Never been sure about defoliating (with pics) 4x4 bed

Kind Sir

Well-Known Member
I feel people often confuse "defoliation" with simple pruning.

The idea behind defoliating is removing large fan leaves to allow the buds on the bottom to get more light, however this is foolish for a few reasons. For one, the fan leaves being removed is akin to removing solar panels from your house and being surprised your batteries aren't fully charging anymore. For two, most of those buds not getting enough light should have been pruned off in the first place. I mean, the expression "low hanging fruit" exists for a reason.


"Defoliating" won't make your small buds any larger, it'll only restrict the growth of your large buds.

Learning how to properly manage and maintain a canopy will yield far greater results than defoliation ever will. Why defoliate when your canopy is perfectly even and flush?




Personally, I am one of those people. I keep the bottom 1/3 of every plant completely bare and clean, from start until around week 3-4 of flower I continue to prune until the bottom 1/3 is bare.

The bottom 1/3 of a plant is always useless. The only thing the bottom of the plant serves is to be a habitat for pests and diseases alike. Simply keeping up on pruning your plants (any plant) will drastically reduce your chances of both pests and diseases. No place for pests to hide, and more airflow being blown through the plant.

Sure, indoors we may not need to prune as aggressively, as we're able to control both the airflow, temps, and humidity.

Outdoors? Not so much. In the low desert, I have both low humidity and low airflow. I prune a little more aggressively to compensate for this outdoors. Pics below are from a few weeks ago, you can see the leaves at the bases of the plants from the recent pruning. They've been outside since mid-June and they made it through the 110-130F summer like champs. If I didn't keep up with pruning, the bugs and heat would have absolutely destroyed these plants.

View attachment 4994629

View attachment 4994642


You can see just how bare it is at the bottoms of all my plants. Nothing good comes from the bottom of the plant, and failure to prune the bottoms of the plants can lead to issues in some cases. Stuff beneath the canopy saps resources from the actual canopy itself, and those tiny nugs underneath the canopy are usually the ones that like to throw out bananas. They don't get enough light, so in some cases they throw out bananas.

The only use the stuff on the bottom 1/3 of a plant has is for cloning




In your shoes, I'd be removing everything on the bottom 1/3 of those plants. The bottom 1/3 of those plants of yours are not only serving no purpose, but are taking resources from the canopy of your plants. Guarantee that your canopy will grow much more if you prune the crap on the bottoms. Regards.



tl;dr: Don't defoliate, only prune.
You answered another question, how deep into flower is it ok to “prune.” What about the branch here or there that is low, but is strong/healthy and manages to get pretty high up the plant? Would those be worth saving? I’ll take an updated pic after I touch it up some tonight
 

lusidghost

Well-Known Member
I feel people often confuse "defoliation" with simple pruning.

The idea behind defoliating is removing large fan leaves to allow the buds on the bottom to get more light, however this is foolish for a few reasons. For one, the fan leaves being removed is akin to removing solar panels from your house and being surprised your batteries aren't fully charging anymore. For two, most of those buds not getting enough light should have been pruned off in the first place. I mean, the expression "low hanging fruit" exists for a reason.


"Defoliating" won't make your small buds any larger, it'll only restrict the growth of your large buds.

Learning how to properly manage and maintain a canopy will yield far greater results than defoliation ever will. Why defoliate when your canopy is perfectly even and flush?




Personally, I am one of those people. I keep the bottom 1/3 of every plant completely bare and clean, from start until around week 3-4 of flower I continue to prune until the bottom 1/3 is bare.

The bottom 1/3 of a plant is always useless. The only thing the bottom of the plant serves is to be a habitat for pests and diseases alike. Simply keeping up on pruning your plants (any plant) will drastically reduce your chances of both pests and diseases. No place for pests to hide, and more airflow being blown through the plant.

Sure, indoors we may not need to prune as aggressively, as we're able to control both the airflow, temps, and humidity.

Outdoors? Not so much. In the low desert, I have both low humidity and low airflow. I prune a little more aggressively to compensate for this outdoors. Pics below are from a few weeks ago, you can see the leaves at the bases of the plants from the recent pruning. They've been outside since mid-June and they made it through the 110-130F summer like champs. If I didn't keep up with pruning, the bugs and heat would have absolutely destroyed these plants.

