No Till Living Soil Mix Questions

[NightSpider]

sphagnum peat %35

ewc %20
compost %25

pumice %15
vermiculite %5

Some composted sheep manure
-------------------------------------------------
16 cfeet total base+
8 cup kelp meal
16 cup malted barley powder
64 cup basalt dust
8 cup leonardite
8 cup fish meal

? cup gypsum
? cup lime (not dolomitic)


This is the recipe I ended up with as I considered what you guys said. Any final adjustments?



Now.
1) I found a less amended or probably not amended at all peat. The ph isnt buffered, no npk no fertilizer, just peat.

The product description reads:
0-40 mm size
ph 3.5-4.5
(decomposition) :H2-H4

Does it seem good? Anyone have any good sources to figure out an approx amount of lime to apply and how?



2) I see people's hay mulch pieces are as long approx as a finger. Mine is more fine, they are 2-3 cm long and very thin. They were made for hamster bedding. Will that cause a problem as a mulch? Like getting too dense with waterings and blocking aeration or slowly mixing into the soil below with waterings? A bit confused.

3)What can I add for chitin, cant find crustacean meal or insect frass. Do I just not any chitin amendments?

4)We discussed clover and dichondra. I have read that in pots and beds such as mine, dichondra roots tend to go deeper so I am going to do a %60 dichondra %40 clover mix. I will continue to research companion plants over time and add.

5) I figured out the alfalfa thing. Apparently in our language clover and alfalfa has the same name in daily speech. I found alfalfa pellets as feed for pets and animals. What would be more useful to me, alfalfa meal or pellets? I think Northwood has specifically stated pellets.

 

[NightSpider]

Also @Northwood , do I understand correctly:
The product I shared here isn't devoid of neem oil.
The neem meal people put in the soil as an amendment has the oil taken out?
Or do some people also put neem meal with oil as an amendment but you find that stupid?
And that is because yes neem prevents bugs and stuff but if I got a good soil life going on it is gonna keep pests in check by itself and when I put neem meal with oil in soil I also harm the bugs that would have protected me from the bad ones anyways?

 

[Northwood]

The neem meal people put in the soil as an amendment has the oil taken out?

Yeah, basically. I'm sure there is some residual oil in there because they usually cold press the seeds for extraction, but probably only a little since it's in the company's best financial interest to get as much oil out of there as possible. Here's a little video from Down to Earth's neem meal amendment product:

The only thing that I would consider questionable (stupid?) is applying pesticides in an indoor organic grow without any sign or evidence of pests present. In my opinion the best proactive way to guard against pests and other pathogens is to follow the rules that prevent their introduction into your house/room/tent to begin with, along with developing a thriving herd of diverse beneficial and benign organisms that can provide you with a first line of defense should you make a mistake and accidentally introduce nasties.

 

[MtRainDog]

Ditch the vermiculite and replace it with perlite so your base ratio is 1 part moss, 1 part ewc, and 1 part perlite. That will give you excellent porosity. Drainage is more important than water retention (vermiculite retains water). Cannibas grows best in loose, well draining soil.

 

[NightSpider]

Ditch the vermiculite and replace it with perlite so your base ratio is 1 part moss, 1 part ewc, and 1 part perlite. That will give you excellent porosity. Drainage is more important than water retention (vermiculite retains water). Cannibas grows best in loose, well draining soil.

Best I can do is up the %15 pumice %5 vermiculite to %23 pumice and %7 vermiculite. I do not wish to use perlite.
Your growing style is very close to how I want to grow @Northwood . What do you say? You said vermiculite is expensive and unnecessary but I dont mind, is it ok if cost is ignored?

