.Smoke from the drivers, Qboards in the sky
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.Smoke
Well-Known Member
I've thought maybe root issues but everything I harvest looks fine besides the slight discoloration from the clay.
Idk, after thinking it over what you and @FastFreddi said I'm thinking now it is a lockout.
I think I may dump half the rez and let them go @ 1.0ec for a few days.
With the timeline of it all it would make sense that I'm overfeeding in Veg and then the flip is triggering the lockout.
jonnynobody
Well-Known Member
That's a sweet little kit you got there. Nice score sir! Excellent choice returning the vivo sun. Garbage company making garbage everything. The only vivo sun products I ever got that weren't junk is the air pump with 8 port manifold and my green headlights. Every time you crack that case open you're gonna be happy with your purchase allover again. Nicely done.
I saw you are using cal mag with your jack's. How's that working for you? Your plants look fantastic in your photos! I'm having good success with 1.5-1.6 ec running 4g/jack's and 2.4g calcium nitrate PH adjusted to 5.8. Added to my 32 gallon reservoir I usually hit around 725-750 ppm. I say usually because my float valves on each of my 3 reservoirs is not at the same height. I installed 2 of them higher than another so two of my reservoirs takes another 2 or 3 gallons. Silly error on my part, but as long as I'm over 700ppm I'm happy. The tip burn seems to have disappeared with lowering my ec and omitting the additional epsom salt. I'll always run the epsom in flower, but it just seems like it caused excessive tip burn for me in veg. Your new lights look like they're producing some very favorable results. Isn't it amazing how efficient those boards are? I'd argue that my plants that were flowered under the LED's produced flowers that were harder and finished faster than the plants under my HID's. Not that it was a remarkable difference, but it was absolutely observable. HID's are officially antiquated technology, and I'm excited to say good riddance. My electric is at $700/month now. Brutal brother. Brutal. I'm hoping to get down to $450 after my LED conversion. I'm still on the fence if I'm going to yank the 1000's out yet. The 600's are definitely getting axed. I've got another 10 days or so before my new lights arrive, so I've got a little tinker time to figure it out.
How long do you plan to run plain water for prior to harvest? I did 4-7 days on my plants. Most got 7 days. 2 of my biggest only got 4. The flavor was fantastic with the 4 day plants, so I'm sticking with that moving forward. 7 days just seems unnecessary. Who wants to lose production in the home stretch? It's always a pleasure to visit your journal and see what you're up to. Compliments on the cacti! I love it!
jonnynobody
Well-Known Member
You're frying them. Your ec is too high sir. Coupled with high intensity LED's at a close distance to the canopy = fry baby fry. When you mentioned you were going to increase to 2.4 ec I had a feeling how this was going to end up. I didn't want to discourage you though with your experiment
Also, it would behoove you to stop using cal mag. You're effing up the jack's 321 ratio. You do not need more magnesium. You are throwing your ratios out of whack which is contributing to your current foliage damage. If you need more calcium you increase the calcium nitrate. Why do you need cal mag? You may even be causing some fallout mixing cal mag with the jack's system. Jack's specifically advises against using any cal mag product with their system. Just an FYI. I hate to see someone's garden not reach it's potential. This is an easily solved problem. Reduce your ec. Raise your lights. Stop the cal mag. And I suspect your damage days will be over.
Edited
Southernontariogrower
Well-Known Member
Hows the groplanner? Was looking at them.
jonnynobody
Well-Known Member
Just an example to put some rubber to the road here. 700-750ppm @ 4g jack's and 2.4g calcium nitrate PH adjusted to 5.8 with two 110w led boards dialed down to 50%. Right about 110w of illumination. I had to dial the boards down because I was getting light burn at the top. Regardless of plant size 1.5-1.6 ec in water to waste seems to rock the house:
.Smoke
Well-Known Member
I think I'm finally starting to figure that out. Less is going to be more here it seems. It's just so hard to make myself drop the feed when they look soooo horrible. But that's definitely what I am doing.You're frying them. Your ec is too high sir. Coupled with high intensity LED's at a close distance to the canopy = fry baby fry. When you mentioned you were going to increase to 2.4 ec I had a feeling how this was going to end up. I didn't want to discourage you though with your experiment
I'm giving them a 1 hour soak in some Ph'd RO water today after a good flush to let some salts leech out. After that it's 1.5ec from now on. I think I'll steal your recipe and give it a go.
