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medicineman

New Member
The solution is not to rob from one group of people what they earned through their own sweat and blood, the solution is to force government to ensure that there are jobs of sufficient quantity and quality that any one that desires to get ahead can get ahead.

How do you force Government to ensure that there are jobs of sufficient Quanity and Quality, that anyone that desires to get ahead can get ahead? This would be a real good trick. And BTW, how far is ahead, I know what some head is, but ahead of what.
 

Jtoth3ustin

Well-Known Member
no what they need is to make are vote actualy count. fuck this ellectoral college bullshit....... america is soooooo fucked up right now......where im from is where kodak was formed george fuckin eastman kodak.... were turning into flint michigan just like in rogger moores movies.......6 years ago icould easily find a job. now... i cant even get a call back.......
 

Jtoth3ustin

Well-Known Member
The solution is not to rob from one group of people what they earned through their own sweat and blood, the solution is to force government to ensure that there are jobs of sufficient quantity and quality that any one that desires to get ahead can get ahead.

How do you force Government to ensure that there are jobs of sufficient Quanity and Quality, that anyone that desires to get ahead can get ahead? This would be a real good trick. And BTW, how far is ahead, I know what some head is, but ahead of what.
there is no set bar to be ahead... we have the right to pursuit happines. says it in the constitution.... but how can we be happy.. wen we have no money, no job, no means to be happy....
 

medicineman

New Member
there is no set bar to be ahead... we have the right to pursuit happines. says it in the constitution.... but how can we be happy.. wen we have no money, no job, no means to be happy....
So correct me if I'm wrong, Eastman Kodak moved it's main plant to Canada, correct? Now there are a few thousand less jobs where you live. Seems like this is not only in your area, now again answer me this. What should Government do about it?
 

Stoney McFried

Well-Known Member
No, only the last 30.
Strange, the only thing that we've been trying to the last 50 years is the approach of Big Government, perhaps you were not here in the United States for the last 50 years?
I think this is what I was alluding to.The venus project is more of a community working together,not a government.
Big Government hasn't worked, and if the critics of the gilded age are credible, (which I am finding more and more unlikely, due to their refusal to admit to their own ideology's short comings) then the capitalistic system of the gilded age didn't work. Feudalism didn't work. Unmodified Communism didn't work, and the kind of Socialism practiced in Europe sure in the hell isn't working, as the spending power of Europe's middle class continues to get destroyed by inflation, and ever increasing taxes, and thus becomes poor even as the rich of that continent continue to get richer.
Agreed.While we are a part of the world, I do think we should care for ourselves first and foremost.
Of course, I think the biggest problem is that we have let our bureaucrats get away with screwing over the country, by adhering to treaties such as WTO, NAFTA and GATT that surrender our national right to impose duties and tariffs on goods being imported to the United States to protect our jobs.
I don't know about this one.Give corporations an inch....at least when it comes to cutting corners on employee safety...recipe for disaster.
As the people that so ardently support the Unions pointed out, the manufacturing sector is what built the middle class. And they are probably, for the most part correct, but with out a strong manufacturing sector there is little need for unions to police corporations to make sure they look out for employee safety and employee well being.
Agreed.But it's all a soul killer.
Clearly, there is a difference between the mind numbing repetitiveness of office work, and the mind numbing repetitiveness of manufacturing work, in that the latter can be potentially dangerous.
I believe his focus is on the United States first.Obviously, he's got a lot to do in four years.I must say, I admire how he went right to work getting ready.
Of course, the latest hero of the big government crowd, Obama, wants to send $25 Billion to help Africa, when our own country is facing a crisis. If its necessary I'll be more than happy to pull up the exact policy page where it's stated.
I'm all for a little bit of isolationism.
The solution is not to rob from one group of people what they earned through their own sweat and blood, the solution is to force government to ensure that there are jobs of sufficient quantity and quality that any one that desires to get ahead can get ahead.