View attachment 4994629

View attachment 4994642


You can see just how bare it is at the bottoms of all my plants. Nothing good comes from the bottom of the plant, and failure to prune the bottoms of the plants can lead to issues in some cases. Stuff beneath the canopy saps resources from the actual canopy itself, and those tiny nugs underneath the canopy are usually the ones that like to throw out bananas. They don't get enough light, so in some cases they throw out bananas.

The only use the stuff on the bottom 1/3 of a plant has is for cloning




In your shoes, I'd be removing everything on the bottom 1/3 of those plants. The bottom 1/3 of those plants of yours are not only serving no purpose, but are taking resources from the canopy of your plants. Guarantee that your canopy will grow much more if you prune the crap on the bottoms. Regards.



tl;dr: Don't defoliate, only prune.
You’re growing outdoors.
 

ComfortCreator

Well-Known Member
You’re growing outdoors.
A great response. And I hearted his post too.

Indoors I have manifolded plants, the design calls for removing leaves strategically for a few different reasons. It works. Without the "pruning" or partial defol, it would cause multiple problems all reducing quality and yield.

Outdoors I cant imagine the watering required for a 130f desert. That's some solid work he's doing.
 

ComfortCreator

Well-Known Member
I feel people often confuse "defoliation" with simple pruning.

The idea behind defoliating is removing large fan leaves to allow the buds on the bottom to get more light, however this is foolish for a few reasons. For one, the fan leaves being removed is akin to removing solar panels from your house and being surprised your batteries aren't fully charging anymore. For two, most of those buds not getting enough light should have been pruned off in the first place. I mean, the expression "low hanging fruit" exists for a reason.


"Defoliating" won't make your small buds any larger, it'll only restrict the growth of your large buds.

Learning how to properly manage and maintain a canopy will yield far greater results than defoliation ever will. Why defoliate when your canopy is perfectly even and flush?




Personally, I am one of those people. I keep the bottom 1/3 of every plant completely bare and clean, from start until around week 3-4 of flower I continue to prune until the bottom 1/3 is bare.

The bottom 1/3 of a plant is always useless. The only thing the bottom of the plant serves is to be a habitat for pests and diseases alike. Simply keeping up on pruning your plants (any plant) will drastically reduce your chances of both pests and diseases. No place for pests to hide, and more airflow being blown through the plant.

Sure, indoors we may not need to prune as aggressively, as we're able to control both the airflow, temps, and humidity.

Outdoors? Not so much. In the low desert, I have both low humidity and low airflow. I prune a little more aggressively to compensate for this outdoors. Pics below are from a few weeks ago, you can see the leaves at the bases of the plants from the recent pruning. They've been outside since mid-June and they made it through the 110-130F summer like champs. If I didn't keep up with pruning, the bugs and heat would have absolutely destroyed these plants.

View attachment 4994629

View attachment 4994642


You can see just how bare it is at the bottoms of all my plants. Nothing good comes from the bottom of the plant, and failure to prune the bottoms of the plants can lead to issues in some cases. Stuff beneath the canopy saps resources from the actual canopy itself, and those tiny nugs underneath the canopy are usually the ones that like to throw out bananas. They don't get enough light, so in some cases they throw out bananas.

The only use the stuff on the bottom 1/3 of a plant has is for cloning




In your shoes, I'd be removing everything on the bottom 1/3 of those plants. The bottom 1/3 of those plants of yours are not only serving no purpose, but are taking resources from the canopy of your plants. Guarantee that your canopy will grow much more if you prune the crap on the bottoms. Regards.



tl;dr: Don't defoliate, only prune.
That is one incredible garden. Doesn't even matter what it is they look so good I can only imagine the final result.

A theory -- just a theory based upon my own grows and reading threads and viewing gardens...is that before stretch, there are lower branches that will grow up to the canopy BETTER if they have more light. I agree that removing leaves will just cause them to get replaced...but that 10 days before they do grow back let's those branches climb up a lot further. Indoors at least. We have limited space and light. I agree on all other pruning/defol points. Thoughts?
 

youraveragehorticulturist

Well-Known Member
Years ago I saw a video by The Grow Boss about training plants.