 

[NightSpider]

Yeah, basically. I'm sure there is some residual oil in there because they usually cold press the seeds for extraction, but probably only a little since it's in the company's best financial interest to get as much oil out of there as possible. Here's a little video from Down to Earth's neem meal amendment product:

The only thing that I would consider questionable (stupid?) is applying pesticides in an indoor organic grow without any sign or evidence of pests present. In my opinion the best proactive way to guard against pests and other pathogens is to follow the rules that prevent their introduction into your house/room/tent to begin with, along with developing a thriving herd of diverse beneficial and benign organisms that can provide you with a first line of defense should you make a mistake and accidentally introduce nasties.

So no neem meal in the mix for me then. I will try to keep everything healthy and balanced and that is my preventative measure to pests, not neem meal. What are the ingredients and gadgets I should have laying around that I will need to use to fight against pests in case of them appearing?

 

[Northwood]

So no neem meal in the mix for me then. I will try to keep everything healthy and balanced and that is my preventative measure to pests, not neem meal. What are the ingredients and gadgets I should have laying around that I will need to use to fight against pests in case of them appearing?

It's a little sad that you can't get neem meal sold as a fertilizer/amendment. At 6-1-2 NPK it's a great source of nitrogen without fear of overloading the P. It's the high percentage of protein in neem seeds that provides the N. You're using 25% compost, so you should be getting N from that anyway though.

I agree with @MtRainDog, and the vermiculite isn't needed when peat moss has such a great water holding and wicking capacity already anyway. So does the compost. Invest the money you save by buying more perlite.

I don't have a clue I'm afraid to how much lime it would take to buffer untreated peat moss for the long term. I can only guess "quite a bit of lime!" lol

One pest you might see in your first couple grow cycles are fungus gnats because they're nearly impossible to prevent especially because it's often an amendment or soil mix that introduces them, and it takes a few grow cycles to build up a balanced predator population to keep them in check. Prepare by buying the largest pack of yellow sticky cards you can find. Hang a couple for monitoring purposes from day 1 after you've setup your space and soil. If fliers at any point in your grow begin to stick on them, then hang those sticky cards like you were decorating a Christmas tree. This wont eliminate the problem, but at least it buys time until a balanced biology is established. Plus it's much better to have gnats stuck on sticky cards than on your sticky buds.

 

[MtRainDog]

I don't have a clue I'm afraid to how much lime it would take to buffer untreated peat moss for the long term. I can only guess "quite a bit of lime!" lol

That's part of the reason i switched out straight peat moss with pro mix hp in my soil. I still add about 1C garden lime per cubic foot to mixes, AND i add 1/2 strength CalMag every water/feed. Not that every plant needs the extra CalMag, but it sure helps the plants that are picky early on chug along through veg. I don't see any ill effects with applying 1/2 strength CalMag from start to finish.

 

[myke]

That's part of the reason i switched out straight peat moss with pro mix hp in my soil. I still add about 1C garden lime per cubic foot to mixes, AND i add 1/2 strength CalMag every water/feed. Not that every plant needs the extra CalMag, but it sure helps the plants that are picky early on chug along through veg. I don't see any ill effects with applying 1/2 strength CalMag from start to finish.

Your using regular bottled /liquid calmag?

 

[MtRainDog]

Your using regular bottled /liquid calmag?

Yep. So I apply 2ml/gallon of water or feed, every time. I don't notice any salt build up, and I only recycle soil in a 1:3 ratio with fresh soil I make. The rest goes outside into the vegetable garden or compost pile.

 

[Northwood]

I don't see any ill effects with applying 1/2 strength CalMag from start to finish.

I think caution should be exercised for those doing no-till when adding any amount of highly soluble inorganic salts to their soil unless it's an emergency and a soil test confirms the cause.

CalMag is usually formulated with the nitrate forms of calcium and magnesium, along with chelated iron sometimes too. If quantities of Ca and Mg are already sufficient in your soil, then any extra not taken up by the plants may accumulate in your soil. Perhaps no issues might be seen in the first few grow cycles, but eventually the buildup may have a negative effect on the biology in your soil. Adding these salts works great with drain to waste coco/hydro grows because the medium is not reused, we don't care about fungi and bacteria, and nothing builds up because we're replacing the old nutrients left with new nutrients with every watering.