If that means giving the global community the middle finger, and resorting to isolationism we should do it. Clearly internationalism and globalization has not been working for the United States and her people.
 

stalebiscuit

Well-Known Member
Nature and a .35/.40 lever action, you could throw in the gatling gun also. Maybe the throng of buffalo hunters that decimated the herds could have had a few credits, the removal from their forever lands and the starving by unscrupolous indian agents. Yeah, there is plenty blame to go around alright, but the mass extinction came from disease. Funny how now, some of the nicest land in the US is owned by tribes. The Hopi and Navaho tribes of northern Az. have some beautiful land, but the Coal companies are strip mining it now for the electric companies. Yeah we need more coal fired plants, (Dubyas plan) whoooya.
if its their land how can companies mine it? it obviously doesnt belong to them if thats the case (forget who owned it before, you bring up a recent thing, lets discuss is)

dont cite eminent domain here (as much as i hate it), it doesnt extend to private business, so how can this be?

also, are you Indian or even know any? honestly ive only seen like three in my life (aside from my great great grandmother bing full blooded cherokee er something)

this complaining about indians being killed off is the same as blacks complaining about slavery at this point, its kinda......old

no ones holding indians back, but as far as reservations go im pretty sure they are rampant with violence and drug/alcohol addictions and are "poorer" than most areas in the nation

why is that you figure? is the government still holding them back?
 

stalebiscuit

Well-Known Member
Strange, the only thing that we've been trying to the last 50 years is the approach of Big Government, perhaps you were not here in the United States for the last 50 years?

Big Government hasn't worked, and if the critics of the gilded age are credible, (which I am finding more and more unlikely, due to their refusal to admit to their own ideology's short comings) then the capitalistic system of the gilded age didn't work. Feudalism didn't work. Unmodified Communism didn't work, and the kind of Socialism practiced in Europe sure in the hell isn't working, as the spending power of Europe's middle class continues to get destroyed by inflation, and ever increasing taxes, and thus becomes poor even as the rich of that continent continue to get richer.

Of course, I think the biggest problem is that we have let our bureaucrats get away with screwing over the country, by adhering to treaties such as WTO, NAFTA and GATT that surrender our national right to impose duties and tariffs on goods being imported to the United States to protect our jobs.

As the people that so ardently support the Unions pointed out, the manufacturing sector is what built the middle class. And they are probably, for the most part correct, but with out a strong manufacturing sector there is little need for unions to police corporations to make sure they look out for employee safety and employee well being.

Clearly, there is a difference between the mind numbing repetitiveness of office work, and the mind numbing repetitiveness of manufacturing work, in that the latter can be potentially dangerous.

Of course, the latest hero of the big government crowd, Obama, wants to send $25 Billion to help Africa, when our own country is facing a crisis. If its necessary I'll be more than happy to pull up the exact policy page where it's stated.

The solution is not to rob from one group of people what they earned through their own sweat and blood, the solution is to force government to ensure that there are jobs of sufficient quantity and quality that any one that desires to get ahead can get ahead.

If that means giving the global community the middle finger, and resorting to isolationism we should do it. Clearly internationalism and globalization has not been working for the United States and her people.
i agree with some of what you said

unions suck, communism sucks, capitalism as awesome as it is cant go completly unchecked

but i think that like you said, big government should be toned down, the governments job should be to protect its citizen and provide a few select services such as power and water.

for instance trash collection should be privatized, also this forced recycling is a crock and aids the mob (ask me why, i dare ya)
 

TheBrutalTruth

Well-Known Member
i agree with some of what you said

unions suck, communism sucks, capitalism as awesome as it is cant go completly unchecked

but i think that like you said, big government should be toned down, the governments job should be to protect its citizen and provide a few select services such as power and water.

for instance trash collection should be privatized, also this forced recycling is a crock and aids the mob (ask me why, i dare ya)
How does the forced recycling aid the mob, I'm curious about that.



And Stoney

pros·e·ly·tize (prŏs'ə-lĭ-tīz') Pronunciation Key
v. pros·e·ly·tized, pros·e·ly·tiz·ing, pros·e·ly·tiz·es

v. intr.

  1. To induce someone to convert to one's own religious faith.
  2. To induce someone to join one's own political party or to espouse one's doctrine.
v. tr.
To convert (a person) from one belief, doctrine, cause, or faith to another.
pros'e·ly·ti·za'tion (-tĭ-zā'shən) n., pros'e·ly·tiz'er n.