He found one of those "tweener" branches that was too big to prune off but too low to really get nice buds. He took that one particular branch and lollipoped or stripped off all the lower, side stuff up to a level above the lower branches on the rest of the plant.

He said that stripping all that bottom stuff off during veg would cause that branch to focus on growing "up" so it could get tall and catch up with the rest of the canopy.
 

oill

Well-Known Member
So I have like 6-7 harvests under my belt, only 1 in the last few years bc I just started growing again. I’ve topped and trained my plants 80% of the time, and have never been sure about how much to take off and when actually.

I usually try to take some lowers that definitely will die off like a week before flip. Touch up some more day or two after flip, and finish no more than a week or so after flip.

Some people take like the bottom 1/3 off, like my buddy does. What do you think of these? Granted I was neglectful earlier at the beginning of this grow, my fault.
I would lollipop up about half way. You don't want that lower popcorn bud... pointless and Hart to trim. Just strip the bottom half
 

Star Dog

Well-Known Member
I'm also of the opinion that leafs should be left alone as much as possible, removing a large leaf to expose bud sites doesn't make sense to me, but I do strip the lower 3rd.
_20210924_040545.JPG
I've not seen rot in years, I think maybe rot is more plant health related than humidity from a few leafs.

Underneath.
20210925_005550.jpg
 
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kratos015

Well-Known Member
You answered another question, how deep into flower is it ok to “prune.”
How deep into flower you can prune will be dependent on how healthy your plants are. Ideally, the bulk of your branches are pruned off before or during the flower stretch. Though sometimes I can still be too optimistic about branches reaching the canopy, only to end up chopping them off in a few weeks due to not reaching the canopy as I was hoping. The only pruning I do past the flower stretch is mostly those little budlets, but sometimes branches still get pruned in weeks 3-4.

The best part is that those shitty branches make for amazing clones. Rather than being hopelessly optimistic about a mediocre branch reaching the canopy, chop it off and clone it. Instead of that shitty branch yielding a couple grams of budlets, now you have a 1ft+ tall clone you can prep for your next grow.

Even in flower, a healthy plant is capable of taking a great deal of stress. Take a look at what the monsoon winds here did to this plant.

20210911_185357.jpg

Those were some big branches I lost, one got ripped off 5-6 weeks ago, and I lost the other one a few weeks ago. Those branches were part of the canopy and were between 2-3 ft tall. 4-6 ounces in weight I'll lose come harvest, but I'm just thankful that is the only casualty for the year because I've had much worse.

What about the branch here or there that is low, but is strong/healthy and manages to get pretty high up the plant? Would those be worth saving? I’ll take an updated pic after I touch it up some tonight

Definitely worth saving branches that make it to the canopy, but with a caveat. Those branches in question are usually pretty skinny, however the very top part of those skinny bottom branches can occasionally make it to the canopy itself.


When this happens, I only save the very top of the branch and prune everything else off.

20210911_185340.jpg

I'll get a more recent picture that is more up close than this, but hopefully this 2 week old photo illustrates the point.

Notice the branch on the very far right of the plant, almost looks like its floating now that I think about it. You can see just how much of that branch was removed, and how much was left on the branch itself. The branch had tons of little budlets and some leaves, notice how they stripped branch is mostly covered by the canopy? I stripped everything on that branch that was below the canopy, the top part of the branch that actually became a part of the canopy was left untouched.


As other posters have mentioned, removing everything on a skinny branch except for what is part of the canopy will result in better growth overall.

Think of your branches as a highway for a bus full of nutrients to "drive" on, and every bud/budlet as a "bus stop". Instead of nutrients stopping and being absorbed by every budlet on the branch, now only the top part of the branch is receiving any nutrients. This enables the top of a skinny branch to actually grow into the canopy, and produce buds thick enough to warrant being a part of the canopy.

Now, instead of that one branch being filled with dozens of tiny budlets, it has one large single cola/bud sight on it. As a result, the branch will definitely have more weight to it. Look again at the branch in question, the bud on it looks like a top nug now, despite the fact it is one of the lower bottom branches.



