Government

[ViRedd]

"the best thing about true capitalism is that each man has the ability to thrive, it's the closest we'll come to the goal of communism where there is no state because we regulate ourselves and each other naturally."

That's exactly right and very well put.

So far, I'm lovin' this thread. Matias ... excellent points and very well written.

Reprogrammed sez:

Its simple:
1. Get the people psyched.
2. Revolt.
3. Take over industry and means of production for the so called "good of the nation."
4. Propaganda galore.
5. Do what you want.

Yep, communism has been the promise and dictatorship the result.



Vi

 

[medicineman]

"the best thing about true capitalism is that each man has the ability to thrive, it's the closest we'll come to the goal of communism where there is no state because we regulate ourselves and each other naturally."

That's exactly right and very well put.

So far, I'm lovin' this thread. Matias ... excellent points and very well written.

Reprogrammed sez:

Its simple:
1. Get the people psyched.
2. Revolt.
3. Take over industry and means of production for the so called "good of the nation."
4. Propaganda galore.
5. Do what you want.

Yep, communism has been the promise and dictatorship the result.



Vi

Again I refer you to the father of communism Carl Marx: "Man may not be ready for communism for at least 200 years", as the greed factor is in force.:
"Last words are for fools who haven't said enough." Karl Marx...........................................The last capitalist we hang shall be the one who sold us the rope. Karl Marx
The ideas of the ruling class are in every epoch the ruling ideas, i.e., the class which is the ruling material force of society, is at the same time its ruling intellectual force.
Karl Marx
The oppressed are allowed once every few years to decide which particular representatives of the oppressing class are to represent and repress them.
Karl Marx

 

[Reprogammed]

And I'm simply trying to say communism can't work, not in 200 years, not in a millennia. It just can't. It was an idealistic notion that should've been discarded before given the opportunity to do the damage it has done.

Oh, and you left out one quote from ol' Karl (well known, but I don't think you'll find it by cruising brainyquote):
[After being explained what Marxism is...]
Marx: If that is what Marxism is, then I'm no Marxist.

The funny thing? If you ever find the letter he wa sent explaining the concept to him, you'll see almost every Marxist today and all the dictators were exactley what he was referring to.

Dankdude: ...okay...not sure where that came from. Unless you were trying to connect capitalism to Cuba's failure, which I've explained is non-sensical. Yes capitalism has run amok, I said that very thing earlier. But it also panders to my notion that all governments sound good on paper...now if only we could get the the ruling people to be as honest as emperors were about what our governments really are. for instance, American, our home of the beautiful, is simply an aristocracy, if not an oligarchy. We are governed by the rich, pure and simple. Doesn't matter if they had small beginnings, they all made money, or went to law school or college, etc. I don't care what people say, a person with just a high school diploma may not be as affluent as some $80/hour speechwriter, but he'll know what the people want or care about, and then FOLLOW THROUGH.

 

[Dankdude]

what's happening in our country is the result not of capitalism but of government interference in the process of capitalism. we have this federo-capitalism system and it's fake on every level.

the composting theory we talked about months ago.

when a business is collapsing the government thinks it should step in and save the jobs... the faulty business should be allowed to utterly fail sending those workers, technologies, leaders, etc. etc back into the system without interference.

by the same token, when a business is getting "too big" the government steps in and divides it up.

let it grow and it will come to a point where it has to divide on it's own, in an orderly and positive fashion.

the slice and dice philosophy is to blame for many of our high costs...

the best thing about true capitalism is that each man has the ability to thrive, it's the closest we'll come to the goal of communism where there is no state because we regulate ourselves and each other naturally.

.

I'm going to use this quote for some perspective.

 

[Dankdude]

7x, How full of shit are you? Let me count the ways.
Wages have gone down hill since the days of Ronald Reagan.
Before and shortly after Deregulation a carpenter would start out at $13.01 per hour, Now a carpenter would be lucky to get $8.50 an hour.
What has this happened, because government has bowed to the pressures of corporations who pay to put these assholes into office.
When you have corporations paying the tab for these politicians, they want a return on their investment.
Thus they dictate how the labor laws are to be set up, also another example if how Big Business has been running things is one has to look at the recent bankruptcy laws, The Laws were written by the credit card companies.
But when the law was enacted, they forgot to put in a provision to protect the borrower, the credit card and financing companies took advantage of this and put out predatory interest rates.
Capitalism used to be a good thing, but with out regulations you have a motive for profit that is so high that they go to any lengths to get those profits. (some not so legal) Why do they do this? Because they know that no one will call them on the carpet for it.
Personally I think that NAFTA, Free Trade is an experiment that has failed.
When Reagan and Bush Sr. were in office they touted NAFTA & Free Trade as something that would save this nation. Now we have jobs shipped overseas, all for a profit motive that could give a shit less about the American worker.

