Calcium Carbonate & CaCO3

[Week4@inCharge]

Jeromy did another podcast with Garden Talk Mr Grow it and in a section he mentions that Calcium carbonate (in water) potential problem of it binding with the plants calcium.

 

[Reap911]

In soil it breaks down over time becoming available to the plants. It's also a liming agent that is used to offset acidity, raise the pH and maintain the pH. You don't want it washing out too quickly. It's not like hydro where you need a water soluble form that's immediately available to the plant. If you're looking for a fast acting form of calcium there are better options like calcium chloride, calcium nitrate, etc... but not organic. Organic would be WSC easily made from eggshells and vinegar.

If you're building a soil there should be plenty of calcium if you're using any bone meal, shellfish meal, etc... I wouldn't worry too much about the solubility of calcium carbonate.

Do you feed your WSC straight into the soil? At what amounts?

I use as a foliar once every 2 weeks.

 

[xtsho]

Do you feed your WSC straight into the soil? At what amounts?

I use as a foliar once every 2 weeks.

I've only used it as a foliar. But I don't use it on cannabis anymore as any decent soil blend plus basic nutrients is going to supply all the calcium cannabis needs. I was using it on tomatoes to prevent BER but after further research I found that the best method for supplying calcium is through the roots. Then there is the fact that too much calcium will lock out other nutrients which is why you see so many people feeding calmag unecessarily every watering having issues.

I reuse my soil so I've just started powdering the eggshells and adding them when I reammend the soil. They might take awhile to break down but since my soil is constantly being reused there is always going to be some calcium available after a couple of cycles.

 

[Week4@inCharge]

I've only used it as a foliar. But I don't use it on cannabis anymore as any decent soil blend plus basic nutrients is going to supply all the calcium cannabis needs. I was using it on tomatoes to prevent BER but after further research I found that the best method for supplying calcium is through the roots. Then there is the fact that too much calcium will lock out other nutrients which is why you see so many people feeding calmag unecessarily every watering having issues.

I reuse my soil so I've just started powdering the eggshells and adding them when I reammend the soil. They might take awhile to break down but since my soil is constantly being reused there is always going to be some calcium available after a couple of cycles.

A lot of proprietary amendments do have a significant amounts of calcium. If your adding more calcium on top of that via (hard tap water and cal mag) then like you already mentioned. Calcium Toxicity. I'm going through some growing pains with this and am now experimenting with (just watering with) RO water at the moment.

 

[waktoo]

A lot of proprietary amendments do have a significant amounts of calcium. If your adding more calcium on top of that via (hard tap water and cal mag) then like you already mentioned. Calcium Toxicity. I'm going through some growing pains with this and am now experimenting with (just watering with) RO water at the moment.

Have you had your water tested?

Are you using well, or municipal water?

 

[Week4@inCharge]

Have you had your water tested?

Are you using well, or municipal water?

Most of our h2o comes from a ground water basin here in the desert. (Hardness (as CaCO3), mg/L 7.6-320 (120) <---- this is my calcium make up from the local water report. My tap water is always up there in the 300's plus. To answer your question , no I have never sent my water out to get tested, I'm solely going off what my ec meter and local water tests say/report.

 

[waktoo]

Most of our h2o comes from a ground water basin here in the desert. (Hardness (as CaCO3), mg/L 7.6-320 (120) <---- this is my calcium make up from the local water report. My tap water is always up there in the 300's plus. To answer your question , no I have never sent my water out to get tested, I'm solely going off what my ec meter and local water tests say/report.

Great. Link to your local water report?

 

[Week4@inCharge]

Great. Link to your local water report?

Coachella Valley Water

Archive Center • Annual Review

www.cvwd.org

 

[waktoo]

Coachella Valley Water

Archive Center • Annual Review

www.cvwd.org

That report doesn't contain the testing parameter I'm looking for (alkalinity). It's meant for human consumption, not agricultural application.

I'm kinda busy right now, but would you mind if I send you a PM sometime in the next few days?

 

[Week4@inCharge]

That report doesn't contain the testing parameter I'm looking for (alkalinity). It's meant for human consumption, not agricultural application.

I'm kinda busy right now, but would you mind if I send you a PM sometime in the next few days?

Wouldn't mind at all. I watched Jeremy briefly trying to explain the difference (that YouTube link I posted above) on the difference of alkalinity and pH....

 

[waktoo]

Wouldn't mind at all. I watched Jeremy briefly trying to explain the difference (that YouTube link I posted above) on the difference of alkalinity and pH....

I was going to review that video to see where you might be coming from, but I'm not willing to spend an hour+ of my time to do so.

Can you offer a time stamp of where I might begin?

 

[Week4@inCharge]

I was going to review that video to see where you might be coming from, but I'm not willing to spend an hour+ of my time to do so.

Can you offer a time stamp of where I might begin?

oh man...an hour of Jeremy? I could listen to this guy all day, wealth of knowledge. Anyways, Its timed stamped for ya, look for "pH in living soil"

 

[waktoo]

oh man...an hour of Jeremy? I could listen to this guy all day, wealth of knowledge. Anyways, Its timed stamped for ya, look for "pH in living soil"

Thanks. I'll have a look see and hit you up in a few days.

