January 6th, 2021

printer

Well-Known Member
Dominion spokesman: MyPillow CEO Mike Lindell 'is begging to be sued'
Dominion Voting Systems spokesman Michael Steel said on Sunday that MyPillow CEO Mike Lindell is “begging to be sued” over spreading unfounded claims of widespread voter fraud in the 2020 election and accusing Dominion of being complicit.

You know, every day almost feels like a slow news day without Trump. And then a ray of light shines.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Dominion spokesman: MyPillow CEO Mike Lindell 'is begging to be sued'
Dominion Voting Systems spokesman Michael Steel said on Sunday that MyPillow CEO Mike Lindell is “begging to be sued” over spreading unfounded claims of widespread voter fraud in the 2020 election and accusing Dominion of being complicit.

You know, every day almost feels like a slow news day without Trump. And then a ray of light shines.
Could it be that the my pillow guy and all the traitors arrested over the Jan 6 insurrection believe no jury would convict them? If that's their strategy could it work?
 

printer

Well-Known Member
Could it be that the my pillow guy and all the traitors arrested over the Jan 6 insurrection believe no jury would convict them? If that's their strategy could it work?
How could you lose a trial with all this evidence?
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
How could you lose a trial with all this evidence?
It should have been a slam dunk with all the evidence they had:


The end of the six-week trial for seven people who took over the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge in eastern Oregon can be summed up in two words: not guilty.

A 12-person jury found occupation leaders Ammon and Ryan Bundy not guilty Thursday of the government's primary charge: conspiracy to impede federal officers by force, threat or intimidation. Their five co-defendants — Jeff Banta, Shawna Cox, David Fry, Kenneth Medenbach and Neil Wampler — have all been found not guilty as well.

Jurors were unable to reach a verdict on Ryan Bundy's theft of government property charge.

Lisa Ludwig, standby counsel for pro se defendant Ryan Bundy, said her client and the rest of the defense attorneys had a simple approach.

"He appealed to common sense," Ludwig said.
 

printer

Well-Known Member
It should have been a slam dunk with all the evidence they had:


The end of the six-week trial for seven people who took over the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge in eastern Oregon can be summed up in two words: not guilty.

A 12-person jury found occupation leaders Ammon and Ryan Bundy not guilty Thursday of the government's primary charge: conspiracy to impede federal officers by force, threat or intimidation. Their five co-defendants — Jeff Banta, Shawna Cox, David Fry, Kenneth Medenbach and Neil Wampler — have all been found not guilty as well.

Jurors were unable to reach a verdict on Ryan Bundy's theft of government property charge.

Lisa Ludwig, standby counsel for pro se defendant Ryan Bundy, said her client and the rest of the defense attorneys had a simple approach.

"He appealed to common sense," Ludwig said.
Sometimes my posts are sarcastic, sometimes it isn't obvious I guess.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Here is how the senate MIGHT convict Trump, there is a way, by secret ballot and the senate can do it, since Chucky and the dems are making the rules and Mitch might be agreeable as would a half dozen other republican senators. This article explains how.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Donald Trump should be convicted unanimously by secret ballot | TheHill

Donald Trump should be convicted unanimously by secret ballot
BY DOUGLAS W. KMIEC, OPINION CONTRIBUTOR — 02/08/21 09:00 AM EST

The Senate trial to determine whether former President Trump should be convicted of the House impeachment alleging that the former president incited insurrection is imminent. It is not a hard question whether you supported Trump’s reelection (as I did for his support of life issues) or opposed it (also as I did for his bellicosity and divisive nature). That may seem contradictory, but it is not. Not only does it mirror the ambivalence of millions of voters, but it also reminds us that impeachment is not a popularity contest; it is a check upon the abuse of power. Pundits sometimes contend that impeachment is a political, not juridical, proceeding. That mischaracterization should be resisted or the line between law and politics becomes hopelessly confused.

No, the Senate impeachment trial is not about our personal electoral preferences; nor is the trial a relitigation of Trump’s inability to convince courts or his fellow citizens that the election was fraudulent or so infected with “irregularity” as to vitiate its outcome as “fair and free.”