At this point I'm game for anything.
My leds are now 30" above the canopy and I'm still getting 750par so that's where they're staying from now on.
Apera all the way for sure. I even regret the 2 Vivosun tents I have. Not good quality at all.
I definitely love the leds. Even though the leaves look horrible, the nugs are denser than anything I produced under hps.
My electric has dropped from 400+ to $250 so the savings have been great. I couldn't imagine paying what you do.
I haven't tried giving plain water before harvest yet, but I have stopped watering them for about 3 days prior. I find it really helps to make cleaning the hydroton a lot easier if everything is bone dry. I'll probably start to give them RO water for 4 days prior to that, giving me a full week coming off nutes before harvest from now on. I'm sure that will make a world of difference in flavor.
I can't believe Carl (the cactus) is still with me. Who knew you could grow a cactus hydroponically??? (Perlite/vermiculite)
I got it and the succulent on a whim walking through Lowes one day. They're about ready to hit their 1 year mark in the tent. Hopefully they'll be around for a while.
.Smoke
Well-Known Member
It's great. I would definitely recommend it.
Southernontariogrower
Well-Known Member
Looked pretty good, 150w throws the light. Pretty good.
.Smoke
Well-Known Member
The wifi app is great too. Set schedule and dim straight from your phone.
Southernontariogrower
Well-Known Member
your using jacks 321? Was trying to but shop didnt have, fulvic acid helps fight off stressers. Only need couple drops. I feed veg and flower when l have it. Humic acid is ok, fulvic is more pure. Youll see diference. Are you using cal nite too? And epsom?
.Smoke
Well-Known Member
I've been using the Jack's for about 2 months now. Just added the calmag a week ago to see if it helps.
Obviously it didn't.
I've just managed to burn the shit out of everything by being too heavy handed with the nutes.
I switched from using perlite/vermiculite for my buckets to hydroton, so I'm still trying to get a handle on all of it.
Can't really find to much info on anyone running drain to waste hempy hydroton, so I'm kinda making it up as I go.
jonnynobody
Well-Known Member
I understand your feeling. I've been there. Bought the t-shirt and
That's a perfect distance for the wattage of your fixtures. The photos made it looks like they were close, but measurement perception from a picture is really difficult to pin down. I remember when I got my first qb last year and had absolutely no experience with them. Tossed a 660w board in a 5x5 at full blast for 48 hours. Fried every single plant. Took 2 weeks to recover. Some of us like to learn the hard way. I'm that guy
It was a big change. Everything was weird. I've never burned plants under an HID at 77 degrees air temp. It just blew my mind man. The concept of intensity absent heat was completely foreign to me. I'd say it took me a good 1-2 months to really dial things in and understand what the plants wanted under this strange new lighting I had no experience with. The air temps were lower because the boards operated more efficiently. Temps dropped to 73-75. I started having deficiencies and slowed growth. I found out the hard way you have to supplement heat to keep your temps up around 78-82 otherwise nutrient uptake slows to a crawl while the plants are getting blasted with intense light, but with no way to use it due to the slow nutrient uptake. It was a real whirl wind for me for that period of time. I finally got the bull by the horns though and realized all that shit about LED grown plants needing more cal mag was a complete farce. The plants don't need a higher ec. The garden needs to be the proper temperature for effective nutrient uptake. That's how people run into all these crazy deficiencies then they're eye fucking deficiency charts for hours trying to figure it all out. The problem generally is the user simply doesn't know how to use the equipment properly, and I was no different than anyone else.
And to be fair the manufacturer's are no fucking help. The stupid little card that came with my LED boards advised that more cal mag would be needed with LED grown plants. Even the manufacturer doesn't know what the fuck they're talking about, so it's no mystery why there's so much confusion out there as to how to effectively and appropriately use this new light source. The manufacturer also advised a mounting height from the canopy that was incorrect. If I followed the manufacturer's instructions on my 660w board of 24-36" I'd have toasted my plants overnight. 24-36" is ideal for a 240w board, but not 660w. So the manufacturer's themselves are contributing to the problem. It's a jungle out there man. The equipment is excellent. There's just a lot of misinformation out there about how to effectively use it.