 

[PadawanWarrior]

I apply Langbeinite every 2-4 weeks, depending on the size of the plant. I always apply it when I see the light green leaves synonymous with Mg deficiencies (that are often confused with N deficiency). Problem gets corrected immediately. Top dressing with Langbeinite has allowed me to forgo my Epsom Salt foliar entirely!

Hey Kratos, how much langbeinite do you use for topdressing? Say for a 15 gal pot?

 

[kratos015]

Hey Kratos, how much langbeinite do you use for topdressing? Say for a 15 gal pot?

Back of the Langbeinite bag says 1-2tsp per gallon of soil, once a month. So, I go with 0.5-1tsp per gallon of soil every 2 weeks. Make sure to water it in immediately after applying.

 

[PadawanWarrior]

Back of the Langbeinite bag says 1-2tsp per gallon of soil, once a month. So, I go with 0.5-1tsp per gallon of soil every 2 weeks. Make sure to water it in immediately after applying.

Cool. I'be been adding a little to whatever fertilizer I've been using. I also just got some potassium sulfate so I'm gonna start experimenting with that too.

There was one time that I had a K deficiency so I diluted some Langbeinite in water and was giving it to the plants. It seemed to get a little better and then the K deficiency got worse and worse the more I used. So I was guessing it was too much Mg locking out the K. I don't know for sure, but that's what I figured so I thought this potassium sulfate might work better sometimes. I don't have anything I need the pots right now, but I'm gonna be messing with the soil over the summer, so it's ready for next fall.

I've mixed the Langbeinite in water before too. It mostly dissolves after a bit, but there is a little sediment.

Thanks for the response Kratos.

 

[pahpah-cee]

This thread is sounding too relevant to issues I’ve been experiencing. Would someone that knows what they’re talking about take a look at my water report (it’s from 2021 but I can’t find anything more recent). I’m in the MWD zone.

 

[kratos015]

This thread is sounding too relevant to issues I’ve been experiencing. Would someone that knows what they’re talking about take a look at my water report (it’s from 2021 but I can’t find anything more recent). I’m in the MWD zone.

First of all, thank you for posting the screenshots of the reports. Super helpful for those of us willing to help with diagnosing issues. Not going to call myself an "expert" by any means, just someone that has experienced issues with this situation in the past. A few things stick out to me. Feel free to read below if you'd like, but ultimately the "too long; didn't read" would be to get yourself some Langbeinite and see if it corrects your issues. After this grow, build a new soil and omit the liming agents (Dolomite Lime, Oyster Shell Flour, etc) and use your water as the liming agent instead.


As for the "why":

The things we're most concerned about are "hardness (ppm)", and "pH". Your water report tells us that your pH range is between 8.0-8.5 on average (numbers rounded up and down to 1 decimal point).

It also tells us the "hardness" in ppms is between 56-272, which is manageable. Well water is typically in the 350-450 range, meaning it is more difficult to change the pH and also results in more salt build ups. Remember, Calcium Carbonate is technically a "salt".

The hardness of your water, combined with your water's pH tells me that your water source has limestone (aka Dolomite Lime) of some sort near it. Meaning, your water is effectively liquid Dolomite Lime and you are "liming" your soil with every watering.

I'm also noticing that your water has more K and Mg than most water reports show. And the big thing worth mentioning is your water's sulfate levels, specifically the note that states "Runoff/leeching from natural deposits; industrial wastes".

So pretty much, your water source is located near Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate), Limestone (Calcium Carbonate), Epsom Salts (Magnesium Sulfate), Potassium Sulfate, or any combination of the 4. I'm spitballing this based on the levels of K, Mg, Ca, and Sulfate (SO4) in your water report. I'm also spitballing this based on the 1000ppm of total dissolved solids (TDS) in the water report, as well as the "leeching from natural deposits" note in the report. "Dissolved solids" refer to any minerals, salts, metals, cations or anions dissolved in water."

So, pretty much, by using your water from tap, the result is a salt build up from any one (or a combination) of the 4 aforementioned salts above. By using your water, what is happening is that whatever "total dissolved solids" listed above that are not being absorbed by your plants, are clumping together over time, binding together and forming salt build ups that result in excessive alkalinity with your pH, while also resulting in lockouts of nutrients. This can be confirmed by noting whether or not your fabric pots (if you're using them) have scaling on them or not, like you'd see on a sink faucet.

And, to add insult to injury, because your water is effectively "liquid Dolomite Lime", you are "liming" your soil with every watering.

By top dressing with Langbeinite on a bi-weekly basis, at half the recommended dosage on the box, the Sulfate in the Langbeinite should break apart the salts that are building up in your soils as a result of your tap water. Also, by omitting Dolomite Lime/OSF from the new soil you build, you can work with your water instead of against it, using your water as a liming agent.

