cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
Exactly. I find it not only to be sententious but simplistic. Which is why I pushed back against a quote from centuries ago being presented as a truism.
Yesterday's Mass Shooting.
- Thread starter Unclebaldrick
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DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
It is a moral judgment for sure, but it is meant in the sense of causality, in that an action leads to predictable outcomes, like jumping off a high building means certain death!
Sometimes when I read about yet another mass murder, I get pretty disgusted and that is reflected in my writing and choice of Jefferson's quote. The English adopted the saying after the French revolution devolved into chaos and horror, Jefferson who was a Francophile got it from the horse's mouth well before the French revolution he spent some time in France working for the American government.
DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
It speaks of a nation as a whole unit and not the fate of individuals or what they deserve. It is a warning to be careful about what you elect or desire. The Germans of 1933 never thought they would be freezing their asses off in Russia 10 years later, even the nazi party members.
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
The trouble is that it suggests a certain determinism. As Fogdog said, stochastic phenomena are of first-order importance between expectation and outcome.
Roger A. Shrubber
Well-Known Member
Isn't everything a stochastic phenomena?....We really have no control at all over the universe, not even over our own overburdened world.
Some days it seems like i have no control over the inanimate objects in my house that seem to array themselves in ways providential to my harming myself.
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
I don’t know. There are chaotic phenomena, which follow a math that is neither.
Roger A. Shrubber
Well-Known Member
I feel that i could be a chaotic phenomena generator...
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
To your second paragraph, have you heard of the philosophy of Resistentialism?
“Les choses … sont contre nous.”
DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
It is like the rest of life, play in the traffic on a freeway and your odds of misfortune increase. Likewise, don't vote for republicans if you expect anything to be done about guns. If 80% want reasonable restrictions, then logic should dictate that those will be the election results, but they are not, so far. However, gun control seems to be taking on a life of its own and increasingly driving the agenda, fueled by mass shootings and by the youth vote. We will see if it has any impact in about a year and a half. Another issue that is increasingly driving the agenda is abortion and both gun control and reproductive rights are driving the female vote.
Fogdog
Well-Known Member
What did I do to cause President Trump? Or our stupid gun laws? Near as I can tell, I was born in a country that had a lot of other people in it who are racist gun loving assholes. What causality did I affect when I was born in the US?
Your argument of causality lacks intelligence on two levels. First off it implies people can control everything in their lives and that is false. Second, that statement has no use. What can an infant do about their "deservedly" abusive parents that they were born to? Regarding the gun issues going down right now You can say I deserve what happened in Texas at that mall. That is not only false but a useless charge because I can't do anything to affect Texas's gun laws today. In reality, you are just behaving like some crazed old coot who is shouting nonsense.
Furthermore, when Nope was getting all haughty at you for "just voting" for people who say they will do something to help end homelessness in your neck of the woods, you took my argument. Hey, I voted. Good on you if you want to do more but eff you if you want to assign some causal role to to me about something over which I have no control.
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DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
You want to argue with causality? The statement, the people get the government they deserve is not about individuals, but about the fate of nations, victims and all. It is about national choices like electing Trump and the consequences that flow from that, or electing republicans and the consequences of that choice for the country and the individuals, whether they voted for it or not, or never even had a vote like in Russia, because apathy is a choice too. I believe in causality, most rational people do and it apples to nations as well as individuals, to collective choices as well as individual ones. Elect Trump as a collective choice and suffer for it collectively, even if you never voted for him, you none the less suffered from the collective choice. It's not about blame it's about causality and that is merely a fact of nature and has little to do with morality.
Roger A. Shrubber
Well-Known Member
It's a rare day that doesn't see me kicking some inanimate object out of my way in annoyance, but it's my fault, not the foot stools, or the vacuums...
Roger A. Shrubber
Well-Known Member
So you're saying that the responsible people in a country who vote for good people who will try to make the country a better place, are just as responsible for the shitty politicians that get into office as the asshat idiots who actually voted for them?
Please explain that logic, without talking about Jefferson or the French...
Causality is only useful as a metric to stop people from repeating mistakes. Using it to assign blame is idiotic, and turns it into a tool for petty argument. Causality is used by actuaries and statisticians, to asses future risks. using it to paint everyone in an entire country with the same brush is useless, and pretty bigoted, actually...
Did you ask those truckers to fuck up international shipping? Or to fuck up the lives of that entire towns people for days on end? But you all must have deserved it, according to your logic, nothing happens without a cause, and YOU had to be that cause...ALL of YOU...Sound fair to you?
Also, you guys need to beef up your border security, to stop the flow of illegal guns coming in from America...someone in Canada wants those guns, there's your causality, THEY'RE the ones responsible, according to your argument, get rid of them, and the problem goes away, right?
DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
If you are an average Russian, you might not like Vlad, but you like the idea of Russian imperialism and at some level are swapping an ideal for your liberty. You might even be an innocent child, but if Vlad nukes America Uncle Sam will kill you for Vlad's choices. Like I said it is about the fate of nations and not about the blame of individuals, it is about collective choices, but not about individual blame, because everybody suffers or benefits from the choices. It is not fair and it is not just, which is why collective punishment has been outlawed.