There is no material disagreement between the House impeachment managers and Trump’s defense lawyers about the facts of the violent uprising in Washington on Jan. 6. The pleadings reveal the former president speaking to a patently agitated mob on the morning of the 6th. Neither side contests that Trump urged the audience to set upon the Capitol. The former president said he would be with them, and while he did not keep his promise, many who swarmed into the Capitol proclaimed that they were there upon Trump’s invitation — an invitation that resulted in the deaths of a police officer and several members of the public, widespread additional injuries and assaults that disrupted congressional proceedings mandated by the Constitution, and the destruction and theft of public property.

As jurors, it is the Senate’s duty to determine if the former president could foresee these tragic consequences. If so foreseeable, the uncontested facts establish as a matter of law an insurrection — a violent uprising challenging the government’s authority.

Since Trump has neither fact nor law on his side, he attempts to take shelter in the Constitution, arguing weakly that his speech is protected by the First Amendment or that an impeachment trial cannot be brought against a former officer. There is no precedential support for either proposition. Falsely yelling “fire” in a crowded theater is without protection, as is presidential provocation where lawlessness is imminent. With impeachment, the Framers provided for the republic to have a means of protection against a sitting president (ousting him) or a former one (keeping him from occupying office in the future). It would not be rational to think the Founders we so greatly revere would have protected us from one but not the other.

Yet, despite Trump having neither law nor fact nor common sense on his side, it is largely predicted that conviction in the Senate will lack the requisite two-thirds vote. When Trump faced the earlier impeachment, I urged that the Senate have the benefit of a secret ballot like almost all jurors have in non-impeachment matters and that all of us enjoy in primary and general elections. The wisdom of a secret ballot is even greater because of the Jan. 6 riot, the continuing threat of violence against members of Congress, and in state capitals around the country.

The Senate rules regarding the conduct of an impeachment trial, including ballot secrecy, require a simple majority (though a two-thirds majority is required for conviction). Yes, a provision (Art. I, sec. 5) authorizes either chamber in general lawmaking to make public the “yeas and nays” if one-fifth of those present so desire. This provision, however, is subordinate to the specific constitutional provisions on impeachment, including that the “sole power to try impeachments” belongs to the Senate.

The Supreme Court has made plain that it will not second-guess the rules and procedures the Senate adopts, absent an egregious disregard of due process — which a secret ballot aimed at facilitating the ability of the Senate jurors to follow their conscience free of intimidation clearly is not.

What’s more, the general lawmaking provision allowing for the yeas and nays to be specified upon request of one-fifth of the senators present explicitly excepts where “Judgment require(s) Secrecy.” This exception is the constitutional basis for hundreds of closed committee sessions, especially those related to personnel and national security matters.


It may seem odd to advocate a secret ballot. Does it not imply cowardice and unaccountability? In the mid-1950s, when still in the Senate, John Kennedy in his book, “Profiles in Courage,” praised those who acted openly and courageously against their own political or personal interests to strengthen the nation. Not everyone can meet the standards of heroes, however. Sometimes courage arises out of mutual support. Benjamin Franklin said that we either hang together or we will surely hang separately. Franklin is also well known for his answer to an inquiring Philadelphian that the convention created a “republic if (we) can keep it.” But that happy challenge is possible largely because those who designed our unique republic in the Constitutional Convention of 1787 did so in closed session. The Continental Congress did not open its proceedings until 1794.

Impeachment and secrecy are likewise historically linked. Seven secret sessions were held during the impeachment trial of former President Clinton. The Senate also closed its doors during the impeachment trial of federal judges in 1933 and 1936 and on six occasions in the 1980s.

It may be contended that even if the vote is secretly taken re Donald John Trump v. The United States House of Representatives that the information will inevitably leak. Perhaps. The effect of such improper disclosure can be avoided, of course, if the vote to convict is unanimous, or even taken by voice vote.