That is one incredible garden. Doesn't even matter what it is they look so good I can only imagine the final result.

A theory -- just a theory based upon my own grows and reading threads and viewing gardens...is that before stretch, there are lower branches that will grow up to the canopy BETTER if they have more light. I agree that removing leaves will just cause them to get replaced...but that 10 days before they do grow back let's those branches climb up a lot further. Indoors at least. We have limited space and light. I agree on all other pruning/defol points. Thoughts?
That's partly true, actually. Those lower branches can in fact reach the canopy in some cases, but only if the budlets forming on those lower branches are consistently being pruned/removed. By doing this, we're effectively redirecting the flow of energy in that particular branch. Instead of all the energy being directed to the myriad of budlets on said branch, the energy is now directed on the top most part of the branch. Now that the branch doesn't have to worry about those little budlets, and can now dedicate 100% of the energy toward reaching the canopy.

The leaves also correspond to specific branches and/or bud sights. The leaves are providing energy to what they are connected to.

Ultimately, whether sunlight or artificial light, it still cannot penetrate through leaves. Leaves absorb light, so even with the power of the sun, those budlets will never amount to anything. The instant light comes into contact with leaves, we now have energy converting as the leaves convert the light instantly.

This is why trees cool down yards, and why fuller spectrum lights lead to cooler grow rooms. Trees don't "block" light, they absorb it. So you literally do not have heat, how can you? The light was converted into energy for the plant, as opposed to heat. Similar to DE HPS/LED vs SE HPS; single bulbs have little usable spectrum, where as DE HPS is somewhat close to LED in terms of usable spectrum. The result? A single DE produces less heat in a grow room than 2 SE lights, simply because the plants are capable of absorbing more of the DE/LED light than SE light. More light converted into plant energy = less light converted to heat.

I'd much rather the light hit one of the huge fan leaves on my canopy, than hit all of those little budlets on the bottom and hope for the best. Even with unrestricted access to light, those budlets will never get very big. The reason the plant consistently makes attempts to produce budlets is for going to seed. Think about all the places you find bananas, usually on the bottom half of the plant right?

Consider the surface area of all of those tiny little budlets vs. the surface area of a large fan leaf. The fan leaf absorbing all of that light and transferring energy to the canopy will always be better than removing the fan leaf.

Not only will the budlets be incapable of absorbing the same amount of light as that fan leaf would have, but now because that light isn't being absorbed it is now becoming heat. Indoors or outdoors, the plant and light itself work the same.

We can either add some decimals in weight to those budlets, or remove the budlets and add some grams in weight to the top buds.



He found one of those "tweener" branches that was too big to prune off but too low to really get nice buds. He took that one particular branch and lollipoped or stripped off all the lower, side stuff up to a level above the lower branches on the rest of the plant.

He said that stripping all that bottom stuff off during veg would cause that branch to focus on growing "up" so it could get tall and catch up with the rest of the canopy.
Exactly this, and you can see where and how it happened in the photo I posted above. Energy has to go somewhere, so if it isn't going to those budlets anymore, it can only go to the top of the branch. As a result, the branch catches up with the canopy and becomes like that of a top bud.

This isn't just true of marijuana, but pretty much all plants. Tomatoes grow into tangled nightmares when not properly pruned, melons/cucumbers can very quickly take over your garden/yard, peppers won't grow as tall without pruning, etc.

Proper pruning is a very standard and crucial process of any garden. It promotes better quality fruits, and in greater abundance with consistency to boot. It also drastically reduces your chances of an infestation, disease, or mold/etc.

It is very easy and understandable to believe the pruning is counterintuitive, however it is crucial to the success of any garden.

Plants that aren't pruned will typically opt to preserve their genetics as opposed to producing substantial fruits. A wild tomato plant isn't going to produce fatty eye catching tomatoes; it'll grow as few low hanging fruits as it possibly can in the hopes of furthering its lineage.
 

kratos015

Well-Known Member
Outdoors I cant imagine the watering required for a 130f desert. That's some solid work he's doing.
Appreciate the kind words! Blessed to have 3 large Mesquite trees in my back yard. Shade cloth, watering 2-3 times a day, lots of mulch, a good living soil, and strain selection. Not always easy, but both enjoyable and doable.