This report here has loads of information to back up my claims, should you wish to read it, which I highly recommend doing so in order to gain more insight and knowledge to what is going on with your own eyes and mind, instead of listening to me or anyone else since I'm no expert

Every time the water in your soil evaporates, the salts in the form of total dissolved solids will eventually build up over time due to them not running off with your water. They eventually clump together and form salt crystals in your soil, causing issues. This always tends to manifest itself around week 2-3 of flower, because the average veg time is 4-6 weeks, meaning that the total dissolved solids have had 6-8 weeks to form salt crystals that will cause the issues you are likely experiencing.

Sorry for the wall of text, but I prefer to fully explain my claims as much as possible as opposed to saying things without providing any context.

All the best, and hope you get things fixed!

 

[Week4@inCharge]

First of all, thank you for posting the screenshots of the reports. Super helpful for those of us willing to help with diagnosing issues. Not going to call myself an "expert" by any means, just someone that has experienced issues with this situation in the past. A few things stick out to me. Feel free to read below if you'd like, but ultimately the "too long; didn't read" would be to get yourself some Langbeinite and see if it corrects your issues. After this grow, build a new soil and omit the liming agents (Dolomite Lime, Oyster Shell Flour, etc) and use your water as the liming agent instead.


As for the "why":

The things we're most concerned about are "hardness (ppm)", and "pH". Your water report tells us that your pH range is between 8.0-8.5 on average (numbers rounded up and down to 1 decimal point).

It also tells us the "hardness" in ppms is between 56-272, which is manageable. Well water is typically in the 350-450 range, meaning it is more difficult to change the pH and also results in more salt build ups. Remember, Calcium Carbonate is technically a "salt".

The hardness of your water, combined with your water's pH tells me that your water source has limestone (aka Dolomite Lime) of some sort near it. Meaning, your water is effectively liquid Dolomite Lime and you are "liming" your soil with every watering.

I'm also noticing that your water has more K and Mg than most water reports show. And the big thing worth mentioning is your water's sulfate levels, specifically the note that states "Runoff/leeching from natural deposits; industrial wastes".

So pretty much, your water source is located near Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate), Limestone (Calcium Carbonate), Epsom Salts (Magnesium Sulfate), Potassium Sulfate, or any combination of the 4. I'm spitballing this based on the levels of K, Mg, Ca, and Sulfate (SO4) in your water report. I'm also spitballing this based on the 1000ppm of total dissolved solids (TDS) in the water report, as well as the "leeching from natural deposits" note in the report. "Dissolved solids" refer to any minerals, salts, metals, cations or anions dissolved in water."

So, pretty much, by using your water from tap, the result is a salt build up from any one (or a combination) of the 4 aforementioned salts above. By using your water, what is happening is that whatever "total dissolved solids" listed above that are not being absorbed by your plants, are clumping together over time, binding together and forming salt build ups that result in excessive alkalinity with your pH, while also resulting in lockouts of nutrients. This can be confirmed by noting whether or not your fabric pots (if you're using them) have scaling on them or not, like you'd see on a sink faucet.

And, to add insult to injury, because your water is effectively "liquid Dolomite Lime", you are "liming" your soil with every watering.

By top dressing with Langbeinite on a bi-weekly basis, at half the recommended dosage on the box, the Sulfate in the Langbeinite should break apart the salts that are building up in your soils as a result of your tap water. Also, by omitting Dolomite Lime/OSF from the new soil you build, you can work with your water instead of against it, using your water as a liming agent.

This report here has loads of information to back up my claims, should you wish to read it, which I highly recommend doing so in order to gain more insight and knowledge to what is going on with your own eyes and mind, instead of listening to me or anyone else since I'm no expert

Every time the water in your soil evaporates, the salts in the form of total dissolved solids will eventually build up over time due to them not running off with your water. They eventually clump together and form salt crystals in your soil, causing issues. This always tends to manifest itself around week 2-3 of flower, because the average veg time is 4-6 weeks, meaning that the total dissolved solids have had 6-8 weeks to form salt crystals that will cause the issues you are likely experiencing.

Sorry for the wall of text, but I prefer to fully explain my claims as much as possible as opposed to saying things without providing any context.

All the best, and hope you get things fixed!

Great explanation, I'm gonna have to look into this langbeinite. I'd like to add that maybe looking into an RO Filtering system might help. I like the idea of the salts being broken down with this langbeinite, quick question about that, once it gets broken down where does it go? Or is it broken down into a lesser molecule where it's not a salt anymore?

 

[kratos015]

Great explanation, I'm gonna have to look into this langbeinite. I'd like to add that maybe looking into an RO Filtering system might help. I like the idea of the salts being broken down with this langbeinite, quick question about that, once it gets broken down where does it go? Or is it broken down into a lesser molecule where it's not a salt anymore?

Exactly this. Whatever doesn't get absorbed by the plants will get caught in the runoff of the water upon watering.

RO water will certainly work. But, I prefer using Langbeinite because it is much cheaper in the long run, as it allows one to use the water in their favor by working with the water instead of against it.

A 50lb bag of Langbeinite can be had for $80-$100 on Amazon and will last the average grower a lifetime, where as a legit RO system costs $300+ and results in tons of wasted water.

I recommend reading the article that I linked to in my last post, it'll provide much more insight and explanation than I could as to why Langbeinite works as well as it does.

Regards.