i’ll not buy another led until..

[Horselover fat]

you got a fan pointing at it?

No. The 28.5cm*44cm and few mm thick aluminium boards are all that's needed. Yes, they take up a lot of area, but I'm fine with it.

 

[cobshopgrow]

i’m really not trying to dispute that smds are not dense as cobs. of course they are not. just saying on some of these boards smd replacement is super close and very dense and we went over this and i know for you its a given but without altering the pcb dimensions just cramming more diodes will not make much of a difference.

huge pin heatsinks are definitely less convenient than the ones being used on the bar types today, of course. but the airflow between the fins and the total surface area are so superior that it can cool a cob with that density, i wonder how well it’d work out for pcb board used in the bar designs. plus if i have to hang a fan over the fixture and lose headspace i’d really prefer a pin type heatsink protruding from the sides of the bars to catch the air i pull in from the bottom of tent with the exhaust fan.

i’ve done both pcbs and cobs as a diy and while a not actively cooled cob at the same wattage and heatsink burned out on me, pcb kept working but got scalding hot on the heatsink. so yeah less density helps with better heat transfer and dissipation and i use cpu thermal paste on these heatsinks after drilling holes for the led holders and leveling the surface with very fine sandpaper for cobs and pcbs so the heat transfer is pretty much at its best.

your eb3s probably do run cool to the touch on a relatively small heatsink especially when underdriven because of the led replacement and low current going through it but thats really not the story for many fixtures i’ve seen. really crammed in diodes. plus 50C on the heatsink as seen on migros video is medically scalding hot temperatures. i just expect better or at least not misinformation like it runs cool to the touch.. if i point a fan at it. that if i point a fan at it part is somehow a given for some where i find it totally idiotic when one of the selling points for most of these lights are “no moving parts”.

yeah no moving parts in the box but you gotta have moving parts to have them work correctly. brilliant.

i dont have any led design at hand, there will be some running their leds too hard to claim high wattage numbers.
in the end everybody have to decide on his own how cool he want his leds.
i did used lm301b based boards without any heatsinks before i used EB3s, but same concecpt driven ultra low, temp wasnt any issue, low 30s C.
have to say that in both cases it had been cheaper to increase the diode count then to buy heatsinks.
those huge pinned heatsinks are great, but i see them more usefull on items who really produce a lot heat on a small area.
like a cpu, on 5x5mm a 100W is something which needs attention and even copper makes some sense for direct contact to the cpu die.
or of course, cobs are also more demanding then mid powers, no question.

its just youre asking especially for more heatsinking on midpowers where other concepts will be a better use of the money probably.
you mentioned valid points here, while you have to consider that youre a led nerd or a custom car driver.
so you prob have to build your own anyway or modify existing stuff, like buy a few cheap fixtures and underdrive them.

 

[crimsonecho]

i dont have any led design at hand, there will be some running their leds too hard to claim high wattage numbers.
in the end everybody have to decide on his own how cool he want his leds.
i did used lm301b based boards without any heatsinks before i used EB3s, but same concecpt driven ultra low, temp wasnt any issue, low 30s C.
have to say that in both cases it had been cheaper to increase the diode count then to buy heatsinks.
those huge pinned heatsinks are great, but i see them more usefull on items who really produce a lot heat on a small area.
like a cpu, on 5x5mm a 100W is something which needs attention and even copper makes some sense for direct contact to the cpu die.
or of course, cobs are also more demanding then mid powers, no question.

its just youre asking especially for more heatsinking on midpowers where other concepts will be a better use of the money probably.
you mentioned valid points here, while you have to consider that youre a led nerd or a custom car driver.
so you prob have to build your own anyway or modify existing stuff, like buy a few cheap fixtures and underdrive them.

definitely underdriving them helps immensely. i cant run a cob without an heatsink even underdriven but with pcbs its possible. as for me asking specifically for bigger heatsinks, i think the poll question was a bit off on that point. maybe i should have worded it as better thermal management but also as i mentioned wouldnt a heatsink with fins protruding between the bars catching the updraft better to dissipate heat more effectively without using additional fans would work better than the ones used on these bars in your opinion?

other than that sure i’ve seen many bar type pcbs when i was building my diy they were rated for super low wattages, for my growing purposes anyway, and couldnt wrap my head around the fact how these companies were building these high wattage bars with proper thermal management and then i realized that they werent for the most part lol. sure the diodes will not burnout probably if thats proper thermal management for some, ok, i can live with that. however it is not enough for me and i think the poll even with a misworded or incomplete question shows that some other people share this concern too.

in the end diy really reigns supreme but i’d be really happy to see those heatsink temps dropped down to mid 30s as with the boards you’ve used instead of shitty products with diodes crammed onto pcbs screwed on some shitty ass finless heatsinks, overdriven and running hot as a mofo. in some cases dangerously hot.

also somehow the blame has shifted towards competitive market in some peoples minds rather than shitty designs and a lust for more profits on the manufacturing side of things and while i do think competitive market is out there its just a matter of shifting the buying habits of the customers. again blurples comes to mind, people stopped buying them and they went away.