Many people here don't attempt to grow out here in the summer or winter. Instead of trying so hard to struggle and work against my climate, I'm learning how to simply let it be and use it to my advantage. As you can imagine, most of the seeds you attempt to start outdoors will die very quickly. But the 10-20% that actually do germinate outside have given me far greater results than anything I could get in Southern California.

The plants I do get to survive out here make full use of the extra sun I get where I live now.

The 7 plants I have outside are all I got out of 50 seeds, and I did that intentionally by germinating them outdoors and keeping them out there. I knew most of them would die from the weather, that was the point. I only wanted the ones that would survive in this climate. Sure, only 7 plants out of 50. But those 7 plants laughed at the weather here and looked glorious doing it.

20210619_110502.jpg
 

Kind Sir

Well-Known Member
How deep into flower you can prune will be dependent on how healthy your plants are. Ideally, the bulk of your branches are pruned off before or during the flower stretch. Though sometimes I can still be too optimistic about branches reaching the canopy, only to end up chopping them off in a few weeks due to not reaching the canopy as I was hoping. The only pruning I do past the flower stretch is mostly those little budlets, but sometimes branches still get pruned in weeks 3-4.

The best part is that those shitty branches make for amazing clones. Rather than being hopelessly optimistic about a mediocre branch reaching the canopy, chop it off and clone it. Instead of that shitty branch yielding a couple grams of budlets, now you have a 1ft+ tall clone you can prep for your next grow.

Even in flower, a healthy plant is capable of taking a great deal of stress. Take a look at what the monsoon winds here did to this plant.

View attachment 4994693

Those were some big branches I lost, one got ripped off 5-6 weeks ago, and I lost the other one a few weeks ago. Those branches were part of the canopy and were between 2-3 ft tall. 4-6 ounces in weight I'll lose come harvest, but I'm just thankful that is the only casualty for the year because I've had much worse.




Definitely worth saving branches that make it to the canopy, but with a caveat. Those branches in question are usually pretty skinny, however the very top part of those skinny bottom branches can occasionally make it to the canopy itself.


When this happens, I only save the very top of the branch and prune everything else off.

View attachment 4994694

I'll get a more recent picture that is more up close than this, but hopefully this 2 week old photo illustrates the point.

Notice the branch on the very far right of the plant, almost looks like its floating now that I think about it. You can see just how much of that branch was removed, and how much was left on the branch itself. The branch had tons of little budlets and some leaves, notice how they stripped branch is mostly covered by the canopy? I stripped everything on that branch that was below the canopy, the top part of the branch that actually became a part of the canopy was left untouched.


As other posters have mentioned, removing everything on a skinny branch except for what is part of the canopy will result in better growth overall.

Think of your branches as a highway for a bus full of nutrients to "drive" on, and every bud/budlet as a "bus stop". Instead of nutrients stopping and being absorbed by every budlet on the branch, now only the top part of the branch is receiving any nutrients. This enables the top of a skinny branch to actually grow into the canopy, and produce buds thick enough to warrant being a part of the canopy.

Now, instead of that one branch being filled with dozens of tiny budlets, it has one large single cola/bud sight on it. As a result, the branch will definitely have more weight to it. Look again at the branch in question, the bud on it looks like a top nug now, despite the fact it is one of the lower bottom branches.





That's partly true, actually. Those lower branches can in fact reach the canopy in some cases, but only if the budlets forming on those lower branches are consistently being pruned/removed. By doing this, we're effectively redirecting the flow of energy in that particular branch. Instead of all the energy being directed to the myriad of budlets on said branch, the energy is now directed on the top most part of the branch. Now that the branch doesn't have to worry about those little budlets, and can now dedicate 100% of the energy toward reaching the canopy.

The leaves also correspond to specific branches and/or bud sights. The leaves are providing energy to what they are connected to.

Ultimately, whether sunlight or artificial light, it still cannot penetrate through leaves. Leaves absorb light, so even with the power of the sun, those budlets will never amount to anything. The instant light comes into contact with leaves, we now have energy converting as the leaves convert the light instantly.

