defoliation when in flower

[gr865]

I'm currently in a pickle about this

First pic is of this plant taken roughly same time (early wk 6) when I grew it from seed

View attachment 5202976

These next pics are the same strain from clone, taken about the same time of flower. which I defoliated very heavily. I'm feeling it's quite a ways behind the plants in the first pic. The buds are smaller and also a lot of them don't have many pistils and are quite hard.View attachment 5202978View attachment 5202979
View attachment 5202980

It's hard to say exactly that defoliation is the cause but there's a couple of variables;

1. It's been very cold, coming out of winter, and tent night time temps have been colder. First pic was grown through summer and tent was basically too hot most of the time. Plants thrived, no heat stress signs and monster yield. Second pics were grown throughout end of winter just coming into spring now.

2. Didn't use Mammoth P (supposedly microbials accessing more Phosphorus) in the second pics

3. Defolatiated the living shit out of plants in the bottom photos

4. In the first pic the plants were getting blasted with 100% light which would have been over 1100-1200 ųmols and even more at the top colas. second pic has had lights down about 750-1000ųmols across the canopy (also growing a strain alongside that doesn't like intense light)



pH and EC have been spot on and virtually identical for both grows, minus the Mammoth P in second group. There is zero tip burn, canoes or deficiencies/toxicities showing

So... I am hoping the buds fatten up a lot from here as I have just added the bloom booster.

Also, I had a thought the other day.... with a canopy of foliage, it can only catch so much light "fallint" from above, so if you defoliate but there Is still a lot of light falling on some form of plant before it hits the floor, the plants still catching the same amount of light, right? Or am I wrong?

Edit: here's before and after defoliation

View attachment 5202981View attachment 5202982

I'm going to run tbis strain again, I will try a side by side experiment but we are going into warm weather again and I'll probably use Mammoth P again but can still see.

When did you do that, 21 days into flower and then at day 42?

 

[Grow Monster]

Im thinking of doing same thing to mine. Guy on youtube did a side by side comparison. Yield and bud size came out the same. Just got better air flow and light penetration. That strain he used suggested heavy defoliation for best results.

 

[luckybleu]

Old thread, first post by noob here, but I want to make sure my understanding is sound....

Basically removing any leaf will cause a reaction in the plant because that leaf had a job? Be it the job it originally grew for, or for a job it matured into, it still had a job or function and after it has completed its function it yellows, withers, and eventually falls off?

If this statement is true, then it begs the questions, if we defoliate how do we determine what that leafs' function was when it was removed and what the plant had to do to compensate for the loss of function beyond what we can see? Also, not knowing what the function is at that specific point in that leafs life when it is removed, how do we know we have not broken a chain of functions for which the plant has to compensate, be it bud production or cannabinoid production, and thus expend extra time and energy to replace?. Obviously, if the leaf is yellow and withered its function is complete, so removal is not an issue, but a healthy green leaf, if my understanding is correct, is doing something even if its just feeding the leaf that grew above it so that that leaf can perform its function, and by removing it we may break a chain of functions that can not be duplicated again and finished by the new growth due to the plants' maturity or the same components not being readily available at this point ( ie. the components being stored in the removed leaf that is maturing).

I am a big time defoliator, always have been and thought I always would be, producing great product and lots of it and would have argued about how great it is to do so, based on my personal experience. Now I wonder if I haven't sold myself short all this time, due to my lack of real understanding. That what I produced, no matter how big, good, or potent it was, could have been exponentially better if I had just stuck to early topping and left the leaves alone in flower. That the plants only grew the way they did because of the genetics, the soil, and my ability to keep my plant healthy, not defoliation, and if I left it alone during flowering, because of all the things I do right, I could have had so much more The big mistake in my thinking that all the leaves were doing the same job, but from what I have read here though, they can be storing the same components(or different) at the same time (or different times) to be released at the same time (or different times) in the plants flowering cycle to produce the best possible representation of the plant. Not even realizing that each leaf evolves on its own and can be doing a different job at that moment based on the plants needs and leaf maturity, even though side by side with another leaf, they appear to the eye, to be the same type of leaf performing the same job. Thinking that the plant wasted energy producing leaf instead of bud, when its actually the plant producing leaf so the leaf can produce the energy to grow the bud.

