War

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
So long as, to all appearances, the matter is handled internally.
It most likely will be taken care of internally by a military coup and those people would like some assurances from Uncle Sam, at least. So even if we aren't directly involved, we could be none the less. We didn't blow them up before when the Soviet Union collapsed, so I imagine many think we won't blow them up again while they get rid of Vlad.
 

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
Strictly, to be true it would need to be fact, not sentiment. Biden expressed a sentiment most of us hold, that Putin and his government have lost legitimacy. If it contained fact, it would be useful in formulating a prognosis for the leaders in Moscow.

The one fact here is that Biden said it on the air. That cat is out of the bag, and it becomes a front and center item in the national and international conversation. The fact is almost surely having real repercussions in and around Russia. It’ll be interesting to see some post-game analysis over the next years regarding what changes, if any, this event brought to the evolving timeline of the war and Vladolf’s autocracy.
there are plenty of facts that show putin is the leader of a government made up of criminals and ethically questionable business people, army officers who have no problem targeting areas they know are civilian population centers, which contain schools, hospitals, and churches. there are a lot of Ukrainian corpses, as well as russian corpses, that prove putin not only is willing to wage war on immoral, illegal pretexts, but to indiscriminately murder civilians in the pursuit of that war. How can the world pursue peace and prosperity with someone like that trying to sit at the council table as an equal? someone who tells blatant lies and dares you to contradict him, because he inherited a nuclear arsenal, and claims to not be afraid to use it.
what Biden said was true...if it doesn't pass a test for truth, then the test is in error
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
IMHO, in a couple of months Ukraine will rack up victories and be much stronger militarily and better organized than it is now. The peace will end up being the Russians leave all of Ukraine, the Ukrainians will promise not to join NATO and the EU will give a bullshit guarantee of the rights of Russians in Ukraine, free navigation of the black sea, etc. They won't like it, but will have little choice by summer. Nobody will speak of the seized money in Russia and outside they will have to deal with reparations and compensation before any money is returned.
 
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cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
there are plenty of facts that show putin is the leader of a government made up of criminals and ethically questionable business people, army officers who have no problem targeting areas they know are civilian population centers, which contain schools, hospitals, and churches. there are a lot of Ukrainian corpses, as well as russian corpses, that prove putin not only is willing to wage war on immoral, illegal pretexts, but to indiscriminately murder civilians in the pursuit of that war. How can the world pursue peace and prosperity with someone like that trying to sit at the council table as an equal? someone who tells blatant lies and dares you to contradict him, because he inherited a nuclear arsenal, and claims to not be afraid to use it.
what Biden said was true...if it doesn't pass a test for truth, then the test is in error
What Biden said was sentiment. Sincere applies; true does not.

The rest of what you say does not bear on the accuracy of what I’m saying.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
I heard that a lot of Soviet tanks and equipment went into storage in the 90's and was never maintained, not only that, they were often pilfered by soldiers, more so back when the economy collapsed. They were robbed of vital equipment and even metals like copper and brass while in storage. One Russian commander is reported to have shot himself when he found out only 10% of the tanks in the warehouse were operational. Besides that, the army was the biggest black market gas station in Russia.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
What Biden said was sentiment. Sincere applies; true does not.

The rest of what you say does not bear on the accuracy of what I’m saying.
Biden was right to call an asshole, an asshole to his face, it was not a statement of official policy, those are on paper with this administration. Sentiments are allowed and this is a molehill made into a mountain by the weak kneed, Vlad knows the score and ain't shocked, he's not clutching his pearls, but maybe his nuts.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Biden was right to call an asshole, an asshole to his face, it was not a statement of official policy, those are on paper with this administration. Sentiments are allowed and this is a molehill made into a mountain by the weak kneed, Vlad knows the score and ain't shocked, he's not clutching his pearls, but maybe his nuts.
Allowed yes, sincere yes, to be treated as fact, no.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Allowed yes, sincere yes, to be treated as fact, no.
It is not explicit policy and was not stated as such, actual régime change as policy is something a lot different. The plain fact is, this is Putin's war almost exclusively and he's a lying sonofabitch who can no more be trusted to keep his agreements than Hitler. Even if the war ends, most of the sanctions will remain until Vlad is gone, they might lighten up and could even involve direct food aid by summer if people are starving and I expect they will be. If the farmers in Russia can't get financing to plant this spring, it will get a lot worse in Russia than globally, they will be too poor to buy much food.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
I don’t know how that applies.
Sometimes rhetoric should reflect reality, if only informally, bullshit makes people cynical and there is far too much of that. Speak plainly to tyrants, show no fear and make yourself clear. If you don't, they will get the wrong idea, like Saddam did the first time around in the Gulf.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Sometimes rhetoric should reflect reality, if only informally, bullshit makes people cynical and there is far too much of that. Speak plainly to tyrants, show no fear and make yourself clear. If you don't, they will get the wrong idea, like Saddam did the first time around in the Gulf.
Those are pretty good instructions for suicide by autocrat.