jonnynobody
Well-Known Member
You should look at #4 chunky perlite next time you're at the grow store. It's not reusable, but it's light weight and very easy to work with. Cheap too. I hated hydroton because the buckets were so effing heavy. It caused no plant growth issues but it was considerably more expensive than #4 perlite and it was very cumbersome to work with. There was a shortage about 9 months ago on #4 and I was forced to use hydroton on half my plants. I hated dealing with the hydroton plants because I couldn't put stakes in the buckets and moving them around was a bitch. They were just heavy as funk. No fun. However, if you're intention is to reuse the medium hydroton is the way to go. #4 is use and toss. #4 is cheaper than hydroton too. You get more for your money. Unless you're recycling the hydroton.
.Smoke
Well-Known Member
I loved the perlite, but I moved to the hydroton due to my drainage system. The hoses that run to the run off pump are 3/8" od. The perlite/vermiculite would always eventually break down enough to end up clogging them and causing overflows.
Not an ideal setting for an automatic feed/drain system.
I use yo yo's in flower when I need support so no worries about the stakes.
I really think the setup has some great potential, it's just me that keeps fucking things up
jonnynobody
Well-Known Member
MHP gardner on youtube showed me this little item:I loved the perlite, but I moved to the hydroton due to my drainage system. The hoses that run to the run off pump are 3/8" od. The perlite/vermiculite would always eventually break down enough to end up clogging them and causing overflows.
Not an ideal setting for an automatic feed/drain system.
I use yo yo's in flower when I need support so no worries about the stakes.
I really think the setup has some great potential, it's just me that keeps fucking things up
https://www.amazon.com/Strainer-Disposable-Filters-Elastic-Opening/dp/B06XBLFPFJ/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?dchild=1&keywords=paint+strainer+bag&qid=1620409355&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUE0WERYUTFCWVc1R00mZW5jcnlwdGVkSWQ9QTA1MjkxNzhMRUJOUlU1RkRFTUsmZW5jcnlwdGVkQWRJZD1BMDc3MTc4MEk0SDhDRDdXQ1VYUCZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX2F0ZiZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=
If you ever want to consider perlite down the road you can line your buckets with these mesh paint strainers to contain all of the debris within the bucket preventing any clogs in your drainage system. I'm actually using these on my next flower cycle. I keep clogging up my siphon pump with the dam perlite chunks that pop out of the drain hole. Actually had to take the head off one of the units this morning and dislodge a couple chunks that seized the motor. I think I need to take some of my own advice eh?
.Smoke
Well-Known Member
Those are a good idea.MHP gardner on youtube showed me this little item:
https://www.amazon.com/Strainer-Disposable-Filters-Elastic-Opening/dp/B06XBLFPFJ/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?dchild=1&keywords=paint+strainer+bag&qid=1620409355&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUE0WERYUTFCWVc1R00mZW5jcnlwdGVkSWQ9QTA1MjkxNzhMRUJOUlU1RkRFTUsmZW5jcnlwdGVkQWRJZD1BMDc3MTc4MEk0SDhDRDdXQ1VYUCZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX2F0ZiZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=
If you ever want to consider perlite down the road you can line your buckets with these mesh paint strainers to contain all of the debris within the bucket preventing any clogs in your drainage system. I'm actually using these on my next flower cycle. I keep clogging up my siphon pump with the dam perlite chunks that pop out of the drain hole. Actually had to take the head off one of the units this morning and dislodge a couple chunks that seized the motor. I think I need to take some of my own advice eh?
I had the thought of using fabric pots inside for a liner, but I really don't like the thought of having to buy new media constantly with the perlite.
I'd really like to get this hydroton ph balanced and call it good for the next 10 years
jonnynobody
Well-Known Member
Huge savings to you in the long run. You've got a good plan for efficient operations. I can dig itThose are a good idea.
I had the thought of using fabric pots inside for a liner, but I really don't like the thought of having to buy new media constantly with the perlite.