This is why trees cool down yards, and why fuller spectrum lights lead to cooler grow rooms. Trees don't "block" light, they absorb it. So you literally do not have heat, how can you? The light was converted into energy for the plant, as opposed to heat. Similar to DE HPS/LED vs SE HPS; single bulbs have little usable spectrum, where as DE HPS is somewhat close to LED in terms of usable spectrum. The result? A single DE produces less heat in a grow room than 2 SE lights, simply because the plants are capable of absorbing more of the DE/LED light than SE light. More light converted into plant energy = less light converted to heat.

I'd much rather the light hit one of the huge fan leaves on my canopy, than hit all of those little budlets on the bottom and hope for the best. Even with unrestricted access to light, those budlets will never get very big. The reason the plant consistently makes attempts to produce budlets is for going to seed. Think about all the places you find bananas, usually on the bottom half of the plant right?

Consider the surface area of all of those tiny little budlets vs. the surface area of a large fan leaf. The fan leaf absorbing all of that light and transferring energy to the canopy will always be better than removing the fan leaf.

Not only will the budlets be incapable of absorbing the same amount of light as that fan leaf would have, but now because that light isn't being absorbed it is now becoming heat. Indoors or outdoors, the plant and light itself work the same.

We can either add some decimals in weight to those budlets, or remove the budlets and add some grams in weight to the top buds.





Exactly this, and you can see where and how it happened in the photo I posted above. Energy has to go somewhere, so if it isn't going to those budlets anymore, it can only go to the top of the branch. As a result, the branch catches up with the canopy and becomes like that of a top bud.

This isn't just true of marijuana, but pretty much all plants. Tomatoes grow into tangled nightmares when not properly pruned, melons/cucumbers can very quickly take over your garden/yard, peppers won't grow as tall without pruning, etc.

Proper pruning is a very standard and crucial process of any garden. It promotes better quality fruits, and in greater abundance with consistency to boot. It also drastically reduces your chances of an infestation, disease, or mold/etc.

It is very easy and understandable to believe the pruning is counterintuitive, however it is crucial to the success of any garden.

Plants that aren't pruned will typically opt to preserve their genetics as opposed to producing substantial fruits. A wild tomato plant isn't going to produce fatty eye catching tomatoes; it'll grow as few low hanging fruits as it possibly can in the hopes of furthering its lineage.
I have to have a little more time to read that beautiful response, as always.. but for now my concern is cloning some branches. I’m going to chop some more off right now.

I’ve read many cloning guides, but what’s your take on cloning? Especially when some branches are bigger than your average clone?
 

ComfortCreator

Well-Known Member
How deep into flower you can prune will be dependent on how healthy your plants are. Ideally, the bulk of your branches are pruned off before or during the flower stretch. Though sometimes I can still be too optimistic about branches reaching the canopy, only to end up chopping them off in a few weeks due to not reaching the canopy as I was hoping. The only pruning I do past the flower stretch is mostly those little budlets, but sometimes branches still get pruned in weeks 3-4.

The best part is that those shitty branches make for amazing clones. Rather than being hopelessly optimistic about a mediocre branch reaching the canopy, chop it off and clone it. Instead of that shitty branch yielding a couple grams of budlets, now you have a 1ft+ tall clone you can prep for your next grow.

Even in flower, a healthy plant is capable of taking a great deal of stress. Take a look at what the monsoon winds here did to this plant.

View attachment 4994693

Those were some big branches I lost, one got ripped off 5-6 weeks ago, and I lost the other one a few weeks ago. Those branches were part of the canopy and were between 2-3 ft tall. 4-6 ounces in weight I'll lose come harvest, but I'm just thankful that is the only casualty for the year because I've had much worse.




Definitely worth saving branches that make it to the canopy, but with a caveat. Those branches in question are usually pretty skinny, however the very top part of those skinny bottom branches can occasionally make it to the canopy itself.


When this happens, I only save the very top of the branch and prune everything else off.

View attachment 4994694

I'll get a more recent picture that is more up close than this, but hopefully this 2 week old photo illustrates the point.