 

[MtRainDog]

I think caution should be exercised for those doing no-till when adding any amount of highly soluble inorganic salts to their soil unless it's an emergency and a soil test confirms the cause.

CalMag is usually formulated with the nitrate forms of calcium and magnesium, along with chelated iron sometimes too. If quantities of Ca and Mg are already sufficient in your soil, then any extra not taken up by the plants may accumulate in your soil. Perhaps no issues might be seen in the first few grow cycles, but eventually the buildup may have a negative effect on the biology in your soil. Adding these salts works great with drain to waste coco/hydro grows because the medium is not reused, we don't care about fungi and bacteria, and nothing builds up because we're replacing the old nutrients left with new nutrients with every watering.

I agree. If you plan on recycling soil, don't do it my way lol. I grow in 1 gal fabric pots on a SIP system. The living soil is to get them through veg healthy and happy. Flower time...I push my plants hard. Salt based nutes, fish ferts, teas. Most of the dirt gets tossed after a grow.

 

[JHake]

1) I found a less amended or probably not amended at all peat. The ph isnt buffered, no npk no fertilizer, just peat.

The product description reads:
0-40 mm size
ph 3.5-4.5
(decomposition) :H2-H4

Does it seem good? Anyone have any good sources to figure out an approx amount of lime to apply and how?

Yes, looks like pure peat.
I added 1 cup of limestome per cubic foot of soil in my mix. And half a cup of gypsum. Not sure about using the leonardite.

I used to experience lack of calcium in my grows. Top dressing with gypsum seems to have solved the problem. But then again, i use 10gal fabric pot, not a stabilized no-till setup.

What about your EWC and compost? Seems like a really high % in your mix and you should be sure its good quality.

 

[NightSpider]

It's a little sad that you can't get neem meal sold as a fertilizer/amendment. At 6-1-2 NPK it's a great source of nitrogen without fear of overloading the P. It's the high percentage of protein in neem seeds that provides the N. You're using 25% compost, so you should be getting N from that anyway though.

I agree with @MtRainDog, and the vermiculite isn't needed when peat moss has such a great water holding and wicking capacity already anyway. So does the compost. Invest the money you save by buying more perlite.

I don't have a clue I'm afraid to how much lime it would take to buffer untreated peat moss for the long term. I can only guess "quite a bit of lime!" lol

One pest you might see in your first couple grow cycles are fungus gnats because they're nearly impossible to prevent especially because it's often an amendment or soil mix that introduces them, and it takes a few grow cycles to build up a balanced predator population to keep them in check. Prepare by buying the largest pack of yellow sticky cards you can find. Hang a couple for monitoring purposes from day 1 after you've setup your space and soil. If fliers at any point in your grow begin to stick on them, then hang those sticky cards like you were decorating a Christmas tree. This wont eliminate the problem, but at least it buys time until a balanced biology is established. Plus it's much better to have gnats stuck on sticky cards than on your sticky buds.

I am convinced, no vermiculite but all my research shows that pumice would be better than perlite. What am I missing?

Also, how am I to use the alfalfa pellets when mixing the soil? Should I just get alfalfa meal and mix into soil?

Yes, looks like pure peat.
I added 1 cup of limestome per cubic foot of soil in my mix. And half a cup of gypsum. Not sure about using the leonardite.

I used to experience lack of calcium in my grows. Top dressing with gypsum seems to have solved the problem. But then again, i use 10gal fabric pot, not a stabilized no-till setup.

What about your EWC and compost? Seems like a really high % in your mix and you should be sure its good quality.

EWC

Los Ridella Californian Worm Humus - 2Kg

Los Ridella Californian Worm Humus: the worm humus is a very effective fertilizer, in addition to essential nutrients, it contains a rich bacterial flora, allow

www.hydroponics.eu

Compost


These are the best I could get my hands on, trust me... I wish I could get better ones

 

[NightSpider]

@Northwood

Hey man, everything that I listed in my last post arrived and is ready, except basalt. I have been waiting a long time and want to start to be honest, yet the basalt will arrive in a month.