Impossible to conceive? Franklin’s promise of a democratic republic was, after all, contingent. Every generation is liable for the continued fulfillment of that contingency.

Douglas Kmiec is professor emeritus of constitutional law at Pepperdine University School of Law and founder of the Notre Dame Journal of Law, Ethics and Public Policy. He served as the U.S. ambassador to Malta from 2009 to 2011 and headed the Office of Legal Counsel during the Reagan and George H.W. Bush administrations.
 

schuylaar

Well-Known Member
Here is how the senate MIGHT convict Trump, there is a way, by secret ballot and the senate can do it, since Chucky and the dems are making the rules and Mitch might be agreeable as would a half dozen other republican senators. This article explains how.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Donald Trump should be convicted unanimously by secret ballot | TheHill

Donald Trump should be convicted unanimously by secret ballot
BY DOUGLAS W. KMIEC, OPINION CONTRIBUTOR — 02/08/21 09:00 AM EST

The Senate trial to determine whether former President Trump should be convicted of the House impeachment alleging that the former president incited insurrection is imminent. It is not a hard question whether you supported Trump’s reelection (as I did for his support of life issues) or opposed it (also as I did for his bellicosity and divisive nature). That may seem contradictory, but it is not. Not only does it mirror the ambivalence of millions of voters, but it also reminds us that impeachment is not a popularity contest; it is a check upon the abuse of power. Pundits sometimes contend that impeachment is a political, not juridical, proceeding. That mischaracterization should be resisted or the line between law and politics becomes hopelessly confused.

No, the Senate impeachment trial is not about our personal electoral preferences; nor is the trial a relitigation of Trump’s inability to convince courts or his fellow citizens that the election was fraudulent or so infected with “irregularity” as to vitiate its outcome as “fair and free.”

There is no material disagreement between the House impeachment managers and Trump’s defense lawyers about the facts of the violent uprising in Washington on Jan. 6. The pleadings reveal the former president speaking to a patently agitated mob on the morning of the 6th. Neither side contests that Trump urged the audience to set upon the Capitol. The former president said he would be with them, and while he did not keep his promise, many who swarmed into the Capitol proclaimed that they were there upon Trump’s invitation — an invitation that resulted in the deaths of a police officer and several members of the public, widespread additional injuries and assaults that disrupted congressional proceedings mandated by the Constitution, and the destruction and theft of public property.

As jurors, it is the Senate’s duty to determine if the former president could foresee these tragic consequences. If so foreseeable, the uncontested facts establish as a matter of law an insurrection — a violent uprising challenging the government’s authority.

Since Trump has neither fact nor law on his side, he attempts to take shelter in the Constitution, arguing weakly that his speech is protected by the First Amendment or that an impeachment trial cannot be brought against a former officer. There is no precedential support for either proposition. Falsely yelling “fire” in a crowded theater is without protection, as is presidential provocation where lawlessness is imminent. With impeachment, the Framers provided for the republic to have a means of protection against a sitting president (ousting him) or a former one (keeping him from occupying office in the future). It would not be rational to think the Founders we so greatly revere would have protected us from one but not the other.

Yet, despite Trump having neither law nor fact nor common sense on his side, it is largely predicted that conviction in the Senate will lack the requisite two-thirds vote. When Trump faced the earlier impeachment, I urged that the Senate have the benefit of a secret ballot like almost all jurors have in non-impeachment matters and that all of us enjoy in primary and general elections. The wisdom of a secret ballot is even greater because of the Jan. 6 riot, the continuing threat of violence against members of Congress, and in state capitals around the country.

The Senate rules regarding the conduct of an impeachment trial, including ballot secrecy, require a simple majority (though a two-thirds majority is required for conviction). Yes, a provision (Art. I, sec. 5) authorizes either chamber in general lawmaking to make public the “yeas and nays” if one-fifth of those present so desire. This provision, however, is subordinate to the specific constitutional provisions on impeachment, including that the “sole power to try impeachments” belongs to the Senate.