A big pill to swallow for me, how much more I could have had. Basic botany to others here I guess. I think I am having a Homer Simpson moment, hopefully the first of many at this site.

DOH! (slaps forehead)

#LeaveLeafsalone

 

[Budzbuddha]

Pee on it

 

[trees_in_reverse]

Okokok, I am lucky enough to be growing for a university and one of our tents just cleared, there's nothing much else going on right now so I might just try out a small run with:

group A) Taking all the big fan leaves at the beginning of flower and around day 21, to focus on the canopy
group B) taking the bigger leaves from the top of the plant and leaving the bottom ones to supposedly get light deep down
group C) no defoliation at all

was planning 10 plants for group A & B and 5 for C.
Parameters to check will be yield (in total and popcorn/pretty buds) and maaaybe if I can use the lab also cannabinoid levels

Happy about input!

 

[luckybleu]

Just so everyone knows.. That plant I posted a pic of turned yellow and defoliated itself after adding molasses to the water. Like within a week of adding 1/2 table spoon of molasses to 6 cups of water. Molasses = no bueno

I fed into the whole molasses thing,stopped a long time ago.

 

[Obepawn]

Okokok, I am lucky enough to be growing for a university and one of our tents just cleared, there's nothing much else going on right now so I might just try out a small run with:

group A) Taking all the big fan leaves at the beginning of flower and around day 21, to focus on the canopy
group B) taking the bigger leaves from the top of the plant and leaving the bottom ones to supposedly get light deep down
group C) no defoliation at all

was planning 10 plants for group A & B and 5 for C.
Parameters to check will be yield (in total and popcorn/pretty buds) and maaaybe if I can use the lab also cannabinoid levels

Happy about input!

A lot of legal grow here in the Coachella Valley, defoliation at day 21 flower and day 42 is standard in the industry. At Rove it was like that and Bodhi Plant Science.

 

[budman111]

A lot of legal grow here in the Coachella Valley, defoliation at day 21 flower and day 42 is standard in the industry.

Really? I have only heard day 1 and day 21 of flower defoliation (works amazing)

 

[senorthc]

Im currently in week 3 and have defiolated lightly each day this week. so far no harm, I usually follow a couple weeks up to flower, and again week 3 of flower then leave it alone. But I guess that could vary strain by strain. I have a 5 gallon dwc filling out a 3x3 and even with heavy lollipopping and top defoliation she still wants to bush out.

 

[Mason Jar 92705]

I fed into the whole molasses thing,stopped a long time ago.

Exactly. What are we doing, making pancakes?!

 

[Farmer's Hat]

Molasses... 1tsp per gallon.

 

[gr865]

After the 21st day trim I only remove fan leaves that are covering bud sites and have at least a one inch stem. Prior to this I only remove large fans covering major bud sites.
Same after 42nd day trim.
I shut the irrigation and off a few days prior to harvest and do a per harvest trim.
This just what I do, but every grow is different. Sometimes there is more trim done, sometimes less trim.
I have over trimmed in the past that cost me final weight.



Thought this was a cool pic, just the UV lamp on. The soft ties holding the plants bent.

 

[waytoofaded]

I use to do it too, until I learned the science behind it. It's 100% unnecessary to feed the microbes in your soil sugars, that's already produced by the plant, the only time it might be useful is in the last 2-3 weeks of flower when the plant has reach senescense and no longer living symbiotically with the microbes anymore, but I still haven't really found anything to support this.

I fed into the whole molasses thing,stopped a long time ago.