I hate to break it to you, but Trade is not the be all and end all of things.
Trade can bite us in the ass.
Look at Walamart. When Sam Walton was alive, would he have bought goods from China? Hell no he wouldn't.
He was about "Buy American" and single handedly save the Textile industry in the United States.
Once Sam Walton Died, his Heirs have sold his company out to China.... Mind you, when they started selling out to China, Walmart was one of the most successful companies in the United States (with out China's help)
China Enjoys not having to pay the tariffs that other countries have to pay.... You people simply do not understand that countries like China are out to destroy us with the use of TRADE.

 

[WillieNelson]

So you are trying to say that working hard for what you want is a bad thing. Capitalism is about free individual spirit. I think America is scrwed up for the system of freeloaders that is currently in place. Let mexicans move into to work, as long the asshole down the street who doesnt work because of his bullshit neck problem gets kicked off welfare first. Communism is fine as long as the handicapped and elderly are killed for being useless. Show me that on a sommunist ballot and I will vote.

 

[Reprogammed]

Wow....


WOW.


First off Willie, there's been a communist ballot for God knows how long. America does have a communist party, just too many smart people not to get behind it.

Killing old people for being useless? ...

Guy who posted above Willie: CALM DOWN. Nobody tried to dislodge your opinions on China. Yes, I do agree that China is becoming radically more powerful economically due to export, but you also have to realize that a lot of countries do this. It's their way of pulling themselves out of a terrible depression China went through not all that long ago, so I don't blame them.

So go ahead and cold shoulder anyone who doesn't "Buy American", but it's business. Same reason Hollywood keeps remaking classic movies into crap. It's just what sells.

 

[Dankdude]

no willie that is not what I said at all.
But before I continue, let me ask one thing.
If Someone pulled on your shoulders, would there be a loud pop as your head exited your ass???
What I am saying is that Wages have gone down hill....
Close the fucking border and then discuss what to do with the illegals.

Dude, I started working when I was 15 years old. That job was construction.
Before I moved on to driving truck, (I can no longer drive truck for a living because of 3 ruptured disks in my lower back) I worked my way up to being a master carpenter. Do you expect me to go to work doing carpentry for $8.50 an hour??? A rate of pay that Unskilled Illegal Mexican Nationals are getting?
Hell I may even consider doing that work for that rate of pay if the market for that kind of work wasn't sewn up by the Illegals. It's high time that the corporations quit getting off cheap.

Communism is fine as long as the handicapped and elderly are killed for being useless.

This is an attitude that needs to be nipped in the bud. (that was the attitude that the Nazi's had during WWII) and you are a piece of shit for saying it. (BTW, I take care of my 71 year old mother who worked since she was 14 until she was 63... so how useless was she???)
Next time please read the literal meaning of a post and not between the lines. It is rather obvious that you listen to too much talk radio.
It's about Wages, that's what I'm talking about.... BTW, I'm willing to bet that I have worked a hell of a lot harder in my lifetime than you have or you wouldn't be talking out your ass.
I've never had a job setting behind a desk.
All I'm saying is a fair wage for work and quit shipping our jobs out of the country.

 

[WillieNelson]

It is rather obvious that you listen to too much talk radio.
It's about Wages, that's what I'm talking about.... BTW, I'm willing to bet that I have worked a hell of a lot harder in my lifetime than you have or you wouldn't be talking out your ass.
I've never had a job setting behind a desk.
All I'm saying is a fair wage for work and quit shipping our jobs out of the country.