The Supreme Court has made plain that it will not second-guess the rules and procedures the Senate adopts, absent an egregious disregard of due process — which a secret ballot aimed at facilitating the ability of the Senate jurors to follow their conscience free of intimidation clearly is not.

What’s more, the general lawmaking provision allowing for the yeas and nays to be specified upon request of one-fifth of the senators present explicitly excepts where “Judgment require(s) Secrecy.” This exception is the constitutional basis for hundreds of closed committee sessions, especially those related to personnel and national security matters.


It may seem odd to advocate a secret ballot. Does it not imply cowardice and unaccountability? In the mid-1950s, when still in the Senate, John Kennedy in his book, “Profiles in Courage,” praised those who acted openly and courageously against their own political or personal interests to strengthen the nation. Not everyone can meet the standards of heroes, however. Sometimes courage arises out of mutual support. Benjamin Franklin said that we either hang together or we will surely hang separately. Franklin is also well known for his answer to an inquiring Philadelphian that the convention created a “republic if (we) can keep it.” But that happy challenge is possible largely because those who designed our unique republic in the Constitutional Convention of 1787 did so in closed session. The Continental Congress did not open its proceedings until 1794.

Impeachment and secrecy are likewise historically linked. Seven secret sessions were held during the impeachment trial of former President Clinton. The Senate also closed its doors during the impeachment trial of federal judges in 1933 and 1936 and on six occasions in the 1980s.

It may be contended that even if the vote is secretly taken re Donald John Trump v. The United States House of Representatives that the information will inevitably leak. Perhaps. The effect of such improper disclosure can be avoided, of course, if the vote to convict is unanimous, or even taken by voice vote.

Impossible to conceive? Franklin’s promise of a democratic republic was, after all, contingent. Every generation is liable for the continued fulfillment of that contingency.

Douglas Kmiec is professor emeritus of constitutional law at Pepperdine University School of Law and founder of the Notre Dame Journal of Law, Ethics and Public Policy. He served as the U.S. ambassador to Malta from 2009 to 2011 and headed the Office of Legal Counsel during the Reagan and George H.W. Bush administrations.
this would make too much sense and not give Trumpers the edge- so no.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
this would make too much sense and not give Trumpers the edge- so no.
It's a possibility that's all, but such things are usually done in a surprise, so they don't give Donald time to react. The decision on how the vote is held is up to the dems, taken at the end of the trial and it would give Mitch the cover he needs. Donald is dangerous and the sooner he is discredited and put in prison the better for the country. Anyway you look at it the republicans fucked themselves by pandering to these racist assholes for decades, they played with fire and got self immolated. The republicans are headed for a schism of sorts, probably along regional lines. They need to get rid of Trump more than the democrats do right now, no one rides the wild elephant until Donald is gone and then it will be a wild ride indeed.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Here is how the senate MIGHT convict Trump, there is a way, by secret ballot and the senate can do it, since Chucky and the dems are making the rules and Mitch might be agreeable as would a half dozen other republican senators. This article explains how.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Donald Trump should be convicted unanimously by secret ballot | TheHill

Donald Trump should be convicted unanimously by secret ballot
BY DOUGLAS W. KMIEC, OPINION CONTRIBUTOR — 02/08/21 09:00 AM EST

The Senate trial to determine whether former President Trump should be convicted of the House impeachment alleging that the former president incited insurrection is imminent. It is not a hard question whether you supported Trump’s reelection (as I did for his support of life issues) or opposed it (also as I did for his bellicosity and divisive nature). That may seem contradictory, but it is not. Not only does it mirror the ambivalence of millions of voters, but it also reminds us that impeachment is not a popularity contest; it is a check upon the abuse of power. Pundits sometimes contend that impeachment is a political, not juridical, proceeding. That mischaracterization should be resisted or the line between law and politics becomes hopelessly confused.

No, the Senate impeachment trial is not about our personal electoral preferences; nor is the trial a relitigation of Trump’s inability to convince courts or his fellow citizens that the election was fraudulent or so infected with “irregularity” as to vitiate its outcome as “fair and free.”