Notice the branch on the very far right of the plant, almost looks like its floating now that I think about it. You can see just how much of that branch was removed, and how much was left on the branch itself. The branch had tons of little budlets and some leaves, notice how they stripped branch is mostly covered by the canopy? I stripped everything on that branch that was below the canopy, the top part of the branch that actually became a part of the canopy was left untouched.


As other posters have mentioned, removing everything on a skinny branch except for what is part of the canopy will result in better growth overall.

Think of your branches as a highway for a bus full of nutrients to "drive" on, and every bud/budlet as a "bus stop". Instead of nutrients stopping and being absorbed by every budlet on the branch, now only the top part of the branch is receiving any nutrients. This enables the top of a skinny branch to actually grow into the canopy, and produce buds thick enough to warrant being a part of the canopy.

Now, instead of that one branch being filled with dozens of tiny budlets, it has one large single cola/bud sight on it. As a result, the branch will definitely have more weight to it. Look again at the branch in question, the bud on it looks like a top nug now, despite the fact it is one of the lower bottom branches.





That's partly true, actually. Those lower branches can in fact reach the canopy in some cases, but only if the budlets forming on those lower branches are consistently being pruned/removed. By doing this, we're effectively redirecting the flow of energy in that particular branch. Instead of all the energy being directed to the myriad of budlets on said branch, the energy is now directed on the top most part of the branch. Now that the branch doesn't have to worry about those little budlets, and can now dedicate 100% of the energy toward reaching the canopy.

The leaves also correspond to specific branches and/or bud sights. The leaves are providing energy to what they are connected to.

Ultimately, whether sunlight or artificial light, it still cannot penetrate through leaves. Leaves absorb light, so even with the power of the sun, those budlets will never amount to anything. The instant light comes into contact with leaves, we now have energy converting as the leaves convert the light instantly.

This is why trees cool down yards, and why fuller spectrum lights lead to cooler grow rooms. Trees don't "block" light, they absorb it. So you literally do not have heat, how can you? The light was converted into energy for the plant, as opposed to heat. Similar to DE HPS/LED vs SE HPS; single bulbs have little usable spectrum, where as DE HPS is somewhat close to LED in terms of usable spectrum. The result? A single DE produces less heat in a grow room than 2 SE lights, simply because the plants are capable of absorbing more of the DE/LED light than SE light. More light converted into plant energy = less light converted to heat.

I'd much rather the light hit one of the huge fan leaves on my canopy, than hit all of those little budlets on the bottom and hope for the best. Even with unrestricted access to light, those budlets will never get very big. The reason the plant consistently makes attempts to produce budlets is for going to seed. Think about all the places you find bananas, usually on the bottom half of the plant right?

Consider the surface area of all of those tiny little budlets vs. the surface area of a large fan leaf. The fan leaf absorbing all of that light and transferring energy to the canopy will always be better than removing the fan leaf.

Not only will the budlets be incapable of absorbing the same amount of light as that fan leaf would have, but now because that light isn't being absorbed it is now becoming heat. Indoors or outdoors, the plant and light itself work the same.

We can either add some decimals in weight to those budlets, or remove the budlets and add some grams in weight to the top buds.





Exactly this, and you can see where and how it happened in the photo I posted above. Energy has to go somewhere, so if it isn't going to those budlets anymore, it can only go to the top of the branch. As a result, the branch catches up with the canopy and becomes like that of a top bud.

This isn't just true of marijuana, but pretty much all plants. Tomatoes grow into tangled nightmares when not properly pruned, melons/cucumbers can very quickly take over your garden/yard, peppers won't grow as tall without pruning, etc.

Proper pruning is a very standard and crucial process of any garden. It promotes better quality fruits, and in greater abundance with consistency to boot. It also drastically reduces your chances of an infestation, disease, or mold/etc.

It is very easy and understandable to believe the pruning is counterintuitive, however it is crucial to the success of any garden.

Plants that aren't pruned will typically opt to preserve their genetics as opposed to producing substantial fruits. A wild tomato plant isn't going to produce fatty eye catching tomatoes; it'll grow as few low hanging fruits as it possibly can in the hopes of furthering its lineage.
Great explanations! Bravo

You explained it making a lot of good sense, why lollipop, why remove lower branches, why spread and distribute across the canopy but redirect all the energy down low towards the top.