I have worked in construction since a was 15 and digging holes with a shovel for $4 an hour on side jobs. I have busted my ass for years and never once had a desk job. I also never listen to talk radio. For true communism to work productivly, you would need to cut the dead weight. I can see the cloaked councils chanting, "for the good of the union the weak will be culled." I hate communism, but I hate freeloading fucks a lot more. Isn't the goal of this site to help people become self suporitive. And I am sorry to hear about your back problems, instead of bitching, learn to fucking type and get one of those almighty desk jobs you seem to loathe. I have done well for myself through hard work and working through pain. I have lost a kidney and part of my vision and that never stopped me from taking care of myself and my family. Some old geiser that smoked cigareretts and is on medicaid for their own poor health choices, bullshit! If they can't get a job and have no family to take care of them, send them out to pasture. I hate supporting people perfectly capable of working that are too lazy to improve their lives. A lifelong friend of mine lost the use of his legs when we were kids and still does more every day than most able bodied people. My neighbor with the neck problem? Take away his SS check and that asshole will find out he can work the day he runs out of food(of whiskey) and if not. Good riddance!

 

[7xstall]

7x, How full of shit are you? Let me count the ways.
Wages have gone down hill since the days of Ronald Reagan.
Before and shortly after Deregulation a carpenter would start out at $13.01 per hour, Now a carpenter would be lucky to get $8.50 an hour.
What has this happened, because government has bowed to the pressures of corporations who pay to put these assholes into office.
When you have corporations paying the tab for these politicians, they want a return on their investment.
Thus they dictate how the labor laws are to be set up, also another example if how Big Business has been running things is one has to look at the recent bankruptcy laws, The Laws were written by the credit card companies.
But when the law was enacted, they forgot to put in a provision to protect the borrower, the credit card and financing companies took advantage of this and put out predatory interest rates.
Capitalism used to be a good thing, but with out regulations you have a motive for profit that is so high that they go to any lengths to get those profits. (some not so legal) Why do they do this? Because they know that no one will call them on the carpet for it.
Personally I think that NAFTA, Free Trade is an experiment that has failed.
When Reagan and Bush Sr. were in office they touted NAFTA & Free Trade as something that would save this nation. Now we have jobs shipped overseas, all for a profit motive that could give a shit less about the American worker.

I hate to break it to you, but Trade is not the be all and end all of things.
Trade can bite us in the ass.
Look at Walamart. When Sam Walton was alive, would he have bought goods from China? Hell no he wouldn't.
He was about "Buy American" and single handedly save the Textile industry in the United States.
Once Sam Walton Died, his Heirs have sold his company out to China.... Mind you, when they started selling out to China, Walmart was one of the most successful companies in the United States (with out China's help)
China Enjoys not having to pay the tariffs that other countries have to pay.... You people simply do not understand that countries like China are out to destroy us with the use of TRADE.

actually, i've read most of "Unrestricted Warfare" and i know that's their strategy.

like i said, it's federo-capitalism we're dealing with, not real capitalism. real trade, cooperative, natural trade is the be all and end all of all the political BS ever contrived.


why did the feds take it upon themselves to meddle in labor laws in the first place? that's a state issue at most.

well, the unions needed someone to bully the companies into hiring them...thanks feds. now, the companies want to bully the unions out...thanks feds....

the federal government is way out of bounds but people still go crying to it every chance they get.

why are the feds writing bankruptcy laws, a completely civil matter if ever there was one? the irresponsible consumers spent too much money they didn't have and needed someone to bully the banks into making it easier for them to get out of their moral and ethical responsibility to pay them back...thanks feds. well, now the banks want the irresponsible consumers to pay and who's going to bully them into this??? thanks feds.



you want the feds to make it illegal to send jobs to places where it's cheaper? see if you can guess what's next...








.

 

[medicineman]

you want the feds to make it illegal to send jobs to places where it's cheaper? see if you can guess what's next...What? Nothing would surprise me. The American worker has been taking it up the kazoo for years. the unions and the corporations both are sticking their dicks in him. Real wages have gone down every year since,.......... well I don't know the exact date, but definently since the Bush dynasty came to town. What could we have done to make the Waltons more conscienceable, who knows? I guess 100 million was not enough. You see there are all these "Idea" people (Usually asshole lawyers) that come to rich people and tell them how to make more money for a fee. As in, if you buy your goods in china and have them shipped over you can triple your profits. All this without a care in the world about the consequences. I believe I must Bow to VI on this premis, Greed is a human condition and it aint goin away. That having been said, I see a need for ever increasing unionization of the work force, clean up the unions and have an employee based union. Carpenters should not have to work for 8.50 an hour while the general contractor is buying an island in the hebrides. Auto mechanics should not work for 8.50 an hour while the garage is charging 80.00. I was a carpenterr and a mechanic so I know of what I speak. Garages have been lowering the wages of mechanics for years while raising prices. When I first started out, I got 50% of the labor and 50% of the profit on parts, When I quit 15 years ago, they had cut it to 40% on labor and 0% on parts. Starting price of labor 45.00 an hr, Now 90.00 an hr. I heard they've cut the labor to 25%, so mechanics are making far less now than 20 years ago and that doesn't even account for inflation. Carpenters when I was one in the 70s was 17.50 + 1.00 an hour vacation and 1.50 per hr. retirement, now it's 8.00-10.00 and no benefits. Illegals are swarming the labor market and the corporations are lovin it. We're creating a whole new class of people, the disenfranchised American worker, Panama is looking better all the time.