There is no material disagreement between the House impeachment managers and Trump’s defense lawyers about the facts of the violent uprising in Washington on Jan. 6. The pleadings reveal the former president speaking to a patently agitated mob on the morning of the 6th. Neither side contests that Trump urged the audience to set upon the Capitol. The former president said he would be with them, and while he did not keep his promise, many who swarmed into the Capitol proclaimed that they were there upon Trump’s invitation — an invitation that resulted in the deaths of a police officer and several members of the public, widespread additional injuries and assaults that disrupted congressional proceedings mandated by the Constitution, and the destruction and theft of public property.

As jurors, it is the Senate’s duty to determine if the former president could foresee these tragic consequences. If so foreseeable, the uncontested facts establish as a matter of law an insurrection — a violent uprising challenging the government’s authority.

Since Trump has neither fact nor law on his side, he attempts to take shelter in the Constitution, arguing weakly that his speech is protected by the First Amendment or that an impeachment trial cannot be brought against a former officer. There is no precedential support for either proposition. Falsely yelling “fire” in a crowded theater is without protection, as is presidential provocation where lawlessness is imminent. With impeachment, the Framers provided for the republic to have a means of protection against a sitting president (ousting him) or a former one (keeping him from occupying office in the future). It would not be rational to think the Founders we so greatly revere would have protected us from one but not the other.

Yet, despite Trump having neither law nor fact nor common sense on his side, it is largely predicted that conviction in the Senate will lack the requisite two-thirds vote. When Trump faced the earlier impeachment, I urged that the Senate have the benefit of a secret ballot like almost all jurors have in non-impeachment matters and that all of us enjoy in primary and general elections. The wisdom of a secret ballot is even greater because of the Jan. 6 riot, the continuing threat of violence against members of Congress, and in state capitals around the country.

The Senate rules regarding the conduct of an impeachment trial, including ballot secrecy, require a simple majority (though a two-thirds majority is required for conviction). Yes, a provision (Art. I, sec. 5) authorizes either chamber in general lawmaking to make public the “yeas and nays” if one-fifth of those present so desire. This provision, however, is subordinate to the specific constitutional provisions on impeachment, including that the “sole power to try impeachments” belongs to the Senate.

The Supreme Court has made plain that it will not second-guess the rules and procedures the Senate adopts, absent an egregious disregard of due process — which a secret ballot aimed at facilitating the ability of the Senate jurors to follow their conscience free of intimidation clearly is not.

What’s more, the general lawmaking provision allowing for the yeas and nays to be specified upon request of one-fifth of the senators present explicitly excepts where “Judgment require(s) Secrecy.” This exception is the constitutional basis for hundreds of closed committee sessions, especially those related to personnel and national security matters.


It may seem odd to advocate a secret ballot. Does it not imply cowardice and unaccountability? In the mid-1950s, when still in the Senate, John Kennedy in his book, “Profiles in Courage,” praised those who acted openly and courageously against their own political or personal interests to strengthen the nation. Not everyone can meet the standards of heroes, however. Sometimes courage arises out of mutual support. Benjamin Franklin said that we either hang together or we will surely hang separately. Franklin is also well known for his answer to an inquiring Philadelphian that the convention created a “republic if (we) can keep it.” But that happy challenge is possible largely because those who designed our unique republic in the Constitutional Convention of 1787 did so in closed session. The Continental Congress did not open its proceedings until 1794.

Impeachment and secrecy are likewise historically linked. Seven secret sessions were held during the impeachment trial of former President Clinton. The Senate also closed its doors during the impeachment trial of federal judges in 1933 and 1936 and on six occasions in the 1980s.

It may be contended that even if the vote is secretly taken re Donald John Trump v. The United States House of Representatives that the information will inevitably leak. Perhaps. The effect of such improper disclosure can be avoided, of course, if the vote to convict is unanimous, or even taken by voice vote.

Impossible to conceive? Franklin’s promise of a democratic republic was, after all, contingent. Every generation is liable for the continued fulfillment of that contingency.