What would happen if I used no rock dust?
Can I add other stuff such as semi decomposed woody bits to compensate somewhere the fungi will thrive on?
What do you recommend I do?

 

[NightSpider]

Can I add rock dust later bit by bit over time by putting it on top and water it down?

Or will I have to take the soil out and mix it in and put it back in at the end of cycle 1? It will be pretty detrimental tot he system I put in in cycle 1, will it be necessary? I would rather do this if it is necessary rather than waiting a month for rock dust.

 

[Imbald]

You can get by without the rock dust for a grow.
You could top dress some in when it comes and
till the rest in somehow before your next grow.

I'd want at least 1 1/2c. to 3 c. of total amendments per cu. ft. in my mix. I'd also go with the alfalfa meal over the pellets. But no experience with the pellets and have never read anything about there use in soil.

I'd go something like
1/2c. each kelp/neem/alfalfa.
Then topdress more amendments throughout the grow.
If no topdressing planned, then go closer to 3/4 to 1c. each initially.

Most people run:
1/3 Sphagnum Peat Moss
1/3 Aeration (pumice, perlite, lava rock, etc..)
1/3 Compost + Earthworm Castings (one of the other or a combination of the two)
Or
40/40/20% same base ingredients.
(And your sheep manure/compost should be included in that last category)
The reasoning behind the last base mix is that in ROLS, eventually your peat becomes more like compost over time.

Chitin comes from exoskeleton of arthropods and the shells of crustacean and nematode eggs.
So get a nematode population going.


Here is some liming and Gypsum notes I have saved that may be helpful. I copied and pasted.

*When raising the pH in the soil, Dolomite Lime (46-48 % calcium magnesium carbonate and 33-34 % magnesium oxide ) is the most common soil amendment for raising soil pH (reducing acidity). It’s used by both organic and conventional farmers.
Lime is used to INCREASE the soil's pH and decrease acidity. Spagnum peat causes soils ph drops, and lime will raise it up.

*Adding organic matter is an indirect method of soil pH adjustment. Organic matter “buffers” soil, especially sandy soil.
The higher the organic matter content of a soil, the more lime it takes to raise the soil pH 1 point, and the more sulfur it takes to lower the soil pH 1 point.

*Soil pH can be lowered by half a point—from 7.0 to 6.5, for example—by increasing soil nitrogen. Adding compost, manure, or organic soil amendments like alfalfa meal to the soil can help drop pH over time by increasing bacterial populations. Organic nitrogen fertilizers can be used to lower soil pH by small amounts.

*For every Cubic Foot, or 7.5 gallons, a half to one cup of a "liming agent". This should be Calcite Lime, Oyster Shell Flour or Crab/Shrimp/Lobster Meal (Calcium Carbonate) to raise the pH of the acidic peat. If you use ProMix know that it already has a small charge of lime added to it.

*Lime/OSF(oyster shell flour) Keeps soil buffered to 6.5 to uptake minerals. Brings soil ph^.
1) Oyster Shell Flour @ 1/2c/cuft
2) dolomite lime also at 1/2c/cuft.
3) or 1/4c. of each
3) powdered egg shells will also help with the
same ratio
4) mixing my oyster shell flour and dolomite lime at a 1:1 ratio. the benefit to dolomite is that it contains calcium as well as magnesium and when you combine these two things, it makes a nice calcium to magnesium ratio

Gypsum:

*Gypsum - Calcium sulfate, or Sulfate of Lime – CaS042H20, due to its sulfur content Gypsum does not raise the soil PH like lime, and there is some debate as to whether it lowers soil PH. Gypsum helps liberate potash for plant use. Gypsum can also help break up compact and clay filled soils by correcting excess amounts of magnesium in your soil. 1/2 to a full cup/cf.