 

[Moist.Farms]

Well all i can say is this thread has convinced me to buy 1000w draw LEDs as my next lights and just run them at 6-700w.

 

[crimsonecho]

Well all i can say is this thread has convinced me to buy 1000w draw LEDs as my next lights and just run them at 6-700w.

thats another option definitely wish that 1000w was rated as 600w because that is closer to the optimal wattage for most 1000w fixtures in thermal management aspects of things imo.

 

[cobshopgrow]

i cant really comment on the usual extrusion used on the bar leds sold as i am not even using these.
there are diferences, some use beefier heatsinks some dont, we cant throw them all together.
basically i think these extrusions arent bad, prob way cheaper to manufactor then pinheaded ones (do they need to be CNCed?, guess so).
also the pinheaded ones are easy to bend, theyre of course great passive heatsinks but i still dont see them as needed for mid powers.

it had been mentioned, airflow, thats makes not only a few degree and we need airflow and airexchange anyway for the plants.
i always do my temp tests without airflow, for a worst case scenario and then have airflow all the time anyway when used and airflow is really quite cheap compared to more heatsinking.

we will see what the future will bring.
a fixture claiming a higher wattage will always sell better.
but most lights these days have dimmers,

 

[crimsonecho]

i cant really comment on the usual extrusion used on the bar leds sold as i am not even using these.
there are diferences, some use beefier heatsinks some dont, we cant throw them all together.
basically i think these extrusions arent bad, prob way cheaper to manufactor then pinheaded ones (do they need to be CNCed?, guess so).
also the pinheaded ones are easy to bend, theyre of course great passive heatsinks but i still dont see them as needed for mid powers.

it had been mentioned, airflow, thats makes not only a few degree and we need airflow and airexchange anyway for the plants.
i always do my temp tests without airflow, for a worst case scenario and then have airflow all the time anyway when used and airflow is really quite cheap compared to more heatsinking.

we will see what the future will bring.
a fixture claiming a higher wattage will always sell better.
but most lights these days have dimmers,

airflow is definitely needed and air exchange too but people hanging fans on top of their fixtures feels like its robbing growers from more vertical space than using pinhead heatsinks for example. there is much horizontal space between the bars which can be better utilized imo at least, just to catch the updraft the exhaust fan creates.

in either case i see your points and i agree with them just saying these led fixtures should be running cooler in general and there are many ways to achieve that and a middle ground can be found definitely but i dont think itll happen when people say my mars or whatever runs cool to the touch when it runs scalding hot without a dedicated fan blowing on them at 100%. because other people, new growers and people switching to leds from hids etc believe this shit.

 

[cobshopgrow]

regarding the vertical space, i do use 140mm pc fans on top of my fixture.
that cost me maybe a good 3cm the beefy pinheaded heatsinks ive used for cobs hab been way taller.

the mars you are refering to really runs a bit hot to what people report.
i think its their cheapest light in the lineup, the driver isnt really that efficient and mounted on top of a thin sheet aluminium, prob also not that many leds had been used due to cost restrictions, some factors got togehter.
thats clearly not the light you should buy, but am sure you can find something better fitting for you, lots options out there.

 

[lusidghost]

airflow is definitely needed and air exchange too but people hanging fans on top of their fixtures feels like its robbing growers from more vertical space than using pinhead heatsinks for example. there is much horizontal space between the bars which can be better utilized imo at least, just to catch the updraft the exhaust fan creates.

I have my fans hanging beside my lights. It seems to work about the same.

 

[cobshopgrow]

forgot, one of rocket souls favorites is or was the fotop 800 if i am right.
thats easy to build and easy to run low.
you may will be surpirsed.
problem here is that they a bit outdated led wise and i think there is no recent replacement.

 

[crimsonecho]

I have my fans hanging beside my lights. It seems to work about the same.

sure but it wouldnt work in a 4x4 tent with a 4x4 fixture because its kinda like wall to wall. plus thats another moving part added which can fail.

forgot, one of rocket souls favorites is or was the fotop 800 if i am right.
thats easy to build and easy to run low.
you may will be surpirsed.
problem here is that they a bit outdated led wise and i think there is no recent replacement.

havent seen them around i dont live in the states so the options are a little different over here. actually dedicated horticultural leds are pretty much nonexistent around here thats why i went with a cree cxb1830 90cri vivid spectrum for my prior build for example. after checking out the spectrums of different cobs those seemed like the best for growing under.