Douglas Kmiec is professor emeritus of constitutional law at Pepperdine University School of Law and founder of the Notre Dame Journal of Law, Ethics and Public Policy. He served as the U.S. ambassador to Malta from 2009 to 2011 and headed the Office of Legal Counsel during the Reagan and George H.W. Bush administrations.
it would not be much of a secret how anybody voted if it's a unanimous verdict.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
it would not be much of a secret how anybody voted if it's a unanimous verdict.
It's the secret aspect, they still only need 67 votes and Chuck can set the rules for the vote when the time comes and even vote by ballot, by a simple majority vote. This is merely a possibility, but one that would have benefits for the dems and Mitch, it would remove Donald from future consideration and also cause a schism in the republican party diminishing their chances in 2022. Trump will most likely be convicted for the same criminal offense by a court of law a few months later and could be even be impeached again for the same thing after conviction.

Anyway ya look at it the republicans are gonna feel the pain over this and nobody rides the wild elephant while Donald is around. He would run for the GOP nomination from his prison cell and win or demand a pardon from the candidate he endorsed. If Donald is not on the ballot his base will not be energized and if he is impeached they might not show up to vote at all. The republicans are under tremendous financial pressure to smarten up and walk straight, corporations and donors won't back the crazies and Mitch knows this. Also H.R.-1 will help to eliminate dark money and that will help to kill the crazy wing of the party, even if they are the majority now.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
It's the secret aspect, they still only need 67 votes and Chuck can set the rules for the vote when the time comes and even vote by ballot, by a simple majority vote. This is merely a possibility, but one that would have benefits for the dems and Mitch, it would remove Donald from future consideration and also cause a schism in the republican party diminishing their chances in 2022. Trump will most likely be convicted for the same criminal offense by a court of law a few months later and could be even be impeached again for the same thing after conviction.

Anyway ya look at it the republicans are gonna feel the pain over this and nobody rides the wild elephant while Donald is around. He would run for the GOP nomination from his prison cell and win or demand a pardon from the candidate he endorsed. If Donald is not on the ballot his base will not be energized and if he is impeached they might not show up to vote at all. The republicans are under tremendous financial pressure to smarten up and walk straight, corporations and donors won't back the crazies and Mitch knows this. Also H.R.-1 will help to eliminate dark money and that will help to kill the crazy wing of the party, even if they are the majority now.
I get it. I was just being a dick about the wording. It struck me as being funny. A unanimous verdict by secret vote is an oxymoron.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
I get it. I was just being a dick about the wording. It struck me as being funny. A unanimous verdict by secret vote is an oxymoron.
I'm looking at all the possibilities, though acquittal is still the most probable. I'm sure Mitch and Chuck know all about the option and might even have had a private talk about it. Mitch wants Donald gone and revenge too, he did screw his majority after all and will cause the republicans a world of hurt over the next decade and perhaps destroy their "brand" completely.

My focus is on authoritarianism and justice, not much to say about Joe or policy since I agree with most of what he's doing. Besides policy is American business and you have responsible government again, I like you wait to see some justice done and some accountability for this shit. Ending in failed insurrection and sacking the capital was the capstone of the Trump presidency and it's defining historical moment.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Most of America got a good look at the impeachment managers video footage, since the news networks and others have been playing it non stop last night and this morning. The house managers hit the ball out of the park on the pretrial arguments yesterday and that was just a preview of what is to come today and tomorrow. Add to the fact that Trump will be tried on the same charges and more in a court of law and convicted with in months and you can see why there might be some heat on the republican senate! Also consider that once he is convicted of these crimes by a court of law, the dems could impeach him again on the same articles and really rub the republicans noses in the shit!

I'm hoping they will surprise Donald with a secret senate ballot on impeachment at the end of the trial. The threats and past violence would justify keeping the vote tally secret too, even if 20% whined about it. If they do Donald with a secret ballot, they will find those 11 more votes they need, though none of the republicans will be running in 2022. There are 34 senate seats up for grabs in 2022, 14 dems and 20 republicans and some senators are retiring.
 
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