*Because gypsum is the wrong form of Ca to affect pH, being Ca sulfate. Lime, oyster shell, Ag lime are all Ca carbonate that does affect pH.
You can get by with just using a Ca carbonate for both pH and as a Ca source, gypsum would not do this 'double duty'.
Even starting at neutral, organic mixes tend to the acidic because of decomposition and microbe activity.
Better to start light.
It can also be topdressed in @ flower.

 

[Northwood]

@Northwood

Hey man, everything that I listed in my last post arrived and is ready, except basalt. I have been waiting a long time and want to start to be honest, yet the basalt will arrive in a month.

What would happen if I used no rock dust?
Can I add other stuff such as semi decomposed woody bits to compensate somewhere the fungi will thrive on?
What do you recommend I do?

I never added rock dust or basalt, except some azomite for worm grit. But in a pinch, even finely crushed egg shells will serve as grit temporarily because egg shells do not break down quickly. Like @Imbald said, you can apply your rock dust to the top of the mulch later when you get it. No need to till it though, because the worms and other soil live will gradually incorporate it into the soil for you.

Fungi thrive on higher carbon organic material, so yeah decomposed wood bits would be fine, but I'd add it to the mulch/top-dress later just in case it ties up your nitrogen (assuming you want to grow in this soon). The best way to get mycorrhiza going is to get some growing plants in there as soon as you can. It hardly matters which plants, except avoid brassicas like cabbage, broccoli, etc. that don't form mycorrhizal associations.

 

[NightSpider]

New question time!

You can get by without the rock dust for a grow.
You could top dress some in when it comes and
till the rest in somehow before your next grow.

I'd want at least 1 1/2c. to 3 c. of total amendments per cu. ft. in my mix. I'd also go with the alfalfa meal over the pellets. But no experience with the pellets and have never read anything about there use in soil.

I'd go something like
1/2c. each kelp/neem/alfalfa.
Then topdress more amendments throughout the grow.
If no topdressing planned, then go closer to 3/4 to 1c. each initially.

Most people run:
1/3 Sphagnum Peat Moss
1/3 Aeration (pumice, perlite, lava rock, etc..)
1/3 Compost + Earthworm Castings (one of the other or a combination of the two)
Or
40/40/20% same base ingredients.
(And your sheep manure/compost should be included in that last category)
The reasoning behind the last base mix is that in ROLS, eventually your peat becomes more like compost over time.

Chitin comes from exoskeleton of arthropods and the shells of crustacean and nematode eggs.
So get a nematode population going.


Here is some liming and Gypsum notes I have saved that may be helpful. I copied and pasted.

*When raising the pH in the soil, Dolomite Lime (46-48 % calcium magnesium carbonate and 33-34 % magnesium oxide ) is the most common soil amendment for raising soil pH (reducing acidity). It’s used by both organic and conventional farmers.
Lime is used to INCREASE the soil's pH and decrease acidity. Spagnum peat causes soils ph drops, and lime will raise it up.

*Adding organic matter is an indirect method of soil pH adjustment. Organic matter “buffers” soil, especially sandy soil.
The higher the organic matter content of a soil, the more lime it takes to raise the soil pH 1 point, and the more sulfur it takes to lower the soil pH 1 point.

*Soil pH can be lowered by half a point—from 7.0 to 6.5, for example—by increasing soil nitrogen. Adding compost, manure, or organic soil amendments like alfalfa meal to the soil can help drop pH over time by increasing bacterial populations. Organic nitrogen fertilizers can be used to lower soil pH by small amounts.

*For every Cubic Foot, or 7.5 gallons, a half to one cup of a "liming agent". This should be Calcite Lime, Oyster Shell Flour or Crab/Shrimp/Lobster Meal (Calcium Carbonate) to raise the pH of the acidic peat. If you use ProMix know that it already has a small charge of lime added to it.