 

[lusidghost]

sure but it wouldnt work in a 4x4 tent with a 4x4 fixture because its kinda like wall to wall. plus thats another moving part added which can fail.

This is a fair point. I'm probably going to have to change my setup once I upgrade my lights.

 

[cobshopgrow]

oh, the fotops are from china, but well, "only" using lm561c or such.
i mean i am sure you know the usual DIY offers from china, if thats any option to you.
shipping just a few bare boards is way cheaper then to ship a whole fixture.
am myself very happy with the robustness of the blux strips so myself prob gonna stick to this concept, but it more work to mount.
depneding on where you are, the boards horseloverfat used could be a option too for you.

 

[crimsonecho]

This is a fair point. I'm probably going to have to change my setup once I upgrade my lights.

which fixture youre thinking of buying as your new lights? what kind of a setup are you gonna go with?

 

[crimsonecho]

oh, the fotops are from china, but well, "only" using lm561c or such.
i mean i am sure you know the usual DIY offers from china, if thats any option to you.
shipping just a few bare boards is way cheaper then to ship a whole fixture.
am myself very happy with the robustness of the blux strips so myself prob gonna stick to this concept, but it more work to mount.
depneding on where you are, the boards horseloverfat used could be a option too for you.

what i hate about the diy is hand drilling the aluminium heatsinks its just too much work and have to be incredibly precise or the heatsink goes to trash. very hard work even with the drilling oil and shit. diy fixtures definitely cant be topped both in quality and price but really too much work and i just dont have the energy. maybe in a couple of years if plug and play doesnt get significantly better

 

[lusidghost]

which fixture youre thinking of buying as your new lights? what kind of a setup are you gonna go with?

I'm probably going to buy four of these.

Tarantula Vulcan 2 Channel Spectrum 8 Panel Commercial LED Fixture

Tarantula Vulcan 2 Channel Spectrum 8 Panel Commercial LED Fixture - Grand Master LEDs - IP66 Waterproof - 720 Watts - 5 x 5 Flowering Footprint - 5 Year Warranty

grandmasterleds.com

 

[crimsonecho]

I'm probably going to buy four of these.

Tarantula Vulcan 2 Channel Spectrum 8 Panel Commercial LED Fixture

Tarantula Vulcan 2 Channel Spectrum 8 Panel Commercial LED Fixture - Grand Master LEDs - IP66 Waterproof - 720 Watts - 5 x 5 Flowering Footprint - 5 Year Warranty

grandmasterleds.com

this is also crazy dense diode replacement with literally no heatsinks and the price is definitely on the premium range isnt it?

i mean someone posted a link for opticled on another thread of mine and their build seemed better for me in thermal aspects definitely.

what makes you want to buy this light? what is the selling point for you?

 

[cobshopgrow]

what i hate about the diy is hand drilling the aluminium heatsinks its just too much work and have to be incredibly precise or the heatsink goes to trash. very hard work even with the drilling oil and shit. diy fixtures definitely cant be topped both in quality and price but really too much work and i just dont have the energy. maybe in a couple of years if plug and play doesnt get significantly better

youre right with the drilling.
but depending on where you are, you can get 2020 or similar extrusions relative cheap.
no overview over the recent plug n play options am out there but am sure there is nice stuff also.

 

[lusidghost]

this is also crazy dense diode replacement with literally no heatsinks and the price is definitely on the premium range isnt it?

i mean someone posted a link for opticled on another thread of mine and their build seemed better for me in thermal aspects definitely.

what makes you want to buy this light? what is the selling point for you?

Because they are very powerful and fit both of my tents. I probably won't have to change the setup now that I think about it. Also their height recommendation is 14 to 20 inches, which is great for my vertically constrained setup. I'm not really worried about excessive longevity because they pay for themselves. My Spectrum Kings are 6 years old and my HLG is around 2, and they all still work fine. If I can get 5 years out of them I won't complain. By then there will probably be a new era of lights that I'll want.

 

[crimsonecho]

youre right with the drilling.
but depending on where you are, you can get 2020 or similar extrusions relative cheap.
no overview over the recent plug n play options am out there but am sure there is nice stuff also.

yeah probably there is some nice stuff maybe in the premium range but even in that range most run too hot for my preferences like the lumatek zeus pro 1000w co2 samseedwell posted a couple of pages back.

i could buy something like that and run it at 600w but then i didnt really buy a 1000w of light which sucks.

Because they are very powerful and fit both of my tents. I probably won't have to change the setup now that I think about it. Also their height recommendation is 14 to 20 inches, which is great for my vertically constrained setup. I'm not really worried about excessive longevity because they pay for themselves. My Spectrum Kings are 6 years old and my HLG is around 2, and they all still work fine. If I can get 5 years out of them I won't complain. By then there will probably be a new era of lights that I'll want.

what are the height recommendations for the spectrum king youre using now?