And it continues to miss the point neither of you seem to grasp. Perhaps I stated it poorly.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Those are pretty good instructions for suicide by autocrat.

And it continues to miss the point neither of you seem to grasp. Perhaps I stated it poorly.
Here is an answer, Putin treats it as an explicit fact, whether Joe stated it or not and whether it is publicly announced policy or not, it makes no difference to Vlad, who will always assume it is clandestine policy anyway.

They've got Vlad by the balls and in a corner, a dangerous situation and the Ukrainians won't let him out of the vice until he leaves or they kick him out. Using nukes might not be as easy or risk free for him as people think, everybody in the army knows what that could mean, so do others with brains and families. Vlad probably knows if he crosses the red line there will be no way for him to survive and it could trigger civil war inside the army or a coup against him. When this war began I spoke of unintended consequences for Vlad, well he got them, if he crosses this red line the probabilities of unintended consequences go way up and Vlad's chances of personal survival go way down. Once thing we have going for us is Vlad wants to live and is showing all the signs of someone who personally wants to survive, even if millions of others die, just not him.
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Moring Joe provides the popular public sentiment, I think Joe voices it quite well, as do others.
Joe: Putin Has Used Nuclear Blackmail Against Us, And It's Time We Start Pushing Back

 

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
it continues to miss the point neither of you seem to grasp. Perhaps I stated it poorly.
Biden spoke from an emotional level, and made a statement he can't back up on his own...so you can't call it a fact.
sentiment is a powerful weapon, many times, it has a larger effect than the truth does. sometimes, it is the truth.
was Biden playing to the crowd? or was he sending a message to putin? does it matter? both the crowd, and putin, received a pretty direct message from that statement.
will it effect how putin prosecutes his illegal invasion? maybe, but i doubt it, putin had to be pretty aware of how Biden views him, and his war. He'll probably use it for his propaganda mill, but i doubt he'll lose any sleep over Biden's statement, or materially change his campaign in Ukraine because of it
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Biden spoke from an emotional level, and made a statement he can't back up on his own...so you can't call it a fact.
sentiment is a powerful weapon, many times, it has a larger effect than the truth does. sometimes, it is the truth.
was Biden playing to the crowd? or was he sending a message to putin? does it matter? both the crowd, and putin, received a pretty direct message from that statement.
will it effect how putin prosecutes his illegal invasion? maybe, but i doubt it, putin had to be pretty aware of how Biden views him, and his war. He'll probably use it for his propaganda mill, but i doubt he'll lose any sleep over Biden's statement, or materially change his campaign in Ukraine because of it
No. Sentiment is not fact. It can be honest, heartfelt, sincere and based in fact. But it cannot be true, correct or right.
Facts are right so long as they are fact. Sentiments are better served by the word righteous. That marks the hard boundary I’m persistently describing.
 

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
No. Sentiment is not fact. It can be honest, heartfelt, sincere and based in fact. But it cannot be true, correct or right.
Facts are right so long as they are fact. Sentiments are better served by the word righteous. That marks the hard boundary I’m persistently describing.
it CAN be true, correct, and right...it may be totally coincidental, but sometimes the two do coincide....you say that coincidence is impossible, and i say it cannot be impossible...sometimes the right thing, perhaps coincidentally, can be the true, correct thing...
i'm maintaining that that is the case in this incident, but you maintain that it has NEVER occurred in the history of humanity?
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
it CAN be true, correct, and right...it may be totally coincidental, but sometimes the two do coincide....you say that coincidence is impossible, and i say it cannot be impossible...sometimes the right thing, perhaps coincidentally, can be the true, correct thing...
i'm maintaining that that is the case in this incident, but you maintain that it has NEVER occurred in the history of humanity?
Sentiment is a wholly contained subset within the set labeled opinion. Fact and opinion do not overlap. A is opinion and B is sentiment in the following.

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While Biden’s opinion is based in fact, the opinion is not a fact. What is fact is that he aired the opinion while everyone was listening.
 
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