You're proselytizing, or attempting to induce someone to espouse your doctrine.

Edited to add.
Of course, that means that everyone here is proselytizing, except for those people that just run around hurling insults instead of expressing their opinions/beliefs/thoughts.
 

TheBrutalTruth

Well-Known Member
The solution is not to rob from one group of people what they earned through their own sweat and blood, the solution is to force government to ensure that there are jobs of sufficient quantity and quality that any one that desires to get ahead can get ahead.

How do you force Government to ensure that there are jobs of sufficient Quanity and Quality, that anyone that desires to get ahead can get ahead? This would be a real good trick. And BTW, how far is ahead, I know what some head is, but ahead of what.
You reduce it in size, scope and density. I can agree that government should have a role in ensuring that corporations don't go around cutting corners on the safety of their employees, but when the government fines the corporation it's pointless. Helping the person that was injured with a lawsuit would be more beneficial to the person that lost a limb or finger, or whatever.

Then we can also use tariff's to balance the cost of Using American Labor against the cost of using sweatshop labor in China. Make it so that it is not profitable to import goods from China to undercut the competition, by figuring out how expensive it would be to make the good or service here and then passing that as a duty on that good/service. In addition to the additional costs of transporting the goods this would make sure that our native industries are more competitive, and frankly, I see nothing wrong with that.

By helping one group of people get ahead, other American Workers, we ultimately help everyone get ahead through increased economic activity.

A dollar spent, is a dollar some one else receives to spend.

My problem is that when government steps in and takes a portion of the dollar on each transaction the dollar eventually gets taxed out of existence. Misguided views of what the economy is.

Stocks, once purchased are not money, and thus even if some one sits there and collects bundles of stocks they've already spent their money and given it to some one else. Wealth can not be destroyed, it can only be created or transferred.

Same with savings accounts, well at least CDs, which let the bank take the money and lend it out for a set duration, thus transferring your money to some one else to use for a period of time.

I think savings accounts and checkings accounts on the other hand really serve no purpose outside of saving enough or reserving enough to handle emergencies, and making paying bills easier.

:: shrugs :: Just my opinion.

Reducing the size of the government.... how do you get people with power to give up power. That's a good question MedicineMan, and not one that I have any idea to answer. I mean doing it how the Revolutionaries did it guarantees loss of life, and unlike them the gross disparity between any potential strength of a rebellion and the government is enormously weighted in favor of the government unless the State Militia can be convinced to go along with it. So the solution is to do it peacefully some how, but there is no party that can be trusted to reduce the size of government. Both the Repukes and the Demonrats just want to increase the size and scope of government in efforts to "solve" problems that they created.
 

Stoney McFried

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the word lesson.I know what it means.I'm not trying to convert.Just to get folks to think for themselves.
How does the forced recycling aid the mob, I'm curious about that.



And Stoney

pros·e·ly·tize (prŏs'ə-lĭ-tīz') Pronunciation Key
v. pros·e·ly·tized, pros·e·ly·tiz·ing, pros·e·ly·tiz·es

v. intr.

  1. To induce someone to convert to one's own religious faith.
  2. To induce someone to join one's own political party or to espouse one's doctrine.
v. tr.
To convert (a person) from one belief, doctrine, cause, or faith to another.
pros'e·ly·ti·za'tion (-tĭ-zā'shən) n., pros'e·ly·tiz'er n.

You're proselytizing, or attempting to induce someone to espouse your doctrine.

Edited to add.
Of course, that means that everyone here is proselytizing, except for those people that just run around hurling insults instead of expressing their opinions/beliefs/thoughts.
 

TheBrutalTruth

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the word lesson.I know what it means.I'm not trying to convert.Just to get folks to think for themselves.
Why would we ever want to do that when the government supposedly can do it for us? :-), lol.

Hey, Stoney, who did you say you were going to support for the presidency?
 

stalebiscuit

Well-Known Member
How does the forced recycling aid the mob, I'm curious about that.



And Stoney

pros·e·ly·tize (prŏs'ə-lĭ-tīz') Pronunciation Key
v. pros·e·ly·tized, pros·e·ly·tiz·ing, pros·e·ly·tiz·es

v. intr.