 

[7xstall]

walmart is destroying itself, just walk in one and you'll see it. what those kids are doing is going to cost them a proud legacy and leave them as nothing but a footnote in the history of failed businesses in the USA.

i agree, greed is here to stay but we need to stop rewarding it so much. we don't inconvenience ourselves with principals when walmart has what we want, even if it is made in china. we didn't steer clear of the middle east oil companies after 9/11. we don't demand that our builders have only legal workers when we buy houses. no one tells their lawn man to fire his non-english speaking employees or we'll cut our own grass...

there's a lot we Could do about it, but we don't.




.

 

[Gymshoes]

well to me this is it...i think that the best government we can have as a whole is comunizm....

Communism?
Pure idealistic rubbish, and it doesn't work anyway.

 

[medicineman]

walmart is destroying itself, just walk in one and you'll see it. what those kids are doing is going to cost them a proud legacy and leave them as nothing but a footnote in the history of failed businesses in the USA.

i agree, greed is here to stay but we need to stop rewarding it so much. we don't inconvenience ourselves with principals when walmart has what we want, even if it is made in china. we didn't steer clear of the middle east oil companies after 9/11. we don't demand that our builders have only legal workers when we buy houses. no one tells their lawn man to fire his non-english speaking employees or we'll cut our own grass...

there's a lot we Could do about it, but we don't.




.

You are right. I have the neighbors teenager, (Mexican) son do mine, he does a bang up job, a real hard worker. I could do mine but My arthritus pretty much prevents that. As far as the rest, yeah I'm guilty of shopping walmart and I buy chevron gas, with my revenue status, wall mart is all I can afford. So what are we to do? Our society is being sold to the highest bidder every day. New laws and signing statements take away our rights bit by bit, the average wage is slipping behind inflation and us poor buggers on fixed incomes take it up the kazoo every day. The police are getting more agressive and the courts are backing them up. I see a real possibility of leaving the country where I was born and grew up loving. I've checked a few sites and know one thing, once you commit, there's no coming back, scary as hell.

 

[WillieNelson]

Stop the inflation machine. Buy gold and silver!

 

[7xstall]

Stop the inflation machine. Buy gold and silver!

might want to wait for the record high prices to settle down a bit there Willie!

don't worry though, prices will come down when we get deep into a recession, they always do, and it's funny that no one has the $$ to buy it then except those who are already very wealthy. they usually buy it on credit, then when prices rebound, they build banks and sell their own credit. that's how the federal government got so rich and powerful, maybe we should try it.

better watch out though, all it takes is a stroke of the pen and gold will become illegal to own, just like the good ole days under one of history's favorite presidents...






.

 

[WillieNelson]

Historically, the price of silver isn't record level. Adding inflation and adjusting for markets and blah blah blah it should be at over $50. I don't support it as a get rich quick scheme, but its perfect for an inflation hedge.

 

[Dankdude]

Stop the inflation machine. Buy gold and silver!

Nope Gold and silver are artificially jacked up too.
Gold and Silver prices are an indicator of inflation.

 

[WillieNelson]

Nope Gold and silver are artificially jacked up too.
Gold and Silver prices are an indicator of inflation.

With the GW Bush machine outing the world bank president(inflation was being exposed), its is just a matter of time before inflation slaps us in the mouth. Maybe gas prices aren't artifically high, but other nations know the value of the dollar. Worthlesss!

 

[Wavels]

^^^^


Hey Willie, if the greenback is "worthless" as you erroneously claim, why are the Chinese buying them up in record numbers? They are huge buyers of US Treasury bonds, notes and bills...these are dollar denominated....