I'd really like to get this hydroton ph balanced and call it good for the next 10 years
By the way I failed to finish my thought earlier. Even though your foliage has suffered some damage it rarely hinders flower development if corrected early enough. The upper most portion of my canopy in the flower room gets beat up by the lights pretty good because of my low ceiling height. This is kind of a good and a bad thing at the same time. The good is my upper canopy has rock hard flowers that are dense. The bad is some of the fan leaves take it to the teeth pretty good. Lots of crunch edges and such. It's a reasonable sacrifice for increased productivity in my opinion. Renfro observed the same in his much larger garden. A few crunchy leaves at the top of the canopy, but the entire plant benefited as a whole and sacrificing a few fan leaves was well worth it. In a nutshell you should have a great harvest even with the foliage damage. Just keep your ec in the right range and your damage should stop while you sail through to a successful harvest. And you kinda blew my mind when you mentioned that cactus was in hydro. That's pretty cool man. I've got some holly hock, lemon balm, and wild flowers in one of my nurseries. Your cactus is way cooler
.Smoke
Well-Known Member
I've been doing a lot of thinking about things with the problems of late. I pulled an old root ball to get the bucket cleaned out for another run and I wasn't happy with the root structure. The plants are basically bypassing 80% of the hydroton to get down to the water shelf. They spin up there and root bind.
So I've decided to try running it as a flood/drain system. I made a loop/common drain for the buckets to empty into and have it on a 1/4 turn valve.
It takes 1.5 gallons to flood each bucket. I plan to let them "soak" for 3 minutes and then drain to waste for now.
I'm going to monitor the 2 empty buckets to see how quickly the hydroton drys out and use that info to find out how often I'll need to flood. I'm hoping I can get away with feeding once daily.
The clones are recovering a bit after getting a little too dry overnight but still looking pretty good.
Birthday Funk reveging
And my first Girl scout cookies that might actually live until flower.
Hopefully they will still be alive tomorrow.
Time to do some more research on flood and drain...
So I've decided to try running it as a flood/drain system. I made a loop/common drain for the buckets to empty into and have it on a 1/4 turn valve.
It takes 1.5 gallons to flood each bucket. I plan to let them "soak" for 3 minutes and then drain to waste for now.
I'm going to monitor the 2 empty buckets to see how quickly the hydroton drys out and use that info to find out how often I'll need to flood. I'm hoping I can get away with feeding once daily.
The clones are recovering a bit after getting a little too dry overnight but still looking pretty good.
Birthday Funk reveging
And my first Girl scout cookies that might actually live until flower.
Hopefully they will still be alive tomorrow.
Time to do some more research on flood and drain...
.Smoke
Well-Known Member
Stick a fork in me cause I'm fucking done.
The test buckets stayed wet for about 4 hours. That left me with the choice of using 6 gallons of water per plant per day running flood to waste, which is never gonna happen, or fucking around and making the system recirculating.
I built these buckets to make life easier and they're doing the exact opposite....so I decided to go with option #3...
I'm using a mixture of my perlite/vermiculite and the hydroton with a 7gal fabric pot as a "filter" bag inside the 3.5gal buckets to keep the drain lines from getting clogged.
I figure if the perlite wants to turn into dust fuck it. All I need is for it to work as a 'mortar" between the hydroton keeping everything wet.
I took a few pictures while preparing the first bucket.
I filled it to the brim with 1.1ec 5.7ph feed and let it soak for 30 minutes before draining.
Luckily it was just in time. The first Glue cut started showing roots so it needed planted asap.
I'll be making 3 more buckets tomorrow to go in along with the rest of the veg.
Meanwhile, the flower tent is still in recovery mode from the heavy feeds, but could look a lot worse.
The test buckets stayed wet for about 4 hours. That left me with the choice of using 6 gallons of water per plant per day running flood to waste, which is never gonna happen, or fucking around and making the system recirculating.
I built these buckets to make life easier and they're doing the exact opposite....so I decided to go with option #3...
I'm using a mixture of my perlite/vermiculite and the hydroton with a 7gal fabric pot as a "filter" bag inside the 3.5gal buckets to keep the drain lines from getting clogged.
I figure if the perlite wants to turn into dust fuck it. All I need is for it to work as a 'mortar" between the hydroton keeping everything wet.
I took a few pictures while preparing the first bucket.
I filled it to the brim with 1.1ec 5.7ph feed and let it soak for 30 minutes before draining.
Luckily it was just in time. The first Glue cut started showing roots so it needed planted asap.
I'll be making 3 more buckets tomorrow to go in along with the rest of the veg.
Meanwhile, the flower tent is still in recovery mode from the heavy feeds, but could look a lot worse.