Indoors, how much depth of canopy do you think is optimum with strong lighting?

Thank you again man that is a killer garden and you can talk your game.
 

kratos015

Well-Known Member
I have to have a little more time to read that beautiful response, as always.. but for now my concern is cloning some branches. I’m going to chop some more off right now.

I’ve read many cloning guides, but what’s your take on cloning? Especially when some branches are bigger than your average clone?
I clone pretty much the same as those guides do it. Only thing I really do different is make my own cloning gel from aloe vera. The gel from the insides of aloe leaves is far more potent and effective than any cloning gel/powder that will ever exist. That said, I do have a bottle of cloning gel for when I get lazy. The downside with the aloe is that it loses all of its properties within 15-20 minutes of being exposed to oxygen, so it needs to be used immediately. Can be a pain in the ass for sure, but the roots you'll get will be the best.

Once I'm able to lift the clones by the stem, but there are still no visible roots, I leave the domes off while I continue working in the veg garden. Don't want them going from 90-100% RH down to <40%, can stress them out for a bit if so.

For large clones, I use a clear rubbermaid container as a "clone dome" so to speak. Can fit 12-18 inch clones in those things, just need to make sure they stay upright. The rubbermaid keeps the RH where you want it, and you can either keep the rubbermaid somewhere in your veg room, or even just set a few florescent bulbs on the lid of the rubbermaid.


Indoors, how much depth of canopy do you think is optimum with strong lighting?
My DE HPS was able to penetrate a good 3-4 ft of canopy before I saw any shading. I've no experience with LEDs, but do know that many of them have better penetration than a DE light these days. 3-4 ft of canopy is definitely optimal for those lights; the problem is most people are growing in tents that are 7-8 ft tall max, so a canopy that tall can experience heat stress/bleaching issues unless more vertical space is added.

Regards.
 

PadawanWarrior

Well-Known Member
Appreciate the kind words! Blessed to have 3 large Mesquite trees in my back yard. Shade cloth, watering 2-3 times a day, lots of mulch, a good living soil, and strain selection. Not always easy, but both enjoyable and doable.

Many people here don't attempt to grow out here in the summer or winter. Instead of trying so hard to struggle and work against my climate, I'm learning how to simply let it be and use it to my advantage. As you can imagine, most of the seeds you attempt to start outdoors will die very quickly. But the 10-20% that actually do germinate outside have given me far greater results than anything I could get in Southern California.

The plants I do get to survive out here make full use of the extra sun I get where I live now.

The 7 plants I have outside are all I got out of 50 seeds, and I did that intentionally by germinating them outdoors and keeping them out there. I knew most of them would die from the weather, that was the point. I only wanted the ones that would survive in this climate. Sure, only 7 plants out of 50. But those 7 plants laughed at the weather here and looked glorious doing it.

View attachment 4994770
Mine doesn't have a frowning face, but it monitors 3 different sensors. Lung room, veg tent, and flower closet.

IMG_5021.JPG
 

Star Dog

Well-Known Member
... Cut...
I've not seen rot in years, I think maybe rot is more plant health related than humidity.
I was clearing some lower growth when I thought why doesn't rot ever (ime) show itself in lower buds, its consistently more humid down inside the canopy than where colas are typically placed?

Has anyone seen rot starting on lower growth before?
 

Mari.baba

Active Member
So I have like 6-7 harvests under my belt, only 1 in the last few years bc I just started growing again. I’ve topped and trained my plants 80% of the time, and have never been sure about how much to take off and when actually.

I usually try to take some lowers that definitely will die off like a week before flip. Touch up some more day or two after flip, and finish no more than a week or so after flip.

Some people take like the bottom 1/3 off, like my buddy does. What do you think of these? Granted I was neglectful earlier at the beginning of this grow, my fault.
We all need a hair cut
 

lusidghost

Well-Known Member
I’m starting to think lollipopping a plant that will be defoliated is a waste. I did a side by side comparison and left all of the lower buds on a few of my plants this run. The nugs that formed are hard and regular colored. There are a ton of them too. The colas are all nice sized on the ones that aren’t lollipopped, so it doesn’t appear to redirect the energy. I’ll take a picture later.
 
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