure, either! All I know is that there was no deficiency when the plants started to display signs of deficiencies. I then checked the pH in the only way I could -with my GH drops.
I'm not a believer in "NO RUNOFF CHECKING" because by checking the runoff and finding the pH to be that low, was what inevitably put me onto the solution to the problem. Yes, I leached the fuck out of the pots to try and reset the pH. Yes, it was drastic. And yes, it worked. So, there really isn't a "DO" or "DON'T DO" when it comes to a desperate situation. You try everything you can.

EDIT: What harm does it do to check runoff. anyway? I don't get the philosophy behind not doing it. I've heard people say that "It's not an accurate indication"...but so what if it's not 100% accurate? If all you need is a ballpark figure, then it seems to work perfectly fine for that. Will it tell you whether the pH is 6.8 or 6.5? No. But it WILL tell you if the pH is too acidic or too basic. I've never ever gotten a really high pH reading, but I often get low pH indications. And it's not surprising since peat moss is the base of most of these soil less mixes and it can be naturally acidic. I'd definitely be telling people to check the runoff if they are in a soilless mix and are seeing signs of deficiencies when the mix loaded with stuff.

I learned a new lesson. I learned that I had probably not been addressing the pH in regards to soil-less mixes and that I should have been. I had always believed that these mixes buffer themselves...but this wasn't the case on my last experience. I turned my soilless mix into an inert substrate that now needs full fertilizer solution every watering. I felt it was a desperate but necessary move. Maybe I could have done something else, but what I did has worked so far.
 
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Hollatchaboy

Hollatchaboy

Well-Known Member
tstick said:
I'm not sure, either! All I know is that there was no deficiency when the plants started to display signs of deficiencies. I then checked the pH in the only way I could -with my GH drops.
I'm not a believer in "NO RUNOFF CHECKING" because by checking the runoff and finding the pH to be that low, was what inevitably put me onto the solution to the problem. Yes, I leached the fuck out of the pots to try and reset the pH. Yes, it was drastic. And yes, it worked. So, there really isn't a "DO" or "DON'T DO" when it comes to a desperate situation. You try everything you can.

EDIT: What harm does it do to check runoff. anyway? I don't get the philosophy behind not doing it. I've heard people say that "It's not an accurate indication"...but so what if it's not 100% accurate? If all you need is a ballpark figure, then it seems to work perfectly fine for that. Will it tell you whether the pH is 6.8 or 6.5? No. But it WILL tell you if the pH is too acidic or too basic. I've never ever gotten a really high pH reading, but I often get low pH indications. And it's not surprising since peat moss is the base of most of these soil less mixes and it can be naturally acidic. I'd definitely be telling people to check the runoff if they are in a soilless mix and are seeing signs of deficiencies when the mix loaded with stuff.

I learned a new lesson. I learned that I had probably not been addressing the pH in regards to soil-less mixes and that I should have been. I had always believed that these mixes buffer themselves...but this wasn't the case on my last experience. I turned my soilless mix into an inert substrate that now needs full fertilizer solution every watering. I felt it was a desperate but necessary move. Maybe I could have done something else, but what I did has worked so far.
Click to expand...
As a general rule, if growing organically, in an organic mix, you don't need to pH water. The microbial life in the mix, will adjust the pH to their, and the plants liking, at least in my experience.

Measuring runoff pH is considered useless, because the pH will be different, through different zones in the media, from what I've been led to understand. You can't get an accurate measurement, of the whole.

When I was growing in l.o.s., I never pH'd input water, and I never tested runoff, because there really wasn't any runoff.

I pH my nute solution for coco, but I've never tested the runoff. If you use an accurate pH meter, and get good runoff, the pH, should stay within usable range.
 
tstick

tstick

Well-Known Member
*just having some coffee and thinking....

There are lots of stories on this website, in regards to "What's wrong with my plants?" And much of the time, they post pictures of leaves that have some spots on them...."CALCIUM DEFICIENCY!"....Or, pictures of plants with red stems...."MAGNESIUM!" But it's difficult to understand how a small plant in a fresh batch of, say, FFOF or FFHF (or a mix of both) could be deficient. If anything, FFOF is considered to be kind of "hot". How could a 1-month old plant in a 3-gallon pot, be deficient? Just by deductive reasoning, you could rule out deficient soil. What does that leave? There is a strong possibility that the symptoms of a deficient soil mix is, in fact, a pH lockout issue. But, few people have a $400 pH pen or they don't know how to use one if they did have one! ;) And, as with this thread, there are people who actually advise to NOT check it via runoff....which I just don't agree with at all. pH checking via runoff might not be considered as much as it should be, in my opinion.

I get that an organic "soil" mix should be able to generate symbiotic relationships and balance itself in terms of pH....but, then again, sometimes, it doesn't. It's like living soil -except dead. Maybe it could be "jump started" by top dressing or whatever....but that takes time. When your plants are sick, you don't have time.
 
BudmanTX

BudmanTX

Well-Known Member
tstick said:
On this latest run, I started out with the same mix as I have been using forever -with FFOF and FFHF with some amendments...BUT, I ran into a serious pH issue and ended up having to flush and leach the mix in order to get the pH back on point. After that, I realized that I had basically converted my "soil" into an inert media that contained little or no nutrients. It was basically a mixture of peat moss, coco coire, perlite and rice hulls. No actually "dirt" type soil at all. It might as well be rock wool! So, I water with Jack's 3-2-1 at every watering -because I am quite literally running a drain-to-waste, hand-watered hydroponic system.
Click to expand...
umm question how come you didn't put any manure in your soil? Peat, manure, perlite is a great combinational start for living soil, mix in some standard nutrients like some 10/10/10 fert, and you should be ready to go, and then top dress with the fert later on....jc
 
tstick

tstick

Well-Known Member
BudmanTX said:
umm question how come you didn't put any manure in your soil? Peat, manure, perlite is a great combinational start for living soil, mix in some standard nutrients like some 10/10/10 fert, and you should be ready to go, and then top dress with the fert later on....jc
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Well, I'm sure there are endless things that I could have done differently.