*Lime/OSF(oyster shell flour) Keeps soil buffered to 6.5 to uptake minerals. Brings soil ph^.
1) Oyster Shell Flour @ 1/2c/cuft
2) dolomite lime also at 1/2c/cuft.
3) or 1/4c. of each
3) powdered egg shells will also help with the
same ratio
4) mixing my oyster shell flour and dolomite lime at a 1:1 ratio. the benefit to dolomite is that it contains calcium as well as magnesium and when you combine these two things, it makes a nice calcium to magnesium ratio

Gypsum:

*Gypsum - Calcium sulfate, or Sulfate of Lime – CaS042H20, due to its sulfur content Gypsum does not raise the soil PH like lime, and there is some debate as to whether it lowers soil PH. Gypsum helps liberate potash for plant use. Gypsum can also help break up compact and clay filled soils by correcting excess amounts of magnesium in your soil. 1/2 to a full cup/cf.

*Because gypsum is the wrong form of Ca to affect pH, being Ca sulfate. Lime, oyster shell, Ag lime are all Ca carbonate that does affect pH.
You can get by with just using a Ca carbonate for both pH and as a Ca source, gypsum would not do this 'double duty'.
Even starting at neutral, organic mixes tend to the acidic because of decomposition and microbe activity.
Better to start light.
It can also be topdressed in @ flower.

I have read about finding quality compost with a diverse microbe population, making extracts and applying it to a soil with a good recipe with some plants and in time that ecosystem will balance itself out. I cannot do that right now but I can order some types of nematodes and critters. Any idea which would benefit me?

biological control products | Biobest

@Northwood

Also, I have some questions about my existing grow.

They are Green Crack and Gelato from MSNL seeds. They flower for approximately 8 weeks and they just completed their 4th week. They have been mainlined, I just wanted to try and explore it. The soil was not an ideal mix. Remember that problem where I used bagged soil that compacted and was shit then I filled the spaces with ewc and compost when I transplanted into the bigger pots? I havent fed them bottled nutes since. Last week I saw one of the plants was extremely pale compared to the others and the bottom leaves were yellowing so I put some kelp meal, fish meal and some alfalfa pellets that I crushed in water with my hands on top of the pot and watered them in. But as I do not know much, I thought maybe by the time those would be available it would be too late and added a little bit of General Organics Grow to the water. I applied more to the pale plant but some to the other plants too because they had not been top fed before and the growth had been slowing down. Voila, 3 days after the feeding we have problems. I fed really little amounts of them I believe. Also, the scrog net had to be removed since we had to quickly move the grow operation and I wasnt sure if I could put it back on so the plants' canopy area shrunk a bit as the branches got closer together.


This is what the tent looked like 5 days ago. Notice the pale one in the right side to the back.



This is what it looks like now.


I will call the plant on the left back lb, left front lf, and the right ones rb and rf also.

***********************************
Lets start with LB.
Today I realized LB turned a hermie and some pollen sacks were burst. I picked off the ones I could but I am guessing I am gonna have seedy shitty weed? Is there anything I can do?

This is LB, I took this photo as an example of what my Gelato buds look like at week 4. I am an inexperienced grower so I have no idea if it is ok or not haha. In any of these photos if you see smth thats wrong that I have not asked, please do not hesitate to warn me.



The yellowing and purpling on LB is less than LF which I will show in a minute but LB also has this:

In the middle of the photo there are brown spots on the sides of the leaf.
*******************
LF

This had green leaves with purpleish areas to the tip 2 days ago. It is like this today :')



****************************
RB - No problems with RF so did not put it here.

The photos are of RB, the one that was originally the only pale one a week ago. Just putting it here so you can tell me if there is anything wrong with the plants or the buds.

 

[NightSpider]

The photos were before watering today.

I have at hand: Gypsum, lime, leonardite, ewc, compost, alfalfa pellets, kelp meal, fish meal, malted barley,
General Organics Grow, Bloom, Root Booster, Bloom Booster, Fulvic Acid product of GO, Rhizotonic. These havent been used for a while except that one time 3 days ago when I fed Grow.