Those people in that conservative county in Texas never asked to be shot, but a majority of them voted republican both state and federal and knew what they stood for. That is a consequence of a collective decision, one other jurisdictions don't make and don't suffer the consequences of unless someone smuggles a gun in illegally. That applies of other states and not just Canada, the majority of people in Texas chose to live like fools and are suffering a fool's fate, innocent or guilty. They do live in a democratic republic and elected Gregg Abbot and the rest of the clowns just 6 months ago and their answer is thoughts and prayers. I guess not enough people died yet, but give it time, they are not all bad and delusional in Texas, the democrats are only down by 5 seats in the state house, but until then people die. The fascist state government that they chose are encouraging, arming and coddling the domestic terrorist who committed the mall murder, he was one of theirs and it showed in the response and lack of a news conference.
DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
Thoughts and prayers, Abbott won't commit political suicide, and neither will the other republicans, they are locked in solid on this issue.
Joe: There is a sickness in Texas and that sickness starts at the top with Greg Abbott
112,031 views May 8, 2023 #Texas #GregAbbott #Politics
Following a mass shooting Saturday night at Allen Premium Outlets, northeast of Dallas, Texas that killed eight, a new Dallas Morning News editorial is urging the state's Gov. Greg Abbott to act on gun violence. The Morning Joe panel discusses the shooting and Abbott's recent remarks on how Texas is bolstering mental health funding.
Joe: There is a sickness in Texas and that sickness starts at the top with Greg Abbott
112,031 views May 8, 2023 #Texas #GregAbbott #Politics
Following a mass shooting Saturday night at Allen Premium Outlets, northeast of Dallas, Texas that killed eight, a new Dallas Morning News editorial is urging the state's Gov. Greg Abbott to act on gun violence. The Morning Joe panel discusses the shooting and Abbott's recent remarks on how Texas is bolstering mental health funding.
BudmanTX
Well-Known Member
Thoughts and prayers my ass, do something Abbott you rolling asshole......
you take money from programs that are thought to stop shit like this, and for what, to see more people dead.....
Look at our gun laws change them....NOW.......
you take money from programs that are thought to stop shit like this, and for what, to see more people dead.....
Look at our gun laws change them....NOW.......
DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
What, and commit political suicide! Not a chance, half the fucking state can die, and it won't make any difference, they arm, encourage, protect and coddle the guys like the one who mass murdered at the mall, he was one of theirs and it showed in the state's response. He was a right-wing terrorist, and the republicans depend on people like that and the hundreds of terrorist death threats that they make every single day, he is the kind of asshole election workers and public officials fear. He was also a 2nd amendment warrior and any changes to gun laws will see them come out of the woodwork and parade dressed and armed just like this guy including RWDS patches on their body armor as they mingle around the statehouse perfectly legal too.
I have noticed they are getting soft though and are not parading around the funerals of the victims armed to the teeth and calling them crises actors anymore or making as many death threats against their families. It must have been because of Alex Jones losing all that money, I guess, or maybe the victim's families are armed too. Will the gun he used in the murders go up for public auction like in Tennesse? Maybe the families can bid on it to keep as a memento, or the gun nuts buy it and can have it gold plated to use as some kind of trophy they can present to Abbott at the next NRA meeting. Texas is the new home of the NRA and I must say they are off to a flying start after NY wiped them out.
BudmanTX
Well-Known Member
Abbott has already done that, and the rest of Texas's gov.......yeah we got some crazy ones but we also have some good one......like the gun guy and ex police officer who actually ran around helping people during the shooting. Repugs and they're masters (fed soc, nra, religious extremist "such as the knights of malta" Texas right now has the house and senate going as well....maybe they can actually open there eyes, that sensible gun laws can be done with little to no effort......if they don't there is gonna be more.....and btw even thought people are saying he has a patch on him, there is no pictures to prove that i've checked...k
the fucking idiot was runnin around on white extremist groups online and the such
DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
You are only short 5 votes in the Texas house, but Abbott and Ken Paxton (FFS) were reelected about 6 months ago. I'm sorry the sensible people of the state have to suffer for the stupidity of the majority, we are no strangers to the social shock of mass murder where I live and a few years ago an asshole murdered 22 people here while dressed like a cop. He did it with smuggled American guns and was not even allowed to buy ammo here and others with an FAC are in legal shit for providing it to him.
I get pretty disgusted when I see stupid shit like this that is entirely preventable, these people were murdered by an asshole, but they were murdered for the power of republicans and profit of gun makers and the NRA grift.
Fogdog
Well-Known Member
lulz
a moral judgement on an entire nation makes as much sense as blaming the world for global warming. There is nothing actionable in your statement. You might as well shout at a tree. People can only be held accountable for what they do or things they control. Elections are won by convincing one person at a time.