Next year, I'm going to try out Dr. Bruce Bugbee's soil mix.
 
BudmanTX

BudmanTX

Well-Known Member
tstick said:
Well, I'm sure there are endless things that I could have done differently.

Next year, I'm going to try out Dr. Bruce Bugbee's soil mix.
Click to expand...
problably.....imo for me i like to cut my purchase soils, sometimes they're a little hot right out of the bag, so i cut them with peat and manure to balance it out
 
Hollatchaboy

Hollatchaboy

Well-Known Member
tstick said:
*just having some coffee and thinking....

There are lots of stories on this website, in regards to "What's wrong with my plants?" And much of the time, they post pictures of leaves that have some spots on them...."CALCIUM DEFICIENCY!"....Or, pictures of plants with red stems...."MAGNESIUM!" But it's difficult to understand how a small plant in a fresh batch of, say, FFOF or FFHF (or a mix of both) could be deficient. If anything, FFOF is considered to be kind of "hot". How could a 1-month old plant in a 3-gallon pot, be deficient? Just by deductive reasoning, you could rule out deficient soil. What does that leave? There is a strong possibility that the symptoms of a deficient soil mix is, in fact, a pH lockout issue. But, few people have a $400 pH pen or they don't know how to use one if they did have one! ;) And, as with this thread, there are people who actually advise to NOT check it via runoff....which I just don't agree with at all. pH checking via runoff might not be considered as much as it should be, in my opinion.

I get that an organic "soil" mix should be able to generate symbiotic relationships and balance itself in terms of pH....but, then again, sometimes, it doesn't. It's like living soil -except dead. Maybe it could be "jump started" by top dressing or whatever....but that takes time. When your plants are sick, you don't have time.
Click to expand...
Ideally, you want to top dress before the soil becomes depleted, but in the event that you don't, you can use some Neptune's Harvest fish fertilizer, for readily available nutes, until your top dress starts breaking down. Ferments, and nutrient tea, work also.

Read thru @Budzbuddha piss thread. Apparently that works too. Lol
 
secretmicrogrow420

secretmicrogrow420

Well-Known Member
tstick said:
I'm not sure, either! All I know is that there was no deficiency when the plants started to display signs of deficiencies. I then checked the pH in the only way I could -with my GH drops.
I'm not a believer in "NO RUNOFF CHECKING" because by checking the runoff and finding the pH to be that low, was what inevitably put me onto the solution to the problem. Yes, I leached the fuck out of the pots to try and reset the pH. Yes, it was drastic. And yes, it worked. So, there really isn't a "DO" or "DON'T DO" when it comes to a desperate situation. You try everything you can.

I learned a new lesson. I learned that I had probably not been addressing the pH in regards to soil-less mixes and that I should have been. I had always believed that these mixes buffer themselves...but this wasn't the case on my last experience. I turned my soilless mix into an inert substrate that now needs full fertilizer solution every watering. I felt it was a desperate but necessary move. Maybe I could have done something else, but what I did has worked so far.
Click to expand...
i tried fox farms i had to add fertilizer early on in the plants life. i also tried a brand called recipe 420 soil and dude that if off the hook good! my plants in recipe 420 never ever looked hungry they always looked super healthy and well fed.
if you guys can get recipe 420 in your area i say do it and mix some perlite into it because my bags had like no perlite in them.
 
weedstoner420

weedstoner420

Well-Known Member
In organic soil/soilless mix, you're probably better off doing a slurry test to check the pH of the medium, rather than measuring the runoff. Even then, microbial activity in the rhizosphere can alter the pH that the roots are directly exposed to.

I think you're over-simplifying the affect of "flushing" in an organic mix, too. Think of a potted plant on your deck. When you get a heavy rain, the soil doesn't suddenly become inert and need fertilizing forever. What you did may have had an effect, but I doubt it's as drastic as you're thinking
 
tstick

tstick

Well-Known Member
weedstoner420 said:
In organic soil/soilless mix, you're probably better off doing a slurry test to check the pH of the medium, rather than measuring the runoff. Even then, microbial activity in the rhizosphere can alter the pH that the roots are directly exposed to.

I think you're over-simplifying the affect of "flushing" in an organic mix, too. Think of a potted plant on your deck. When you get a heavy rain, the soil doesn't suddenly become inert and need fertilizing forever. What you did may have had an effect, but I doubt it's as drastic as you're thinking
Click to expand...
I actually DID also do a slurry test, too, and it confirmed the runoff test. I extracted some soil from the inner portion of the root ball via, mixed it with distilled water and allowed it to settle. Then I drew off some of the clear water and tested it....almost identical to the runoff test. pH was ~4.0! I concluded that the runoff test was more accurate (in a ballpark kind of way) than people suspect.

As far as flushing...I KNOW the mix was loaded when the plants were potted up. Whatever the exact element was that created the overly-acidic pH in that mix, needed to be eliminated. The only way I knew how to do that was to flush/leach the "piss" (heh heh) out of it! It worked for me. It's like I wanted to do organic, but I ended up with a flood/drain-to-waste hydro system -except all done by hand! Weird, yes. I know. But my plants are thankful, now. therefore I must have done something right.
 
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