  1. To induce someone to convert to one's own religious faith.
  2. To induce someone to join one's own political party or to espouse one's doctrine.
v. tr.
To convert (a person) from one belief, doctrine, cause, or faith to another.
pros'e·ly·ti·za'tion (-tĭ-zā'shən) n., pros'e·ly·tiz'er n.

You're proselytizing, or attempting to induce someone to espouse your doctrine.

Edited to add.
Of course, that means that everyone here is proselytizing, except for those people that just run around hurling insults instead of expressing their opinions/beliefs/thoughts.
ok......where does that recyclable stuff get taken to? im sure the government doesnt have its own recycling plant?

now what you have to ask yourself is who owns those plants and do they pay the government for a cheap, efficient, tax payer backed way to get aluminum and plastic or do they get it for free (either way both of them profit and us citizens get tricked into another bullshit money grabbing scheme concealed as an environment project)?

fucked up aint it?
 

TheBrutalTruth

Well-Known Member
ok......where does that recyclable stuff get taken to? im sure the government doesnt have its own recycling plant?

now what you have to ask yourself is who owns those plants and do they pay the government for a cheap, efficient, tax payer backed way to get aluminum and plastic or do they get it for free (either way both of them profit and us citizens get tricked into another bullshit money grabbing scheme concealed as an environment project)?

fucked up aint it?
No, I don't see it that way. Better that our industries get supplied with recyclable materials than those materials just going to get tossed in a landfill. Though depending on how much profit there is in the materials it might be reasonable to expect that people that recycle get some kind of reimbursement for going through the effort.

Still, the benefits out weigh the negatives of that.




Stoney

Nah, wasn't going to comment, just thought you might have supported Ron Paul, but I guess I was wrong :: shrugs :: It happens, which is why I'm still here arguing with people and reading their opinions.

Though what would you think about being able to itemize how your tax dollars are spent. You know, basically along with the Tax Form, fill out another Form that lets you specify how your tax dollars are spent. Be kind of interesting to see how people would opt to spend them.

Of course, I don't see government doing anything like that and publishing the results, just because the results are probably going to be different from what either party would want them to be.
 

stalebiscuit

Well-Known Member
No, I don't see it that way. Better that our industries get supplied with recyclable materials than those materials just going to get tossed in a landfill. Though depending on how much profit there is in the materials it might be reasonable to expect that people that recycle get some kind of reimbursement for going through the effort.

Still, the benefits out weigh the negatives of that.




Stoney

Nah, wasn't going to comment, just thought you might have supported Ron Paul, but I guess I was wrong :: shrugs :: It happens, which is why I'm still here arguing with people and reading their opinions.

Though what would you think about being able to itemize how your tax dollars are spent. You know, basically along with the Tax Form, fill out another Form that lets you specify how your tax dollars are spent. Be kind of interesting to see how people would opt to spend them.

Of course, I don't see government doing anything like that and publishing the results, just because the results are probably going to be different from what either party would want them to be.
what benefits? ohh ya the recycling plants getting free money and the expense of the tax payers? look if you wanna recycle, cool, but dont use my tax dollars for an eco-friendly, money grabbing project, its kinda fucked up. ya know, deciding whats best for other people and their money
 

Stoney McFried

Well-Known Member
Eh, that wouldn't work.That's a lot of shit to itemize...there's no way they could do it right.
No, I don't see it that way. Better that our industries get supplied with recyclable materials than those materials just going to get tossed in a landfill. Though depending on how much profit there is in the materials it might be reasonable to expect that people that recycle get some kind of reimbursement for going through the effort.

Still, the benefits out weigh the negatives of that.




Stoney

Nah, wasn't going to comment, just thought you might have supported Ron Paul, but I guess I was wrong :: shrugs :: It happens, which is why I'm still here arguing with people and reading their opinions.

Though what would you think about being able to itemize how your tax dollars are spent. You know, basically along with the Tax Form, fill out another Form that lets you specify how your tax dollars are spent. Be kind of interesting to see how people would opt to spend them.

Of course, I don't see government doing anything like that and publishing the results, just because the results are probably going to be different from what either party would want them to be.
 
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